bobbartop
bobbartop
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May 27th, 2019 at 9:56:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Free play is generally NOT included in win/loss statements.

From my own personal experience of a few dozen casinos on the East Coast I have witnessed only ONE casino that did (which leads me to believe they were incorrect in their approach)

Anecdotally I had one casino suggest they would claim my taking freeplay resulted in my winning an unfair amount of money (on multiple cards)

I quickly printed out all the online win/loss statements which to almost everyone stated a total loss for the year. I was quite prepared to ascertain in court how either their own documentation was incorrect and how their own evidence supported any type of wins.

Of course I did win quite a large amount. But not according to their own tracking system (and you had to keep the card in while using freeplay so there was no method for falsifying wins from freeplay)

The threat of the court case never came to fruition. I am certain their attorneys realized they were not going to win.

At any rate, my suspicion as to why freeplay is not included is because IRS rules state cash won from freeplay is NOT income as long as its a rebate on prior purchases (ex. Gambling that earns offers predicated on prior play) just like frequent flier miles are not income.

For example, if you wanted to show ALL the expenses from a particular airline (30 flights lets say totalling $30,000) you would not then subtract the value of 2 flights from frequent flier miles and list your expenses as only $28,000.




I am so confused.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
darkoz
darkoz
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May 27th, 2019 at 10:14:21 PM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I am so confused.



Its simple.

Freeplay and winnings from freeplay are NOT included in win/loss statements

If I lose $1000 cash and then using freeplay win back $2000 my win/loss statement will say I lost $1000.

I have only seen one casino do it the other way. And of course I have not been to every casino.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
bobbartop
bobbartop
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Mission146
May 28th, 2019 at 2:49:58 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Its simple.

Freeplay and winnings from freeplay are NOT included in win/loss statements

If I lose $1000 cash and then using freeplay win back $2000 my win/loss statement will say I lost $1000.

I have only seen one casino do it the other way. And of course I have not been to every casino.




I couldn't swear to it one way or the other. I THOUGHT that my win/losses reflected it. Maybe they didn't. You're making me think. But it still seems to me that it should be reflected. I buy in at a video poker machine, $100 out of my pocket. Download $50 freeplay. Cash out later for $500. I won $400. No? If I cash out for zero, I lost $100, for the day, for my "session".

I am not disagreeing with you, I just feel that I should be disagreeing. I read Mission's article and the subject came up, and it sounded like he was not 100% clear on it either.

I know there are as many tracking systems as there are casinos, or so it seems. I do not understand how a system could separate what you called "winnings from free play". Still confused.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
darkoz
darkoz
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onenickelmiracleMission146
May 28th, 2019 at 3:25:09 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I couldn't swear to it one way or the other. I THOUGHT that my win/losses reflected it. Maybe they didn't. You're making me think. But it still seems to me that it should be reflected. I buy in at a video poker machine, $100 out of my pocket. Download $50 freeplay. Cash out later for $500. I won $400. No? If I cash out for zero, I lost $100, for the day, for my "session".

I am not disagreeing with you, I just feel that I should be disagreeing. I read Mission's article and the subject came up, and it sounded like he was not 100% clear on it either.

I know there are as many tracking systems as there are casinos, or so it seems. I do not understand how a system could separate what you called "winnings from free play". Still confused.



Mission says in the article he hasnt researched it but makes the same assumptions you do. That cash won from freeplay should be counted.

I actually made the same assumptions myself. But with all the players cards at multiple casinos I have done I can confidently say they dont except for one casino.

That one casino is the Sands in PA. The other singular difference between the Sands and all the others is their system is real-time updated (24 hour gaming day) that is you can see you wins and losses on a daily basis. Everywhere else you have to wsit till the end of the year for a cumulative total.

Now are you saying you do not understand how a system could seperate freeplay wins from a technical point or from a logical standpoint.

Technically its no different than how many casinos you do not earn slot points or players club perks when using freeplay. The software recognizes you are utilizing complimentary credits. That same software can also not track wins and losses from complimentary credits.

From a logical standpoint the concept is more difficult to understand. I will do that another post. Im going back to bed :)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Mission146
Mission146
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May 28th, 2019 at 9:00:22 AM permalink
Thanks for reading guys!

Indeed, I didn’t know whether it counts or not because I’ve never paid any great attention to W/L statements and I also know systems have the potential for other irregularities anyway. Unless, as is (understandably) the case with DarkOz, if you’re not paying attention to 100% of the activity on a card, you’d probably never really know.

Logically, I also don’t know how the way it apparently is makes sense. I can understand why free play would not count as a, “Loss,” since it has no cash value, but one would think money won is money won. Maybe since the free play has no cash value the thinking is money won therefrom shouldn’t count towards W/L.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
darkoz
darkoz
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Mission146
May 28th, 2019 at 9:49:02 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Thanks for reading guys!

Indeed, I didn’t know whether it counts or not because I’ve never paid any great attention to W/L statements and I also know systems have the potential for other irregularities anyway. Unless, as is (understandably) the case with DarkOz, if you’re not paying attention to 100% of the activity on a card, you’d probably never really know.

Logically, I also don’t know how the way it apparently is makes sense. I can understand why free play would not count as a, “Loss,” since it has no cash value, but one would think money won is money won. Maybe since the free play has no cash value the thinking is money won therefrom shouldn’t count towards W/L.



That may have something to do with it.

Freeplay either has a cash value or it doesnt. Difficult to claim both. Most casinos opt for claiming it has no value.

If freeplay has no value it cannot be converted into value (an interesting alchemical notion).

For your article one reason win/loss statements are difficult to assess is because of mistakes from the player.

Lets say you accidentally left your card in a slot machine and the person sitting after you wins $100,000. He realizes your card is in the machine and pulls it out.

It still will show up on your win/loss statement that you won a $100,000. Imagine knowing you lost a grand or two and at the end of year finding out the casino claims you won $100,000?

While the person seated will show his ID and get paid, the casino will not go into the software metadata and alter the win showing on the other players account. And after a year has passed no one is even gonna understand why your account would show such a win.

So i general they are just too untrustworthy for accurate accounting
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
DRich
DRich
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Mission146
May 28th, 2019 at 10:02:37 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Here's my article on this for LCB for anyone interested:

https://lcb.org/news/editorials/w-2g-threshold-increase



A minor point in your article. CTR's are not required to be filed on cash paid out via a taxable jackpot ($1200 or more) because it is already being accounted for in the W2G.
Order from chaos
Mission146
Mission146
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May 28th, 2019 at 10:28:15 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

A minor point in your article. CTR's are not required to be filed on cash paid out via a taxable jackpot ($1200 or more) because it is already being accounted for in the W2G.



Thanks! I’ll add a comment with that correction later!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
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Mission146
May 28th, 2019 at 5:31:22 PM permalink
Great article Mission. Spot on with everything that I know is correct from this side of the table.
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Mission146
Mission146
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May 28th, 2019 at 5:45:15 PM permalink
Thank you very much!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

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