kewlj
kewlj
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Zcore13
May 16th, 2021 at 12:05:55 PM permalink
In another thread that I am not allowed to mention, nor participate on (the only time someone has been so restricted BTW), a member made a number of completely false and erroneous statements that I would like to correct. Since the checks and balance concept has been restricted to me, I will start a new thread to correct these falsehoods.

Erroneous statement to follow:

"On the other hand, in a game like Blackjack, there is no option to NOT bet, so obviously flat betting is not going to work either - and anyone who says that flat betting will work at Blackjack is not worthy of past, present or future consideration as to anything he or she might have to say. There are such lost souls.
The only conceivable way flat betting might work at Blackjack is if one player were at the table and then alerted another to pop in and jack the bet, but even then, effectively, that is not flat betting as the two players are working as a team and the introduction of the second player is just like increasing the over all bet".


First of all there IS an option to not bet in blackjack. It is called "wonging out". Basically exiting a negative count or situation for a more favorable one. Combined with "wonging in", to a more favorable situation CAN provide the player an advantage while flat betting.

Second, there are other methods of advantage play regarding blackjack, hole-carding for one, that allows a player to gain and advantage while still flat betting. As a matter of fact there are more players gaining an advantage at blackjack via non card counting methods than card counting.

Furthermore, in regards to card counting, while I personally am not a proponent of level 2 and 3 counts and/or counts with side counts, for players who have access to decent single deck games, an advantage can be gained just by employing count (and many index plays) and while flat betting. the advantage is very slim though so most players will still use a small spread, but it is possible to play with an advantage while flat betting. Only serious player I know of that has access and plays these kinds of single deck games is Moses. Maybe he will say something.

So the idea that "anyone who says that flat betting will work at Blackjack is not worthy of past, present or future consideration as to anything he or she might have to say" is complete nonsense. I would conclude the opposite, that the person making such a statement is the lost soul making stuff up as he goes along.
Wellbush
Wellbush
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May 16th, 2021 at 12:37:09 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

In another thread that I am not allowed to mention, nor participate on (the only time someone has been so restricted BTW), a member made a number of completely false and erroneous statements that I would like to correct. Since the checks and balance concept has been restricted to me, I will start a new thread to correct these falsehoods.

Erroneous statement to follow:

"On the other hand, in a game like Blackjack, there is no option to NOT bet, so obviously flat betting is not going to work either - and anyone who says that flat betting will work at Blackjack is not worthy of past, present or future consideration as to anything he or she might have to say. There are such lost souls.
The only conceivable way flat betting might work at Blackjack is if one player were at the table and then alerted another to pop in and jack the bet, but even then, effectively, that is not flat betting as the two players are working as a team and the introduction of the second player is just like increasing the over all bet".


First of all there IS an option to not bet in blackjack. It is called "wonging out". Basically exiting a negative count or situation for a more favorable one. Combined with "wonging in", to a more favorable situation CAN provide the player an advantage while flat betting.

Second, there are other methods of advantage play regarding blackjack, hole-carding for one, that allows a player to gain and advantage while still flat betting. As a matter of fact there are more players gaining an advantage at blackjack via non card counting methods than card counting.

Furthermore, in regards to card counting, while I personally am not a proponent of level 2 and 3 counts and/or counts with side counts, for players who have access to decent single deck games, an advantage can be gained just by employing count (and many index plays) and while flat betting. the advantage is very slim though so most players will still use a small spread, but it is possible to play with an advantage while flat betting. Only serious player I know of that has access and plays these kinds of single deck games is Moses. Maybe he will say something.

So the idea that "anyone who says that flat betting will work at Blackjack is not worthy of past, present or future consideration as to anything he or she might have to say" is complete nonsense. I would conclude the opposite, that the person making such a statement is the lost soul making stuff up as he goes along.


Why are you quoting MDawg and responding to his post that was not directed at you? I thought you agreed not to do that.

Also didn't OnceDear warn you once and for all not not create any more threads related to or about MDawg, and yet here you go again.

You are once again circumventing your agreement.

You can't just leave it alone and go your way? Does MDawg ever mention you in any way?
Only gamble 'a little' for fun, or, if 'you know' you can win.
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
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Thanks for this post from:
Keeneonerainman
May 16th, 2021 at 12:38:33 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

In another thread that I am not allowed to mention, nor participate on (the only time someone has been so restricted BTW), a member made a number of completely false and erroneous statements that I would like to correct. Since the checks and balance concept has been restricted to me, I will start a new thread to correct these falsehoods.

Erroneous statement to follow:

"On the other hand, in a game like Blackjack, there is no option to NOT bet, so obviously flat betting is not going to work either - and anyone who says that flat betting will work at Blackjack is not worthy of past, present or future consideration as to anything he or she might have to say. There are such lost souls.
The only conceivable way flat betting might work at Blackjack is if one player were at the table and then alerted another to pop in and jack the bet, but even then, effectively, that is not flat betting as the two players are working as a team and the introduction of the second player is just like increasing the over all bet".


First of all there IS an option to not bet in blackjack. It is called "wonging out". Basically exiting a negative count or situation for a more favorable one. Combined with "wonging in", to a more favorable situation CAN provide the player an advantage while flat betting.

Second, there are other methods of advantage play regarding blackjack, hole-carding for one, that allows a player to gain and advantage while still flat betting. As a matter of fact there are more players gaining an advantage at blackjack via non card counting methods than card counting.

Furthermore, in regards to card counting, while I personally am not a proponent of level 2 and 3 counts and/or counts with side counts, for players who have access to decent single deck games, an advantage can be gained just by employing count (and many index plays) and while flat betting. the advantage is very slim though so most players will still use a small spread, but it is possible to play with an advantage while flat betting. Only serious player I know of that has access and plays these kinds of single deck games is Moses. Maybe he will say something.

So the idea that "anyone who says that flat betting will work at Blackjack is not worthy of past, present or future consideration as to anything he or she might have to say" is complete nonsense. I would conclude the opposite, that the person making such a statement is the lost soul making stuff up as he goes along.



These were useful and informative statements about BJ. But. your post would have been improved, IMO, if you had stripped out the hostility and contentiousness. You obviously are expressing anger and derision because you are feuding with someone, and most of us really don't care about your feud. I am a fan of your expertise, though.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
coachbelly
coachbelly
Joined: Oct 21, 2013
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May 16th, 2021 at 12:49:06 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

First of all there IS an option to not bet in blackjack. It is called "wonging out". Basically exiting a negative count or situation for a more favorable one. Combined with "wonging in", to a more favorable situation CAN provide the player an advantage while flat betting.



What is the player's mathematical advantage for hands that he bets zero?

How soon after the count turns negative should the player exit?

How can the player recognize a favorable situation at a table
where he has not been playing?

Are you proposing back-counting? Is that tolerated?
kewlj
kewlj
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May 16th, 2021 at 12:59:30 PM permalink
Quote: Wellbush



You are once again circumventing your agreement.



No, I am not! I agreed not to post in the Mdawg thread, nor engage directly with him. i did neither.

I never agreed and never would agree to not correct false statements by anybody regarding blackjack and Las Vegas.
kewlj
kewlj
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May 16th, 2021 at 1:09:16 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

What is the player's mathematical advantage for hands that he bets zero?



For hands that the player bets zero his advantage is obviously zero. BUT the player advantage (or house advantage) is not based on any single hand. It is cumulative of the total hands played. And with this strategy, the player will be playing a +EV (player advantage game) WHILE FLAT BETTING, contrary to what was erroneously posted.

Quote: coachbellyHow soon after the count turns negative should the player exit?[/q



Studies done by Don Schlesinger suggest a optimal departure points depending on conditions, rules, how far into the shoe. I, personally use somewhere between TC -1 and TC -2, being a little more tolerant if we are near the shuffle point.

Quote: coachbellyHow can the player recognize a favorable situation at a table where he has not been playing? [/q



For me it is counting. I track a second table when I can. For others it may be the availability of a hole-card opportunity. But regardless, even if I can't track a second table due to circumstances, leaving a negative count table for a fresh table starting a zero is in itself favorable to playing more extreme negative counts.

Quote: coachbellyAre you proposing back-counting? Is that tolerated? [/q



Some places, depends on circumstances. It is just another tool in the arsenal. A "legitimate" tool to gain an advantage.

Wellbush
Wellbush
Joined: Mar 23, 2021
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May 16th, 2021 at 1:10:17 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

No, I am not! I agreed not to post in the Mdawg thread, nor engage directly with him. i did neither.

I never agreed and never would agree to not correct false statements by anybody regarding blackjack and Las Vegas.



Agreement: "2. Kewlj will stay out of this thread. He may not comment on it in other threads."
Only gamble 'a little' for fun, or, if 'you know' you can win.
kewlj
kewlj
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May 16th, 2021 at 1:11:51 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

These were useful and informative statements about BJ. But. your post would have been improved, IMO, if you had stripped out the hostility and contentiousness. You obviously are expressing anger and derision because you are feuding with someone, and most of us really don't care about your feud. I am a fan of your expertise, though.



Hostility and anger aren't the right words, gordon888. I do not like misinformation, especially when the person has a history of making stuff up. Such misinformation should be corrected and that is all I am trying to do.
kewlj
kewlj
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May 16th, 2021 at 1:15:00 PM permalink
Quote: Wellbush

Agreement: "2. Kewlj will stay out of this thread. He may not comment on it in other threads."



Then Wizard can suspend me, if he needs to, for correcting false information, which is 100% contrary to what this forum was started for. But I am not going to sit silently and give someone a pass to post false information.
Wellbush
Wellbush
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May 16th, 2021 at 1:27:49 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I do not like misinformation, especially when the person has a history of making stuff up.


Why are you continuing to make this thread all about MDawg?
Only gamble 'a little' for fun, or, if 'you know' you can win.

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