Lawmakers push for increase in W-2G threshold
Quote: darkozFree play is generally NOT included in win/loss statements.
From my own personal experience of a few dozen casinos on the East Coast I have witnessed only ONE casino that did (which leads me to believe they were incorrect in their approach)
Anecdotally I had one casino suggest they would claim my taking freeplay resulted in my winning an unfair amount of money (on multiple cards)
I quickly printed out all the online win/loss statements which to almost everyone stated a total loss for the year. I was quite prepared to ascertain in court how either their own documentation was incorrect and how their own evidence supported any type of wins.
Of course I did win quite a large amount. But not according to their own tracking system (and you had to keep the card in while using freeplay so there was no method for falsifying wins from freeplay)
The threat of the court case never came to fruition. I am certain their attorneys realized they were not going to win.
At any rate, my suspicion as to why freeplay is not included is because IRS rules state cash won from freeplay is NOT income as long as its a rebate on prior purchases (ex. Gambling that earns offers predicated on prior play) just like frequent flier miles are not income.
For example, if you wanted to show ALL the expenses from a particular airline (30 flights lets say totalling $30,000) you would not then subtract the value of 2 flights from frequent flier miles and list your expenses as only $28,000.
I am so confused.
Quote: bobbartopI am so confused.
Its simple.
Freeplay and winnings from freeplay are NOT included in win/loss statements
If I lose $1000 cash and then using freeplay win back $2000 my win/loss statement will say I lost $1000.
I have only seen one casino do it the other way. And of course I have not been to every casino.
Quote: darkozIts simple.
Freeplay and winnings from freeplay are NOT included in win/loss statements
If I lose $1000 cash and then using freeplay win back $2000 my win/loss statement will say I lost $1000.
I have only seen one casino do it the other way. And of course I have not been to every casino.
I couldn't swear to it one way or the other. I THOUGHT that my win/losses reflected it. Maybe they didn't. You're making me think. But it still seems to me that it should be reflected. I buy in at a video poker machine, $100 out of my pocket. Download $50 freeplay. Cash out later for $500. I won $400. No? If I cash out for zero, I lost $100, for the day, for my "session".
I am not disagreeing with you, I just feel that I should be disagreeing. I read Mission's article and the subject came up, and it sounded like he was not 100% clear on it either.
I know there are as many tracking systems as there are casinos, or so it seems. I do not understand how a system could separate what you called "winnings from free play". Still confused.
Quote: bobbartopI couldn't swear to it one way or the other. I THOUGHT that my win/losses reflected it. Maybe they didn't. You're making me think. But it still seems to me that it should be reflected. I buy in at a video poker machine, $100 out of my pocket. Download $50 freeplay. Cash out later for $500. I won $400. No? If I cash out for zero, I lost $100, for the day, for my "session".
I am not disagreeing with you, I just feel that I should be disagreeing. I read Mission's article and the subject came up, and it sounded like he was not 100% clear on it either.
I know there are as many tracking systems as there are casinos, or so it seems. I do not understand how a system could separate what you called "winnings from free play". Still confused.
Mission says in the article he hasnt researched it but makes the same assumptions you do. That cash won from freeplay should be counted.
I actually made the same assumptions myself. But with all the players cards at multiple casinos I have done I can confidently say they dont except for one casino.
That one casino is the Sands in PA. The other singular difference between the Sands and all the others is their system is real-time updated (24 hour gaming day) that is you can see you wins and losses on a daily basis. Everywhere else you have to wsit till the end of the year for a cumulative total.
Now are you saying you do not understand how a system could seperate freeplay wins from a technical point or from a logical standpoint.
Technically its no different than how many casinos you do not earn slot points or players club perks when using freeplay. The software recognizes you are utilizing complimentary credits. That same software can also not track wins and losses from complimentary credits.
From a logical standpoint the concept is more difficult to understand. I will do that another post. Im going back to bed :)
Indeed, I didn’t know whether it counts or not because I’ve never paid any great attention to W/L statements and I also know systems have the potential for other irregularities anyway. Unless, as is (understandably) the case with DarkOz, if you’re not paying attention to 100% of the activity on a card, you’d probably never really know.
Logically, I also don’t know how the way it apparently is makes sense. I can understand why free play would not count as a, “Loss,” since it has no cash value, but one would think money won is money won. Maybe since the free play has no cash value the thinking is money won therefrom shouldn’t count towards W/L.
Quote: Mission146Thanks for reading guys!
Indeed, I didn’t know whether it counts or not because I’ve never paid any great attention to W/L statements and I also know systems have the potential for other irregularities anyway. Unless, as is (understandably) the case with DarkOz, if you’re not paying attention to 100% of the activity on a card, you’d probably never really know.
Logically, I also don’t know how the way it apparently is makes sense. I can understand why free play would not count as a, “Loss,” since it has no cash value, but one would think money won is money won. Maybe since the free play has no cash value the thinking is money won therefrom shouldn’t count towards W/L.
That may have something to do with it.
Freeplay either has a cash value or it doesnt. Difficult to claim both. Most casinos opt for claiming it has no value.
If freeplay has no value it cannot be converted into value (an interesting alchemical notion).
For your article one reason win/loss statements are difficult to assess is because of mistakes from the player.
Lets say you accidentally left your card in a slot machine and the person sitting after you wins $100,000. He realizes your card is in the machine and pulls it out.
It still will show up on your win/loss statement that you won a $100,000. Imagine knowing you lost a grand or two and at the end of year finding out the casino claims you won $100,000?
While the person seated will show his ID and get paid, the casino will not go into the software metadata and alter the win showing on the other players account. And after a year has passed no one is even gonna understand why your account would show such a win.
So i general they are just too untrustworthy for accurate accounting
Quote: Mission146Here's my article on this for LCB for anyone interested:
https://lcb.org/news/editorials/w-2g-threshold-increase
A minor point in your article. CTR's are not required to be filed on cash paid out via a taxable jackpot ($1200 or more) because it is already being accounted for in the W2G.
Quote: DRichA minor point in your article. CTR's are not required to be filed on cash paid out via a taxable jackpot ($1200 or more) because it is already being accounted for in the W2G.
Thanks! I’ll add a comment with that correction later!
Quote: FCBLComishGreat article Mission. Spot on with everything that I know is correct from this side of the table.
The years that I have kept a log like I should, on TM, they were exact to the penny. And free play was figured in.
Quote: bobbartopThe years that I have kept a log like I should, on TM, they were exact to the penny. And free play was figured in.
It could be so. As I said I am familiar with a casino that calculates the freeplay.
And I certainly havent visited every casino
Quote: darkozIt could be so. As I said I am familiar with a casino that calculates the freeplay.
And I certainly havent visited every casino
No, I hear ya, Dark Oz. At the same time the casino I mentioned was right to the penny, there was another one out here, well, I don't know wtf they were doing. Their win/loss didn't match my records at all.
And check this out. One year I was lazy and didn't write down nuthin. I spent a lot of time at a certain casino, and at the end of the year my GUT told me I was probably down a little, or close to even. I opened up my win/loss envelope and freaked out. They got me down as $30k to the GOOD! What? Oh really, I told them, you don't think I would know if I won $30 thousand or not? I threw a fit. The subsequent discussions were not amicable. lol And I didn't change their minds. They were sticking to their story. One problem that came out of that incident was that I was no longer under the radar. No longer Mr.Incognito.
Quote: DRichA minor point in your article. CTR's are not required to be filed on cash paid out via a taxable jackpot ($1200 or more) because it is already being accounted for in the W2G.
You should write an article, blog post, or make a thread about all the intricacies about CTRs, W2Gs, SARs, MTLs(?), etc. Or screw that, just send it to me. :) If I'm not mistaken, isn't it true that cashing out a TITO at an ATM machine doesn't get counted towards the $10k+ threshold for a CTR or MTL? Or at least there's some weird funky stuff when it comes to those things, right?
Quote: RSAs far as W/L statements and how "freeplay" is determined on there....in my experience, although limited, it seemed like freeplay was counted as just cash going into the machine. So if I put $1,000 cash and load $500 freeplay, I play for a while, and cash out $1,300, then the W/L statement would show a $200 loss. Even though, in reality, I'd be up $300.
That is a distinct possibility.
In which case you most likely could win thousands and still show an overall "loss" on your statement
Quote: RSIf I'm not mistaken, isn't it true that cashing out a TITO at an ATM machine doesn't get counted towards the $10k+ threshold for a CTR or MTL? Or at least there's some weird funky stuff when it comes to those things, right?
That is incorrect. Cashing out from the kiosk still is a component of the $10k cashout fro CTR. Th problem is that it is very difficult to track and probably won't be accounted for. The slot accounting department may catch it the next day and issue the CTR, but I don't think it happens often. It is the slot accounting department that usually initiates the CTR's for $10k of bills going into the slot machines.
If someone wanted to avoid that, put the bills in before putting your slot card in.
Quote: DRichThat is incorrect. Cashing out from the kiosk still is a component of the $10k cashout fro CTR. Th problem is that it is very difficult to track and probably won't be accounted for. The slot accounting department may catch it the next day and issue the CTR, but I don't think it happens often. It is the slot accounting department that usually initiates the CTR's for $10k of bills going into the slot machines.
If someone wanted to avoid that, put the bills in before putting your slot card in.
That cant possibly be correct. Maybe the law states it should be but there is no way its tracked.
Cashing out at the kiosk no id is asked for.
At the slots i can use other people's cards.
And if its circumvented so easily by simply putting the money in first (which probably is done moreso anyway. I dont know how many times I have seen a ploppie put their money in, sit down, take a spin or two, then suddenly rush into their pocket for their players card they forgot to insert not to mention how many times I have seen people insert their card, it doesn't register and they play for 10 minutes oblivious to it) that it simply cannot be any serious CTR examination being done by any casino when it comes to titos
Quote: darkozThat cant possibly be correct. Maybe the law states it should be but there is no way its tracked.
Cashing out at the kiosk no id is asked for.
At the slots i can use other people's cards.
It is correct, I have lots of experience with it (I teach classes on this stuff). It is very difficult to track kiosk cashouts but casinos are supposed to.
BTW, you don't have to provide ID for every CTR filed. If you are a known player and they have your information on file they don't need to see it again. Many player clubs scan your ID when you sign up and they can use that.
Quote: DRichIt is correct, I have lots of experience with it (I teach classes on this stuff). It is very difficult to track kiosk cashouts but casinos are supposed to.
BTW, you don't have to provide ID for every CTR filed. If you are a known player and they have your information on file they don't need to see it again. Many player clubs scan your ID when you sign up and they can use that.
So in your opinion the casinos are monitoring each and every tito redemption machine in their casino, logging by face who is doing each transaction, going back over past redemptions throughout the day to uncover any structuring and then reviewing photo ID scanned in their systems during signup (even assuming the player signed up for a player card in the first place.) In order to effectuate a match to file a CRT?
Quote: darkozSo in your opinion the casinos are monitoring each and every tito redemption machine in their casino, logging by face who is doing each transaction, going back over past redemptions throughout the day to uncover any structuring and then reviewing photo ID scanned in their systems during signup (even assuming the player signed up for a player card in the first place.) In order to effectuate a match to file a CRT?
No, they are required to track any known redemption's. If you are playing with your card in and you cash out, that TITO can now be connected to you. When it is redeemed at the kiosk the assumption is that it is you cashing it out. Many systems have reports saying how much in TITO tickets were cashed out at the cage or kiosk by particular patrons.
Quote: DRichNo, they are required to track any known redemption's. If you are playing with your card in and you cash out, that TITO can now be connected to you. When it is redeemed at the kiosk the assumption is that it is you cashing it out. Many systems have reports saying how much in TITO tickets were cashed out at the cage or kiosk by particular patrons.
I know you are going by your experience.
But I have my own as well.
Many times I have dozens of titos from multiple players cards I have utilized freeplay on. If I cashed out those titos individually one at a time it could take an inordinate amount of time.
At first I had the thought that they were tracking titos just as you say. But I can tell you now I regularly combine tito in cashouts from multiple people players cards.
This has never triggered in 6 years a single problem.
I can tell you that during at least 2 "wars" (where the casino was actively trying to stop my team) some vouchers had been flagged and even with inserting them into a redemption machine with other players unflagged cards there was no issue (trust me after I realized the vouchers were flagged I assumed the worst but turned out I had nothing to worry about)
That is the flagged vouchers did not lead them in any way to the unflagged cards (i kept using those for additional days or weeks)
I am not saying they cant do it. I am saying that in my experience they dont do it
Quote: darkoz
This has never triggered in 6 years a single problem.
I am not saying they cant do it. I am saying that in my experience they dont do it
I don't know what type of problems you are referring to with regards to CTR's.
Secondly, I can tell you for sure that some casinos do aggregate TITO's cashed in at the kiosk with TITO's cashed in at the cage and file a CTR if they exceed $10k in the gaming day.
Quote: DRichI don't know what type of problems you are referring to with regards to CTR's.
Secondly, I can tell you for sure that some casinos do aggregate TITO's cashed in at the kiosk with TITO's cashed in at the cage and file a CTR if they exceed $10k in the gaming day.
Maybe i need to be more clear.
I use freeplay from say 4 different players cards.
I cash those titos out in a single transaction at the redemption machine.
That should show 4 different players all did an aggregate single cashout.
Even with some of the casinos I hit knowing full well what I do, never has a casino noticed this.
I find it difficult to believe they are monitoring tito cashout for CTR requirements but dont notice freeplay from multiple cards all being combined into one tito.
And since you say they match up tito info with players cards that were inserted I find it even more difficult to comprehend
Quote: darkoz
I find it difficult to believe they are monitoring tito cashout for CTR requirements but dont notice freeplay from multiple cards all being combined into one tito.
I believe it. All they are looking at after the fact is what TITO tickets were cashed and who they belonged to. I doubt the protocol from the kiosk to the system conveys that they were batched together,
You may be confusing CTR's with SAR's (Suspicious Activity Reports). What you are describing might be considered suspicious but not meet the requirements for CTR's. SAR's kick in at $5,000 and it is against the law for them to notify you that a SAR has been filed on you.
I saw this article based on a press release from AGA (apparently they go down this path annually).
https://vegasadvantage.com/time-for-irs-to-increase-w2g-slot-reporting-limit/
And the Review Journal followed up on this.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/business-columns/inside-gaming/treasury-irs-silent-on-raising-the-threshold-for-jackpot-paperwork-2136224/
Noticed that for their June 2020 plea they added less interaction between staff and customer as a better health policy. At the risk of getting political, if the Senate goes blue after the runoffs, this actually might have a chance of happening.
Quote: rsactuaryReviving this thread:
I saw this article based on a press release from AGA (apparently they go down this path annually).
https://vegasadvantage.com/time-for-irs-to-increase-w2g-slot-reporting-limit/
And the Review Journal followed up on this.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/business-columns/inside-gaming/treasury-irs-silent-on-raising-the-threshold-for-jackpot-paperwork-2136224/
Noticed that for their June 2020 plea they added less interaction between staff and customer as a better health policy. At the risk of getting political, if the Senate goes blue after the runoffs, this actually might have a chance of happening.
Not going to happen. Remember, the IRS tried to lower it to $600 last year.
Quote: DRichNot going to happen. Remember, the IRS tried to lower it to $600 last year.
The IRS doesn't make the laws, they just enforce them. Right now the law says you have to claim every dollar of profit, and that's why the IRS tried to lower it.
If Congress changes it upward, the IRS has no choice but abide by that.
Quote: ChumpChangeI've seen too many card counters on YouTube flashing over $50K for the weekend trip.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Quote: rsactuaryThe IRS doesn't make the laws, they just enforce them. Right now the law says you have to claim every dollar of profit, and that's why the IRS tried to lower it.
If Congress changes it upward, the IRS has no choice but abide by that.
I understand that. My point is that I don't believe it will be raised this year. If you do, I would be open to a wager.
Quote: DRichI understand that. My point is that I don't believe it will be raised this year. If you do, I would be open to a wager.
You must first deposit $50,000 at the Luxor cage.
I want three judges to be unanimous that the legislation has passed. At least one of my picks will be a Holocaust denier.
Then we can talk!
Quote: darkozYou must first deposit $50,000 at the Luxor cage.
I want three judges to be unanimous that the legislation has passed. At least one of my picks will be a Holocaust denier.
Then we can talk!
LOL!
No wagers are going to be made on this. I am somewhat hopeful if the Dems win the senate that this can get pushed through.
Quote: darkozYou must first deposit $50,000 at the Luxor cage.
I want three judges to be unanimous that the legislation has passed. At least one of my picks will be a Holocaust denier.
Then we can talk!
Sorry, I am poor and unemployed right now so $50,000 is out of the question. Let'smake it $45,000 and I want MDawg as a judge.
Quote: DRichSorry, I am poor and unemployed right now so $50,000 is out of the question. Let'smake it $45,000 and I want MDawg as a judge.
Deal!
First I want you to compile three years of past legislation. Photos, articles, commentary, counterpoint
And these must be photos of FAKE legislation.
We will hire independent counterfeit experts but they must believe the faked legislation is actually real legislation!
However since the legislation must be fake then ipso facto it cannot be real so calling it real but fake means I win
Don't worry about the actual legislation we are wagering on. That is future legislation and cannot be guaranteed. We must only use past legislation to decide this wager
