ksdjdj
ksdjdj
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Ayecarumba
December 23rd, 2019 at 2:46:01 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

On the house side, is preferential shuffling cheating? I consider the house tracking the count, then shuffling anytime a shoe is above a certain positive value for the player "cheating".


Quote: jjjoooggg

Thats not cheating. No deception


I think preferential shuffling is cheating*** or at least deceptive, if the casinos' don't have signage at the table that says the game is subject to preferential shuffling.
***: At the very minimum it is "unfair" to the vast majority of player's in the casino.

Think about it, if you are a "basic strategy rec player (non-counter)" flat betting in a 0.5% house edge game , you are supposed to lose about 0.5 units every 100 bets. But with the casino worried about a potential counter at the table, you (the 'rec player') are "unknowingly"^^^ being exposed to a game with a basic strategy house edge significantly worse than 0.5%, every time there is a preferential shuffle (in my book that is a type of cheating).

^^^: As of my last visit (2014) the casinos' did NOT put up any signs like "this table is subject to preferential shuffling (or similar)"
When I was in Vegas in 2014 on a holiday I was always 'flat betting the minimum' but also counting cards, and when the true count got somewhere between +1 to +2 'they shuffled the deck'. I then commented "you seem to be shuffling early" and the dealer said something like "sometimes we do that" and no further explanation (i didn't push it, because I was just playing for fun and to pass the time).
I went to other BJ tables, and over about an 8 hour period the same thing happened about 6+ more times whenever the 'true count' was between +1 and +2 (no signage about preferential shuffling at those table either)
Note: when the count was neutral or negative, they played through all the way to the 'cut-card'.

Read the link here >>> https://harvardjsel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2019/02/HLS102.pdf
<<< from about page 71 to about page 74, as it has a good argument about casino "cheating" when it does things like preferential shuffling.

Important: I am generally NOT against a casino shuffling early if they do it by moving the cut card to reduce penetration, but if they do it so that they have a "bigger house edge" under the guise of "AP countermeasures", then yes I think it is cheating, especially if they don't post signage that they may do this.

I understand casinos' are a business, but there are plenty of countermeasures they can use besides preferential shuffling to reduce the effect that "potential APs" have on their bottom line

Edit/update (about 304 pm): FYI, I already had this opinion (or a similar) about "preferential shuffling" before I read the "harvardjsel.com" link above.
Last edited by: ksdjdj on Dec 23, 2019
Zcore13
Zcore13
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:48:36 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Really!! I consider the right to NOT BET the same as ‘calling for a new shuffle’.

A casino has the majority of its games set so that they player is always at a disadvantage’! I assume you know this?



That's similar to a situation I come across almost every day. A dealer makes a mistake, skips a player, forgets to deal themself a card, etc. I have the dealer finish the deal which is now out of normal order and then ask each player, "Would you like to take your bet back or play against the dealer up card?". Depending on the up card and player cards, some take their bets back, some want to continue to play. The riundcendcand people play the next hand. Sometimes when someone loses they want their money back for the hand because the cards were out of order from the last hand. I have to tell them, i can't do that, you chose to play knowing the situation.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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December 23rd, 2019 at 2:57:05 PM permalink
Preferential shuffling is artificially and intentionally manipulating the house edge of the game outside of the rules of the game or published house edge. So is placing a cut card in a single deck game rather than a defined number of rounds, that is preferential shuffling by policy regardless of the player. By that definition it would meet the legal definition of cheating but nevada gaming has ruled otherwise, which shouldn't surprise anyone, depending on gaming regulation integrity is like counting on a public defender to go to bat for you to the same extent as a hired attorney.
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 3:07:59 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Preferential shuffling is artificially and intentionally manipulating the house edge of the game outside of the rules of the game or published house edge. So is placing a cut card in a single deck game rather than a defined number of rounds, that is preferential shuffling by policy regardless of the player. By that definition it would meet the legal definition of cheating but nevada gaming has ruled otherwise, which shouldn't surprise anyone, depending on gaming regulation integrity is like counting on a public defender to go to bat for you to the same extent as a hired attorney.



In theory, the dealer could dump positive half shoes making the game even more -ev. But you dont see this often. Because casinos dont make money waiting for a reshuffle. The average player plays basic strategy poorly and doesnt spread to take advantage of positive shoes.
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ksdjdj
ksdjdj
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December 23rd, 2019 at 3:23:23 PM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

In theory, the dealer could dump positive half shoes making the game even more -ev. But you dont see this often. Because casinos dont make money waiting for a reshuffle. The average player plays basic strategy poorly and doesnt spread to take advantage of positive shoes.


I agree that what you said is true.

But if you are unlucky enough to be playing at a table that does a preferential shuffle, then you are being "cheated" ***

***: even if you are a 'poor player' that stands on 12 to 16 against all dealer up-cards, you are still being "cheated", IMO.
Minty
Minty
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ksdjdj
December 23rd, 2019 at 4:50:29 PM permalink
I think it's ok casinos have the right to back off and bar people and I've said it before because otherwise we'd get worse conditions as players. There are many things casinos can do that cross the line into cheating and I'd agree with Mission's previous post about what they are for the most part. Cheating could mean many things depending on if you're looking at it from a legal standpoint or from an ethical or moral standpoint.
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jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 8:05:51 PM permalink
Quote: Minty

I think it's ok casinos have the right to back off and bar people and I've said it before because otherwise we'd get worse conditions as players. There are many things casinos can do that cross the line into cheating and I'd agree with Mission's previous post about what they are for the most part. Cheating could mean many things depending on if you're looking at it from a legal standpoint or from an ethical or moral standpoint.



Happened to me only twice. I only played a few hands and the dealer confessed. He was upset that they were doing this.

Another time i was playing without spreading with the count. I heard the dealer a table over laugh and look at us. I kept losing but she said “you are lucky” after i lost alot. The dealer told me that i should have left when i was ahead. I was never ahead. The dealer looked at the amount on the table not factoring in pay in before the dealer switched into the table

A 3rd time i cant prove but its a casino thats already been caught by the authorities They owe alot of money for exclusivity rights.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Dec 23, 2019
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Zcore13
Zcore13
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December 23rd, 2019 at 10:13:04 PM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

Happened to me only twice. I only played a few hands and the dealer confessed. He was upset that they were doing this.

Another time i was playing without card counting. I heard the dealer a table over laugh and look at us. I kept losing but she said “you are lucky” after i lost alot. The dealer told me that i should have left when i was ahead. I was never ahead. The dealer looked at the amount on the table not factoring in pay in before the dealer switched into the table

A 3rd time i cant prove but its a casino thats already been caught by authorities They owe alot of money for exclusivity rights.



You can't prove any of them.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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December 23rd, 2019 at 10:26:05 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

You can't prove any of them.


ZCore13



Im not going to go into specifics discussed between the dealers and me

2 times are very rare occurrences over my play lifetime. Its not something a player should worry about.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Dec 24, 2019
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TomG
TomG
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December 24th, 2019 at 6:16:46 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I would not call that the Casino trying to cheat a player. To me that's a decision by an individual employee, not systematic cheating by a casino. That's like saying an entire police force is corrupt because 1 officer took a bribe. Or, a hospital murders patients because a nurse poisoned one.



Great analogy with the hospital killing a patient. If it was done out in the open for everyone to see, and the people higher up than the nurse agree it was correct and do not do anything about it until law enforcement steps in, and then by all accounts the nurse keeps their job -- then I would say the nurse was not acting as an individual, but as an agent of the hospital.

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