Vegas thoughts
October 29th, 2010 at 7:41:52 PM
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I've though a lot about this experience, about having visited Las Vegas. While there, I tried to keep my eyes and ears, and mind and heart, open; I hope I did well, I hope I got a little bit of an education. I think I did.
I'm going to just kind of post, keeping each post to one topic, one aspect of what I saw, heard, and felt. Although they won't be in any order of importance, I am going to make this first post about the one thing that I got that I think really is the most important.
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OK. Now I get it.
I've written a lot about the emotional side of gambling, about how it seems to be ignored by the math guys here, about how reducing it to numbers ignores the fact that it is a recreation, a pastime, an adventure, a lark. And that is true. But that doesn't make me right. Because Las Vegas is different. Different from Atlantic City, and light years different from stand-alone casinos out east.
In Vegas, the emotional charge isn't something novel and different, like it is to someone like me, a casual gambler who plays small change once a month or so. In Vegas, the emotional charge is everywhere. It is so pervasive that it is almost numbing. Instead of being a high, in Vegas the emotional charge represents the floor. It is the air, it is the water. It is the glance between people walking toward each other, that they make to keep from running into each other. It is completely inescapable. Knowledge of the numbers is the only defense. It is the only way a gaming man or woman can survive without being chewed to pieces.
AC isn't at all like Vegas. Sure, there's a bunch of casinos all in one place. And some of them are pretty nice, and they're fun. But it's not the reason for AC, like it is for Vegas. You can gamble in AC, but gambling isn't the reason for AC. AC is smaller. AC is socially stratified; there are slums and casinos. The casinos seem pasted onto the city, not part of it. And there aren't any slots in the airport.
How this works to the traveler is, AC is a minor destination. No one is sitting right now in suburban Indianapolis debating Atlantic City vs Las Vegas. Nor were they ever. The people who go to AC do it like the Mrs and I do: "Whaddya got planned for Sunday? Wanna drive to AC? Caesar's sent us a room offer, I can take a vacation day Monday." And we take a few hundred, and we toss it on the tables and in the slots, and when we're done we drive home. It's casual, we get the emotional charge, and it's over.
Are the numbers important, in AC? Well, yeah. They're real. But they aren't necessary as a defense against the culture. Because there is no culture of gambling. There's just casinos, and games. You can take a few hundred to AC and play penny slots and go home feeling good. You can waste away the weekend with 300 $1 bets on the Big 6 Wheel and not be any the worse for it, because you aren't living in the universe of chance; you are sticking your hand in, betting, and pulling it out. When you're done, you leave.
Las Vegas... to the traveler, that represents an investment. A 6 hour flight and a room. A vacation week. Money for shows. A car, probably. And by god, if you're going to Las Vegas you're going to dive in and gamble. And what you get is the noob entering a world where everyone is there... to take the money from the noob. And there's nothing wrong with that. Understand, I cast no aspersions. I like it. It seems right, to me. It's the collision of a motivated mark and a patient, organized, institutionalized con. The noob has no defense against total immersion in something that he used to only see from afar, that he used to watch on TV.
Except the numbers. Know the numbers. Maximize your return. Understand the relationship between bet and bankroll. Because it is precisely because there is that big investment surrounding your trip... the flight, the room, the car, the time off work... that you don't get caught up in the emotion, that you don't toss money at the Big 6 Wheel, you don't play $25 craps with a $500 bank, you don't sit at the $5 slots (more on Vegas slots in a different post). Because if you're not paying attention Vegas will eat you up and crap you out, without thinking twice, because right behind you is another noob waiting in line for the privilege to lose.
Get the charge. But keep your wits. Keep your eyes on the prize, and don't put on a show for anyone. When everything is pulling at you to go ahead, keep playing, the ATM is right there! remember the numbers, and how they behave. Have fun.... there's nothing in the world like the charge from a good game. But follow the numbers.
I'm going to just kind of post, keeping each post to one topic, one aspect of what I saw, heard, and felt. Although they won't be in any order of importance, I am going to make this first post about the one thing that I got that I think really is the most important.
---------------------
OK. Now I get it.
I've written a lot about the emotional side of gambling, about how it seems to be ignored by the math guys here, about how reducing it to numbers ignores the fact that it is a recreation, a pastime, an adventure, a lark. And that is true. But that doesn't make me right. Because Las Vegas is different. Different from Atlantic City, and light years different from stand-alone casinos out east.
In Vegas, the emotional charge isn't something novel and different, like it is to someone like me, a casual gambler who plays small change once a month or so. In Vegas, the emotional charge is everywhere. It is so pervasive that it is almost numbing. Instead of being a high, in Vegas the emotional charge represents the floor. It is the air, it is the water. It is the glance between people walking toward each other, that they make to keep from running into each other. It is completely inescapable. Knowledge of the numbers is the only defense. It is the only way a gaming man or woman can survive without being chewed to pieces.
AC isn't at all like Vegas. Sure, there's a bunch of casinos all in one place. And some of them are pretty nice, and they're fun. But it's not the reason for AC, like it is for Vegas. You can gamble in AC, but gambling isn't the reason for AC. AC is smaller. AC is socially stratified; there are slums and casinos. The casinos seem pasted onto the city, not part of it. And there aren't any slots in the airport.
How this works to the traveler is, AC is a minor destination. No one is sitting right now in suburban Indianapolis debating Atlantic City vs Las Vegas. Nor were they ever. The people who go to AC do it like the Mrs and I do: "Whaddya got planned for Sunday? Wanna drive to AC? Caesar's sent us a room offer, I can take a vacation day Monday." And we take a few hundred, and we toss it on the tables and in the slots, and when we're done we drive home. It's casual, we get the emotional charge, and it's over.
Are the numbers important, in AC? Well, yeah. They're real. But they aren't necessary as a defense against the culture. Because there is no culture of gambling. There's just casinos, and games. You can take a few hundred to AC and play penny slots and go home feeling good. You can waste away the weekend with 300 $1 bets on the Big 6 Wheel and not be any the worse for it, because you aren't living in the universe of chance; you are sticking your hand in, betting, and pulling it out. When you're done, you leave.
Las Vegas... to the traveler, that represents an investment. A 6 hour flight and a room. A vacation week. Money for shows. A car, probably. And by god, if you're going to Las Vegas you're going to dive in and gamble. And what you get is the noob entering a world where everyone is there... to take the money from the noob. And there's nothing wrong with that. Understand, I cast no aspersions. I like it. It seems right, to me. It's the collision of a motivated mark and a patient, organized, institutionalized con. The noob has no defense against total immersion in something that he used to only see from afar, that he used to watch on TV.
Except the numbers. Know the numbers. Maximize your return. Understand the relationship between bet and bankroll. Because it is precisely because there is that big investment surrounding your trip... the flight, the room, the car, the time off work... that you don't get caught up in the emotion, that you don't toss money at the Big 6 Wheel, you don't play $25 craps with a $500 bank, you don't sit at the $5 slots (more on Vegas slots in a different post). Because if you're not paying attention Vegas will eat you up and crap you out, without thinking twice, because right behind you is another noob waiting in line for the privilege to lose.
Get the charge. But keep your wits. Keep your eyes on the prize, and don't put on a show for anyone. When everything is pulling at you to go ahead, keep playing, the ATM is right there! remember the numbers, and how they behave. Have fun.... there's nothing in the world like the charge from a good game. But follow the numbers.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 29th, 2010 at 7:51:46 PM
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If only you could post something like that on the vp boards where all these self-announced AP's hang out....and not be hit with denial after denial after denial at every turn.
I've been to AC 3 times and it's always only been because I was "in the area" (like NYC, Philly or somewhere in NJ). LV gets the best of me every year, but I'm still excited as hell to go again every single time. Your post makes a lot of sense.
I've been to AC 3 times and it's always only been because I was "in the area" (like NYC, Philly or somewhere in NJ). LV gets the best of me every year, but I'm still excited as hell to go again every single time. Your post makes a lot of sense.
October 29th, 2010 at 8:15:52 PM
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Quote: Mosca
In Vegas, the emotional charge is everywhere. It is so pervasive that it is almost numbing. Instead of being a high, in Vegas the emotional charge represents the floor. It is the air, it is the water.
If you keep going, you'll find that it will change. I've been going for decades and I don't see any of that anymore. I remember well the first time I went and it blew my socks off. Now all I see is what my agenda is for the day. If I didn't do that, I would be overwhelmed by the crowds and the traffic. In a casino, all I see is my game and my table, the rest of it doesn't exist.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 29th, 2010 at 8:45:47 PM
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Quote: EvenBobQuote: Mosca
In Vegas, the emotional charge is everywhere. It is so pervasive that it is almost numbing. Instead of being a high, in Vegas the emotional charge represents the floor. It is the air, it is the water.
If you keep going, you'll find that it will change. I've been going for decades and I don't see any of that anymore. I remember well the first time I went and it blew my socks off. Now all I see is what my agenda is for the day. If I didn't do that, I would be overwhelmed by the crowds and the traffic. In a casino, all I see is my game and my table, the rest of it doesn't exist.
I noticed it because I was trying to observe everything. I really wanted to both concentrate and relax, to stay sharp and to learn by watching. I was watching other people, and getting the vibe.
We were there with another couple, and my friend isn't a gambler; he's a drinker, and a partyer, but not a gambler. I'm not much of a drinker, I have heart problems, and I never drink when I gamble. After our awards banquet, where we did well, I went upstairs to lose the necktie and tight shoes. I came downstairs and M. was at the craps table... and it was like a Hollywood movie, with everyone cheering and clapping rhythmically, and M. with the dice and a big handful of blacks and greens. He'd bought in with $100, set a point and had 15 rolls before hitting his point... he hit THREE hard eights in that streak! He had no idea what he was doing, he had a big water glass full of vodka, his lady looked great in a slinky little black dress and M. was living the dream. I played a few rolls, but the $25 min was too rich for my blood and I cashed out up a quarter, and went to the BJ tables. M. was doing fist rolls and punching the air as he tossed a couple greens on the field.
90 minutes later I checked back with him. All the serious players had moved to another table. There were still a few party people, and M. was still whooping it up, and N. still looked great in that dress, but the handful of blacks was down to half a dozen greens, and they weren't from the original buy-in, either. He was down close to a grand. He hit a point and collected a black... but he was still down close to a grand, just not as close.
Same thing happened the next night. After dinner, I stayed in the home casino, The Bellagio, and played cards. M. went hopping. Our bag pull was for 4:30AM, and our airport transportation was leaving at 6AM. I hadn't heard from him, so at 1AM I gave him a call to make sure he knew when to do what... "Hey buddy, thanks, I'm... I dunno, in a casino somewhere, I'm playing something called Pai-Gow Poker, you ever play that? It's great, I just learned it, I gotta go." They missed the bag pull and showed up less than an hour before the flight. He still doesn't know where he was playing.
Vegas is there for him. He had a blast. He loved it. But it cost him. If all you care about is the emotional part, you wake up with a hangover and an empty wallet. And unlike Hollywood, there's nothing funny about that. It's only fun when it's happening, it feels really ugly afterward. It's like cocaine (I've heard); a high price to pay, looking back from the next morning.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 29th, 2010 at 9:25:24 PM
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There is a way to escape the emotional pull, long before you simply get inured to the whole thing, as EvenBob suggests (correctly) will happen. It is to think in mathematical terms. Despite all the hoopla and vodka and screaming and shouting and slinky black dresses, when you put a black chip on the pass line, you have just handed the house $1.41. And the next time. And the next time. All the hoopla with the dice and the dealer and the stickman that follows is just obfuscation. Regardless of the actual outcome of the bet, you have just lost $1.41, SIMPLY BY THE ACT OF PLACING THAT BET. Stick $3 in a dollar slot, and you have just lost thirty cents, REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME.
Whenever I got tempted by all the hoopla, I had a very effective deadening device--I just played a little video in my head of the dealer hitting her 16 with a 5, the dice landing on four-three instead of the desired four-four, the dealer (at PGP) revealing a flush with two Aces in front, and--grab, grab, grab, scoop, scoop, scoop, seven out, lose your double down 20, watch those green chips in front of you get picked up and put in the rack. Over and over and over. It's quite effective as a mental deterrent.
Because, for whatever reason, I always thought in terms of the math, the hoopla of gambling never appealed to me. I was instead intrigued by the fact that on my first trip there, I picked up coupons with an expected value of $350, and spent an entire day walking from downtown to the Strip, and cashing them in. I was intrigued by the fact that I could count cards to my heart's content at the Horseshoe, and as long as I never bet more than $10, not only would they not bother me, they would buy me breakfast in the morning (the joint had class back then). I made $40 or so every night, and went back to my downtown weekly hotel room and slept the day away. I liked playing $1-3 seven card stud against the tourists, and made $10/hr. All this when the minimum wage was around $4/hr.
I guess I got all this from my mother. She was more tickled by a 50 cents off coupon for Campbell's soup than a night out at the movies. She stretched a dollar farther than anyone would have thought possible--it was a game for her. So I took her values to Vegas with me. Show me a $5 match play coupon, and it's like a $2.40 bill! Fun book for nothing--but here are five coupons good for $2 worth of nickels each! My mom would have loved it. That $350 was completely free money.
Now, I play slightly positive EV video poker, and take my action to where it will do the most good. I spent all but three days in June in Vegas, and I wound up about $400 to the good for the trip, and every room was comped, and all my meals were free. My playing mathematical expectation was actually about -$200, so I did better than expected--but a $200 loss would have been fine for an otherwise free vacation (I used Southwest Rapid Rewards coupons to get there). I have to admit, though, it's really all about the thrill of the chase. When they give me a free room for the weekend, free meals, and $50 to play with, and they don't figure to win more than $100 back from me, I feel I'm beating the system.
Whenever I got tempted by all the hoopla, I had a very effective deadening device--I just played a little video in my head of the dealer hitting her 16 with a 5, the dice landing on four-three instead of the desired four-four, the dealer (at PGP) revealing a flush with two Aces in front, and--grab, grab, grab, scoop, scoop, scoop, seven out, lose your double down 20, watch those green chips in front of you get picked up and put in the rack. Over and over and over. It's quite effective as a mental deterrent.
Because, for whatever reason, I always thought in terms of the math, the hoopla of gambling never appealed to me. I was instead intrigued by the fact that on my first trip there, I picked up coupons with an expected value of $350, and spent an entire day walking from downtown to the Strip, and cashing them in. I was intrigued by the fact that I could count cards to my heart's content at the Horseshoe, and as long as I never bet more than $10, not only would they not bother me, they would buy me breakfast in the morning (the joint had class back then). I made $40 or so every night, and went back to my downtown weekly hotel room and slept the day away. I liked playing $1-3 seven card stud against the tourists, and made $10/hr. All this when the minimum wage was around $4/hr.
I guess I got all this from my mother. She was more tickled by a 50 cents off coupon for Campbell's soup than a night out at the movies. She stretched a dollar farther than anyone would have thought possible--it was a game for her. So I took her values to Vegas with me. Show me a $5 match play coupon, and it's like a $2.40 bill! Fun book for nothing--but here are five coupons good for $2 worth of nickels each! My mom would have loved it. That $350 was completely free money.
Now, I play slightly positive EV video poker, and take my action to where it will do the most good. I spent all but three days in June in Vegas, and I wound up about $400 to the good for the trip, and every room was comped, and all my meals were free. My playing mathematical expectation was actually about -$200, so I did better than expected--but a $200 loss would have been fine for an otherwise free vacation (I used Southwest Rapid Rewards coupons to get there). I have to admit, though, it's really all about the thrill of the chase. When they give me a free room for the weekend, free meals, and $50 to play with, and they don't figure to win more than $100 back from me, I feel I'm beating the system.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
October 29th, 2010 at 9:48:07 PM
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Quote: MoscaQuote: EvenBobQuote: Mosca
Vegas is there for him. He had a blast. He loved it. But it cost him. If all you care about is the emotional part, you wake up with a hangover and an empty wallet. And unlike Hollywood, there's nothing funny about that.
I see those people everytime I leave Vegas on the shuttle. They got there on Fri and now its Mon morning and they got maybe 15 hours sleep for the last 3 days. They're dazed and exhausted and broke. You hear stories from the guy who lost his kids 35K college fund and guys who won 20K and ended up down 10K. Lots of guys are afraid to go home and face their wives. They should never go to Vegas without their spouses, its too dangerous."It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 29th, 2010 at 9:50:36 PM
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Quote: mkl654321
Because, for whatever reason, I always thought in terms of the math, the hoopla of gambling never appealed to me.
If you can gamble without emotion, you almost have the casino at your mercy if you have a decent method of play.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 30th, 2010 at 7:11:57 AM
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I think "The Buzz" is the major factor for most people. Booze, Broads, Beer, .... and its all amidst flashing lights, loud music, coins hitting metal trays (or sounds recordings of it). Personalities change when it becomes "Vegas Baby. Vegas". Some focus on fancy foods whereas some focus on pheremone-filled nightclubs, some focus on free alcohol, but whatever the focus is on, its not on the calm dispassionate gambler.
A bored and desperate stick chick calls out "get your S and M bet" ... and some fool tries to get an S and M bet. Alert? Attentive? His mind is not on a slide rule. Don a fanny pack, get half plastered and feed a slot machine, your mind won't be on math!
That guy who was playing games he had never heard of and didn't even know what casino he was in is a common event. His next visit to Vegas will probably go the same way.
A bored and desperate stick chick calls out "get your S and M bet" ... and some fool tries to get an S and M bet. Alert? Attentive? His mind is not on a slide rule. Don a fanny pack, get half plastered and feed a slot machine, your mind won't be on math!
That guy who was playing games he had never heard of and didn't even know what casino he was in is a common event. His next visit to Vegas will probably go the same way.
October 30th, 2010 at 9:31:50 AM
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Yes.
And I'm not against any of that, either. I'm 100% for it. It is legitimate enterprise, engaged in by adults. It is unique, exciting, and has value. You can gamble almost anywhere these days, but you can only "go to Vegas" in Vegas.
What impresses me is how systematic it all is. How the excitement is exciting for the visitors, and just part of the background noise for the insiders. The institutionalization of excitement and potential, for profit. If you want to jump in and experience it, and live to do it again, you have to follow the math.
I have my eyes wide open. I understand that probability doesn't know where it is, that it doesn't change in AC or Mohegan, that a 3 Card table will clean you out just as quickly in Connecticut as it will in Vegas. But the yank isn't present in AC or Mohegan. The games are there, but they're easy to walk away from. I drive past Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs 15 times a week on my way to and from work and around town on the weekends, and never consider going in, not even as idle musing. My money is real, and mine, but I'm not going to sweat the difference of a couple or few percents of edge on a few hundred dollars played for 3 hours every month or two. But when a place is set up to make you want to break your limits, to make you want to bet more, and bet more frequently, and there is a considerable investment in time and money and DESIRE to partake in that place, following the odds is your best chance. For me to want equal weight for the excitement... that was just naive.
And I'm not against any of that, either. I'm 100% for it. It is legitimate enterprise, engaged in by adults. It is unique, exciting, and has value. You can gamble almost anywhere these days, but you can only "go to Vegas" in Vegas.
What impresses me is how systematic it all is. How the excitement is exciting for the visitors, and just part of the background noise for the insiders. The institutionalization of excitement and potential, for profit. If you want to jump in and experience it, and live to do it again, you have to follow the math.
I have my eyes wide open. I understand that probability doesn't know where it is, that it doesn't change in AC or Mohegan, that a 3 Card table will clean you out just as quickly in Connecticut as it will in Vegas. But the yank isn't present in AC or Mohegan. The games are there, but they're easy to walk away from. I drive past Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs 15 times a week on my way to and from work and around town on the weekends, and never consider going in, not even as idle musing. My money is real, and mine, but I'm not going to sweat the difference of a couple or few percents of edge on a few hundred dollars played for 3 hours every month or two. But when a place is set up to make you want to break your limits, to make you want to bet more, and bet more frequently, and there is a considerable investment in time and money and DESIRE to partake in that place, following the odds is your best chance. For me to want equal weight for the excitement... that was just naive.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 30th, 2010 at 10:41:49 AM
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There is little "there," there on the Strip.
Locals avoid it like the plague.
They prefer to patronize the locals joints .
Think about why that is, then reboot, and try again.
Locals avoid it like the plague.
They prefer to patronize the locals joints .
Think about why that is, then reboot, and try again.
"What, me worry?"
October 30th, 2010 at 10:54:48 AM
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Quote: MrVThere is little "there," there on the Strip.
Locals avoid it like the plague.
They prefer to patronize the locals joints .
Think about why that is, then reboot, and try again.
What you are missing is that for the visitor we all have our 'local' casino at home. We are looking for the overtop buzz of the strip. If we wanted the quiet casino with staff and other customers we knew we could stay home.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
October 30th, 2010 at 11:21:36 AM
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Quote: MrVThere is little "there," there on the Strip.
Locals avoid it like the plague.
They prefer to patronize the locals joints .
Think about why that is, then reboot, and try again.
What kenarman said, with the following as an additional motivation...
I live 10 minutes from the Poconos. I don't go there. My sister lives 2 blocks off the beach in Ocean City NJ; she only goes to the beach when we visit her. One of my oldest friends lives in Manhattan; she never visits the Empire State Building, or the Statue of Liberty.
Think about why that is, then reboot, and try again.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 30th, 2010 at 11:41:15 AM
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Quote: MrVLocals avoid it like the plague.
They prefer to patronize the locals joints .
I think local residents avoid the traffic jams and parking hassles, yes.
They don't necessarily avoid the Strip Casinos... they just have to have a darn good reason: out of town visitors, special events, etc.
Does this mean that "The Buzz" is diminished for them? Sure. Locals are immunized to its effect by repeated exposure.
Do locals prefer local joints? Usually, but those local joints usually have to pay a premium to obtain their business. Its not out of the goodness of their hearts that local casinos offer better odds, better slots, better this and better that. Its a matter of convenience to the customer to choose between the Strip's mega resorts and the geographically more inviting but a bit more bland local joints.
In reality, geography probably plays quite a role but I have no data on anything such as how many patrons of Arizona Charlie's Decatur drove fewer than six minutes to get there. That is the ultimate in bland slot parlor, yet a more resplendent locals place such as Sams Town or Eastside Cannery seems to offer pretty much the same odds.
So I would say that yes: locals often go to local joints but there again, its a matter of time and money invested in traveling.
October 30th, 2010 at 11:46:27 AM
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I think many are looking for that buzz of the strip, not all. The quiet casino is indeed available by "staying home" but think how much different the water cooler talk is when you said "I went to Vegas" than "I went to nearby HappyWampum casino in Nowheresville". This is true even if the "Vegas" casino you went to is a dive or a locals, plain-vanilla type place.Quote: kenarmanWe are looking for the overtop buzz of the strip. If we wanted the quiet casino with staff and other customers we knew we could stay home.
October 30th, 2010 at 12:00:48 PM
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This is exactly what I'm paying for when I go to vegas. I know the house will take me in the long run, but even at $25/hand in blackjack I'm still losing less per hour than what I would spend on going to a movie.
While I know I can tone it out, I hope I never want to. It is the sole reason why I keep going back 2-4 times a year. I think I'm actually closer to toning out the gambling aspects right now. BJ and craps are my 2 main games. Both of which I have a strategy that is second nature to me now. I like this because then I can actually take in everything else while rarely affecting my gambling.
While I know I can tone it out, I hope I never want to. It is the sole reason why I keep going back 2-4 times a year. I think I'm actually closer to toning out the gambling aspects right now. BJ and craps are my 2 main games. Both of which I have a strategy that is second nature to me now. I like this because then I can actually take in everything else while rarely affecting my gambling.
October 30th, 2010 at 12:09:34 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffI think many are looking for that buzz of the strip, not all. The quiet casino is indeed available by "staying home" but think how much different the water cooler talk is when you said "I went to Vegas" than "I went to nearby HappyWampum casino in Nowheresville". This is true even if the "Vegas" casino you went to is a dive or a locals, plain-vanilla type place.
I agree.
Even in the case where someone wants a low key casino, Vegas is still offering things to that person that the local place back home can't. You are still probably flying to Vegas, and this alone makes it feel much more like a vacation rather than a 3 hour trip with friends.
Some of my family avoid weekends if at all possible just because they like the city but at some point it is just a bit much for them.
October 30th, 2010 at 2:49:21 PM
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I think you hit the nail on the head and it brings up a question I've wanted to ask in another thread but will ask it here:
Why do so few people come back from Vegas winners?
Theoretically, there should be a good proportion of winners as opposed to losers coming back from a Vegas trip. But you always hear, "Well, one person in our group won, but the other four lost." or "We donated to the casino this time." It's purely anecdotal, but it seems like everyone loses, when a good chunk of them should win!I have a couple theories for this:
(1) They play strictly slots. Easy to be a loser, since you are bucking a 4-10% house edge and only extreme variance will put you over the top. The more people play, the better chance they have to lose!
(2) People play too much. They go to Vegas and think, "Well, I'm here in Vegas. I should gamble." Then they lose (or win). If they lose, the game is always there, so they keep playing to get their money back. If they win, they keep playing because it's so easy to win! Eventually, they expose more and more money to the churn and end up down overall. This holds true for table games as well as slots.
(3) The lure and excitement that you mentioned is a huge factor, as are the free drinks. The Strip just makes you wanna gamble, and the rules there are by and large far worse than the locals joints. That is a strike against the player.
My first trip to Vegas, I overdosed on drinking and gambling and the Strip and lost a bundle. My second trip, I did the coupon thing and me and my friend made $400 each. My third trip I overplayed "phantom" positive video poker plays and lost a bundle. My fourth trip, I finally wised up and started playing the comp game off-strip, limiting the video poker, and doing other things besides gambling. It was my best trip yet, and I kept the bankroll even. My next trip I plan to stay at a comped room at the Tuscany and gamble even less. You live, you learn -- especially with Vegas.
Why do so few people come back from Vegas winners?
Theoretically, there should be a good proportion of winners as opposed to losers coming back from a Vegas trip. But you always hear, "Well, one person in our group won, but the other four lost." or "We donated to the casino this time." It's purely anecdotal, but it seems like everyone loses, when a good chunk of them should win!I have a couple theories for this:
(1) They play strictly slots. Easy to be a loser, since you are bucking a 4-10% house edge and only extreme variance will put you over the top. The more people play, the better chance they have to lose!
(2) People play too much. They go to Vegas and think, "Well, I'm here in Vegas. I should gamble." Then they lose (or win). If they lose, the game is always there, so they keep playing to get their money back. If they win, they keep playing because it's so easy to win! Eventually, they expose more and more money to the churn and end up down overall. This holds true for table games as well as slots.
(3) The lure and excitement that you mentioned is a huge factor, as are the free drinks. The Strip just makes you wanna gamble, and the rules there are by and large far worse than the locals joints. That is a strike against the player.
My first trip to Vegas, I overdosed on drinking and gambling and the Strip and lost a bundle. My second trip, I did the coupon thing and me and my friend made $400 each. My third trip I overplayed "phantom" positive video poker plays and lost a bundle. My fourth trip, I finally wised up and started playing the comp game off-strip, limiting the video poker, and doing other things besides gambling. It was my best trip yet, and I kept the bankroll even. My next trip I plan to stay at a comped room at the Tuscany and gamble even less. You live, you learn -- especially with Vegas.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
October 30th, 2010 at 4:33:15 PM
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Do people really still go there expecting to win?
Also, what do you think the average person defines as winning?
I don't know if this is common or not, but for me winning requires that the entire trip didn't cost me anything. So for me this means I need to be up $500-600 before I can even come close to calling myself a winner. This would be 250-300 for airfair, 50-75 for resort fees and the rest for food/shows.
I would be curious to know how many people actually play with stop limits(up or down). I know everyone is different, but I actually like going on a table playing for only 30 minutes, finding myself up and then leaving because I doubled my money(generally my stop limit on BJ). Then I'll just walk around for a little bit. I have no problem sitting there for 3 hours either if I'm just not getting any massive swings.
Another strategy I've liked but found next to impossible to implement myself(my bankroll would have to be about 3 times what I take) is to play with your limit of money during the day. Anytime you cashout with more than what you put in, you take the extra(say $20 buying and cashed for $60, you would take the $40) and just put it away. You still keep the original bet and can continue to play.
It isn't like any of those are systems to winning, but for me at least, I can call coming back with 75% of the cash I went out with a possible win. :)
Also, what do you think the average person defines as winning?
I don't know if this is common or not, but for me winning requires that the entire trip didn't cost me anything. So for me this means I need to be up $500-600 before I can even come close to calling myself a winner. This would be 250-300 for airfair, 50-75 for resort fees and the rest for food/shows.
I would be curious to know how many people actually play with stop limits(up or down). I know everyone is different, but I actually like going on a table playing for only 30 minutes, finding myself up and then leaving because I doubled my money(generally my stop limit on BJ). Then I'll just walk around for a little bit. I have no problem sitting there for 3 hours either if I'm just not getting any massive swings.
Another strategy I've liked but found next to impossible to implement myself(my bankroll would have to be about 3 times what I take) is to play with your limit of money during the day. Anytime you cashout with more than what you put in, you take the extra(say $20 buying and cashed for $60, you would take the $40) and just put it away. You still keep the original bet and can continue to play.
It isn't like any of those are systems to winning, but for me at least, I can call coming back with 75% of the cash I went out with a possible win. :)
October 30th, 2010 at 6:39:33 PM
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Check-in Sunday 2PM at the Bel.... a cluster, plain and simple. 20 windows open and 20 people in line at each window, and each check-in seemed to take 20 minutes. The printer jammed while printing my documents. For a 10 year old luxury hotel the procedure seemed slow and antiquated. These folks need to take lessons from Disney World. Thank god I checked out at 5:30 AM, I hate to see what that might have been like.
Generally we found casino personnel friendly and helpful. The review here has Bellagio dealers as aloof and unfriendly, but we didn't find that. In fact, they were among the most personable, best, fastest, most accurate I've played against. Special mention to Lynn and David, I'll be writing a letter. Even the dealer at M.'s craps table, who was clearly frustrated by him, was still professional and helpful, answering questions about bets and giving good advice (trying to, anyhow).
At other casinos, the experience was more spotty. I played 10 hands of 3 Card at Caesar's Monday morning; the dealer was aloof after I declined to play the "6 Card" bet. On the 10th hand, I drew A♥2♥3♥, with quarters up and a nickel bet for the dealer; nice hand, $1175 for me and $205 for her. Not even a thank you, she didn't break a smile. Just played the cards like she would if she was mucking them, except for the call of "Purple out!" Even Mrs Mosca mentioned it, that she seemed pissed about it. All I can figure is that it was a "sweating the money" situation that would bring the heat. Whatever, I had a rule to only play 10 hands, and we cashed and left, and because of her we also left the casino. Bad vibe on a great hand equals really bad vibe.
Bill's Gambling Hall; ugh. Interesting, a high tech operation made to look like a dive. Only in Vegas. Mrs lost $50 in a slot in about 3 minutes, and we left.
Paris was nice, we found the game of "Crazy 4 Poker", and I looked it up on my phone; the element of risk being only 1.09% according to WoO, I sat down. When I mentioned that I was just learning the game, surprise, surprise; the dealer quoted playing advice to me from Wizard of Odds! "Play K/Q/8/4, triple up on AA and better." He knew the tables and the odds, and endorsed and recommended to consult WoO for every game: "It'seasywizardofoddsdotcom.Youshouldnevergointoacasinowithoutlookingtherefirst." (He was a very fast talker.) We played 10 hands and left down about $50 for the session. Good dealer, even if he was kinda amped, like on meth.
We walked through the hallway to Bally's, where Mrs tried to find a machine that would let her sit a while. There was something with fishing that seemed to let us sit long enough to satisfy her. They have a "party pit" for cards, where all the dealers were dressed in football jerseys. Huh. If you got a blackjack, you got a set of beads. We sat, we got some beads, we didn't get some beads, we lost a couple hundred. Still it was fun. One dealer was good, the relief dealer was having a bad day.
Nice. Except for the first woman, I would call the atmosphere "inviting", which it should be. I liked the professionalism, the acknowledgment that the necessarily adversarial positions we were in did not mean we couldn't be friendly. I haven't run into any unfriendly dealers here in PA, but I've had some incompetent ones. And I've had actively hostile dealers in AC... Narc at the Tropicana comes to mind. This was admittedly a small sample, but the dealers were pretty good.
Generally we found casino personnel friendly and helpful. The review here has Bellagio dealers as aloof and unfriendly, but we didn't find that. In fact, they were among the most personable, best, fastest, most accurate I've played against. Special mention to Lynn and David, I'll be writing a letter. Even the dealer at M.'s craps table, who was clearly frustrated by him, was still professional and helpful, answering questions about bets and giving good advice (trying to, anyhow).
At other casinos, the experience was more spotty. I played 10 hands of 3 Card at Caesar's Monday morning; the dealer was aloof after I declined to play the "6 Card" bet. On the 10th hand, I drew A♥2♥3♥, with quarters up and a nickel bet for the dealer; nice hand, $1175 for me and $205 for her. Not even a thank you, she didn't break a smile. Just played the cards like she would if she was mucking them, except for the call of "Purple out!" Even Mrs Mosca mentioned it, that she seemed pissed about it. All I can figure is that it was a "sweating the money" situation that would bring the heat. Whatever, I had a rule to only play 10 hands, and we cashed and left, and because of her we also left the casino. Bad vibe on a great hand equals really bad vibe.
Bill's Gambling Hall; ugh. Interesting, a high tech operation made to look like a dive. Only in Vegas. Mrs lost $50 in a slot in about 3 minutes, and we left.
Paris was nice, we found the game of "Crazy 4 Poker", and I looked it up on my phone; the element of risk being only 1.09% according to WoO, I sat down. When I mentioned that I was just learning the game, surprise, surprise; the dealer quoted playing advice to me from Wizard of Odds! "Play K/Q/8/4, triple up on AA and better." He knew the tables and the odds, and endorsed and recommended to consult WoO for every game: "It'seasywizardofoddsdotcom.Youshouldnevergointoacasinowithoutlookingtherefirst." (He was a very fast talker.) We played 10 hands and left down about $50 for the session. Good dealer, even if he was kinda amped, like on meth.
We walked through the hallway to Bally's, where Mrs tried to find a machine that would let her sit a while. There was something with fishing that seemed to let us sit long enough to satisfy her. They have a "party pit" for cards, where all the dealers were dressed in football jerseys. Huh. If you got a blackjack, you got a set of beads. We sat, we got some beads, we didn't get some beads, we lost a couple hundred. Still it was fun. One dealer was good, the relief dealer was having a bad day.
Nice. Except for the first woman, I would call the atmosphere "inviting", which it should be. I liked the professionalism, the acknowledgment that the necessarily adversarial positions we were in did not mean we couldn't be friendly. I haven't run into any unfriendly dealers here in PA, but I've had some incompetent ones. And I've had actively hostile dealers in AC... Narc at the Tropicana comes to mind. This was admittedly a small sample, but the dealers were pretty good.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 30th, 2010 at 7:52:43 PM
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Quote: MoscaCheck-in Sunday 2PM at the Bel.... a cluster, plain and simple. 20 windows open and 20 people in line at each window, and each check-in seemed to take 20 minutes. The printer jammed while printing my documents. For a 10 year old luxury hotel the procedure seemed slow and antiquated. These folks need to take lessons from Disney World. Thank god I checked out at 5:30 AM, I hate to see what that might have been like.
Having stayed at Bel - checkout at peak times is just the inverse of your check-in experience, it's just the morning and everyone is anxious to make their flights. ;)
-B
October 30th, 2010 at 9:15:04 PM
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Quote: kenarmanWe are looking for the overtop buzz of the strip.
I'm really not getting the point of this thread.
My first trip to LV was in about 1985. I have always known that the strip was a horrid place to gamble, that better games could be found practically anywhere else. There's no "buzz" there. The crowds and traffic are infuriating, and the Strip casinos are full of people looking for a reason to be loud and stupid.
I visit LV a few times a year. When I go to the Strip, I immediately start looking forward to getting the hell out of there. The buildings can be nice to look at, but the people on the Strip always make for a miserable experience. Get me back Downtown or to a locals casino or down to Laughlin, where I can think straight and the gambling is much, much more enjoyable.
October 30th, 2010 at 10:27:46 PM
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If you were in Vegas in 1985 then the odds on the strip were as good as anywhere else in town. In the 80's and 90's I made 3 or 4 trips a year and always stayed on the strip. The strip has certainly changed sinced then but as a craps player the before odds EV is still the same. The whole town used to be 2X odds and now everyone has at least 3X4X5X. If you want high odds you can always go to Casino Royale (100X) without leaving the strip. What has changed on craps is the table limits. I used to be able to play $3 craps at the Flamingo, $2 at IP and 10 cent at Binions now it is sometimes tough to find a $10 table at night on the strip.
I understand your point about the people. I have many friends that don't like crowded places. I like the excitement of crowds and attend lots of large crowd attracting events, the latest being hanging out downtown in Vancouver during the Olympics. This isn't eveyones cup of tea though and to each their own. My wife is a slot player and likes the buzz as well. She always makes me book in the on weekend because she wants the casino to be packed when she is there.
I understand your point about the people. I have many friends that don't like crowded places. I like the excitement of crowds and attend lots of large crowd attracting events, the latest being hanging out downtown in Vancouver during the Olympics. This isn't eveyones cup of tea though and to each their own. My wife is a slot player and likes the buzz as well. She always makes me book in the on weekend because she wants the casino to be packed when she is there.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
October 30th, 2010 at 11:12:11 PM
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"The buzz" isn't really in the air. It is inside you, and you project it onto your experience. If you, Melman, don't enjoy it, then no; of course you wouldn't get this thread. And that's completely understandable, we're all different.
All I'm doing is writing down my experience, and how I saw things, trying to have some fun writing it and trying to get some people (like you) to say how they find it different. I would be incredibly vain if I thought my 2 days described Las Vegas. I know it doesn't. I'm writing what it felt like to me, to actually go there, in 2010, after having read about it and seen it in films and television for years. I appreciate your reading it and adding your thoughts, that is another way of looking at it.
All I'm doing is writing down my experience, and how I saw things, trying to have some fun writing it and trying to get some people (like you) to say how they find it different. I would be incredibly vain if I thought my 2 days described Las Vegas. I know it doesn't. I'm writing what it felt like to me, to actually go there, in 2010, after having read about it and seen it in films and television for years. I appreciate your reading it and adding your thoughts, that is another way of looking at it.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 31st, 2010 at 1:18:03 AM
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The 'buzz' comes from most people being on vacation and trying to cram as much fun into 3-4 days as possible. This makes for a party atmosphere all the time, mostly Thurs-Sun. On a Tuesday afternoon, you can swear you see tumbleweeds blowing thru Strip casinos, its that drowsy and laid back.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 31st, 2010 at 10:36:50 AM
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Quote: Mosca"The buzz" isn't really in the air. It is inside you, and you project it onto your experience. If you, Melman, don't enjoy it, then no; of course you wouldn't get this thread. And that's completely understandable, we're all different.
All I'm doing is writing down my experience, and how I saw things, trying to have some fun writing it and trying to get some people (like you) to say how they find it different. I would be incredibly vain if I thought my 2 days described Las Vegas. I know it doesn't. I'm writing what it felt like to me, to actually go there, in 2010, after having read about it and seen it in films and television for years. I appreciate your reading it and adding your thoughts, that is another way of looking at it.
I guess the differing opinions on this thread have to do with many people thinking that the "buzz", when it exists, mostly comes from within rather than without. Vegas is always the same (as in: the same vibe), but it affects you less and less on repeat visits, just like sex with a nymphomaniac supermodel becomes boring after a while. So how much "fun" a person has is, IMHO, a function of how much fun a person EXPECTS to have.
There's a large component of FORCED "fun" in our culture, mostly based around drinking. Many people, on Vegas weekends, at frat parties, on dates, whatever, tell themselves that THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE FUN (goddammit). So they drink, and gamble, and stay up late, and drink, and dance to music that is louder than a jackhammer, and drink, and dance, and throw up, and drink some more. They then come to the next morning, convinced (despite their massive headaches) that they had FUN. I see the behavior of most weekend Vegas tourists as exactly that--forced fun.
I agree that Vegas can be exciting for the first-time visitor, because it's novel, and novel experiences are stimulating. Heck, even a colonic irrigation can be interesting--once.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
October 31st, 2010 at 10:41:12 AM
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Wait a minute. Isn't it time for Jerry to pop up and complain that mkl makes things up and doesn't really have experience with what he is posting about?Quote: mkl654321... just like sex with a nymphomaniac supermodel becomes boring after a while. ...
October 31st, 2010 at 10:48:22 AM
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Since a lot of it is different points of view, there isn't any reason to dispute anything, I don't think. I just like writing it out for people to think about. I enjoy reading the point of view of those who are inured to it all.
mkl, the "forced fun", yes. That's part of it. Then toss in a rhythmic beat, some hand clapping in unison, a couple trucks of booze and some girls (and guys), and all of a sudden it's PAAAAARTAY TIME!!!!!!! I'm not going to slag on that, though. Daily life can be a real grind, cutting loose is as old as humanity. What I keep going back to as Las Vegas' most unique feature is the high tech industrialization of cutting loose! It is truly astonishing, a capitalist achievement to be awed over. Of course, once you're used to it, you can see all the ropes and wires and the man behind the curtain. But on first look it is fascinating.
mkl, the "forced fun", yes. That's part of it. Then toss in a rhythmic beat, some hand clapping in unison, a couple trucks of booze and some girls (and guys), and all of a sudden it's PAAAAARTAY TIME!!!!!!! I'm not going to slag on that, though. Daily life can be a real grind, cutting loose is as old as humanity. What I keep going back to as Las Vegas' most unique feature is the high tech industrialization of cutting loose! It is truly astonishing, a capitalist achievement to be awed over. Of course, once you're used to it, you can see all the ropes and wires and the man behind the curtain. But on first look it is fascinating.
A falling knife has no handle.
October 31st, 2010 at 11:06:27 AM
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Quote: DocWait a minute. Isn't it time for Jerry to pop up and complain that mkl makes things up and doesn't really have experience with what he is posting about?
He doesn't know one way or the (baby, stop it! I'm trying to post) other, but I'm sure (ooooh! you naughty...) he'll proffer an sghjetguy (sorry, typo) opinion on (yes! yes! careful, you're dripping on the keyboard) that within a few 7ger$#%bcvjfko
I'll have to get back to you....
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
October 31st, 2010 at 11:11:58 AM
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You make it sound like forced fun is bad or something people should avoid. Damn me for forcing myself to actually relax on vacation. :)
October 31st, 2010 at 11:16:06 AM
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Quote: soulhunt79You make it sound like forced fun is bad or something people should avoid. Damn me for forcing myself to actually relax on vacation. :)
I never levied a judgment on "forced" fun; I only characterized it as something other than "actual" fun. If you are relaxing on vacation--TRULY relaxing--then you are having actual fun. If you feel you are FORCING yourself to relax, then no, you are not actually having fun. Some people go on vacation, only to find that they're bored. If they concoct some kind of activity--usually involving drinking--to alleviate that boredom, then that is forced fun. But to each his own.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
October 31st, 2010 at 11:57:43 AM
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We all experience "Vegas" differently. Yes, indeed. Even if I were bound for Laughlin/Bullhead-City I'd still tell people I was going to "Vegas" even though its an entirely different experience. Whether I was staying on the Vegas Strip, Downtown or the Boulder Strip, I'd still say "Vegas" even though I'd have different expectations.
To a certain extent, what I've referred to as "The Buzz" is like an advertisement: its unavoidable but its actual effect on any one individual does vary. Some people walk into a casino and are instantly hit by "The Buzz" whereas others are able to exercise a bit more self control. I find the loud music in some casinos to be maddening. Others actually enjoy it and I imagine there might be some others who would say "what music?".
Its odd that you mention the failure of the dealer to at the very least acknowledge the tip. I too react negatively to this from time to time. I do not expect the dealer to fawn all over me when I tip, particularly in view of the paltry sum I might be tipping them. I do however expect some degree of acknowledgment. I've often been addressed as George or referred to as George and have heard comments such as a relief dealer being told 'shooter is our friend' which lets that relief dealer know that I've been tipping them. When both I and the dealers are on the pass line and I seven out, I've heard the stickman say something about 'can't call him a loser, he was making bets for us'. A dealer doesn't have to say something each and every time I tip him but some sort of acknowledgment is nice. I too have walked next door when a particular dealer has been rude or is clearly depressed. I know casinos generally try to make the atmosphere festive and if for some reason its not particularly festive there, I'll try the joint next door even if I play there with foreign chips.
To a certain extent, what I've referred to as "The Buzz" is like an advertisement: its unavoidable but its actual effect on any one individual does vary. Some people walk into a casino and are instantly hit by "The Buzz" whereas others are able to exercise a bit more self control. I find the loud music in some casinos to be maddening. Others actually enjoy it and I imagine there might be some others who would say "what music?".
Its odd that you mention the failure of the dealer to at the very least acknowledge the tip. I too react negatively to this from time to time. I do not expect the dealer to fawn all over me when I tip, particularly in view of the paltry sum I might be tipping them. I do however expect some degree of acknowledgment. I've often been addressed as George or referred to as George and have heard comments such as a relief dealer being told 'shooter is our friend' which lets that relief dealer know that I've been tipping them. When both I and the dealers are on the pass line and I seven out, I've heard the stickman say something about 'can't call him a loser, he was making bets for us'. A dealer doesn't have to say something each and every time I tip him but some sort of acknowledgment is nice. I too have walked next door when a particular dealer has been rude or is clearly depressed. I know casinos generally try to make the atmosphere festive and if for some reason its not particularly festive there, I'll try the joint next door even if I play there with foreign chips.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:01:07 PM
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That's getting a little subjective, don't you think? For one guy, that might be forced. For another, it might be exactly the ticket. I understand what you mean, but it does seem like qualifying degrees of recreation. "PAAAAAARTAY!!!!!" is not what I think is fun, but if it works for another guy it's OK by me, I'll go do my thing over here (which is one reason why I played cards instead of craps with my friend M.).
A falling knife has no handle.
October 31st, 2010 at 2:42:46 PM
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I only go to Vegas to gamble, thats all. I have a recurring dream that my wife and I are in Vegas for 10 days and get caught up in all the hoopla and are at the airport leaving and realize we never gambled once. I'm not joking, I have the dream all the time.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 31st, 2010 at 4:51:15 PM
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Quote: MoscaThat's getting a little subjective, don't you think? For one guy, that might be forced. For another, it might be exactly the ticket. I understand what you mean, but it does seem like qualifying degrees of recreation. "PAAAAAARTAY!!!!!" is not what I think is fun, but if it works for another guy it's OK by me, I'll go do my thing over here (which is one reason why I played cards instead of craps with my friend M.).
I'm with you there. Vegas is one city where even if I'm visiting with friends I am doing whatever I want to do. I of course what to spend time with them, but if they choose to go see some circ show and I couldn't care less about it, I'll go play some craps and meet up with them for a drink afterwards. Some of my family only play slots, some only bet on sports books, some only want to see sites/shows. It is perfect in the aspect that all of that is so close that everyone can go off and do whatever they want and then come back and meet up for dinner.
I'm not even sure why forced vs not forced matters. Either a person is entertained or not. There are many aspects about vegas that I love, and that others in my family absolutely hate. I like it when it is crowded, my family avoids weekends.
In the end if you enjoyed the experience, then you enjoyed it. How you enjoyed it or how you got in the situations to enjoy it shouldn't matter. I do think there are people that mkl mentions that go to vegas and convince themselves they had fun because they did all the vegas things when in reality they didn't really enjoy it. They were bored and they wanted to do something and the city was telling them what everyone else was doing for fun. I refuse to believe this type of person is the majority though. I also expect that those same people are going to remember the 8 hours where they were bored and are much less likely to head back to vegas anytime soon.
October 31st, 2010 at 8:44:24 PM
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Mosca, glad to see your trip report. There are lots of differing opinions on Vegas. I live in a tourist destination, Niagara Falls, and people are genuinely surprised when I tell them that I haven't been on the Maid of the Mist. So it doesn't surprise me to hear that those who live in Vegas don't frequent the strip because of the traffic, bad deals, expensive meals, etcetera. I go to the falls from time to time, but never on a summer's night or during the weekend.
That said, I've been on day trips and one nighters to AC, and I'm right now about 40 minutes from Mohegan Sun. I'm comfortable both at Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods. They're megaresorts, and can be fun. For AC, I always feel wary because I know that if I walk one block west of the casino it would not be safe. The boardwalk is nice, in the daytime.
I've been to Vegas I think six times now. The first time was a typical trip - to get married. After that, I've been for sun, food, entertainment, and to gamble. We enjoy the architecture, the long walks down the strip, the pools, the shows, the meals, and of course, the casinos. I always feel younger while I am there though we personally don't do anything tremendously embarrassing or out of line while I am there. The Las Vegas strip has energy. The strip in Las Vegas I would compare to the energy one feels in Times Square, Champs Elysse in Paris, Picadilly Square in London, or Rue St. Catharine in Montreal, or even Niagara Falls on a summer's weekend night.
I'm fully aware that the games on the strip don't offer the best odds and I'd be far better off taking the shuttle bus out to Red Rock. But I'm there for the entertainment and for the energy, and to go on a good deal.
That said, I've been on day trips and one nighters to AC, and I'm right now about 40 minutes from Mohegan Sun. I'm comfortable both at Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods. They're megaresorts, and can be fun. For AC, I always feel wary because I know that if I walk one block west of the casino it would not be safe. The boardwalk is nice, in the daytime.
I've been to Vegas I think six times now. The first time was a typical trip - to get married. After that, I've been for sun, food, entertainment, and to gamble. We enjoy the architecture, the long walks down the strip, the pools, the shows, the meals, and of course, the casinos. I always feel younger while I am there though we personally don't do anything tremendously embarrassing or out of line while I am there. The Las Vegas strip has energy. The strip in Las Vegas I would compare to the energy one feels in Times Square, Champs Elysse in Paris, Picadilly Square in London, or Rue St. Catharine in Montreal, or even Niagara Falls on a summer's weekend night.
I'm fully aware that the games on the strip don't offer the best odds and I'd be far better off taking the shuttle bus out to Red Rock. But I'm there for the entertainment and for the energy, and to go on a good deal.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
October 31st, 2010 at 8:50:13 PM
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boymimbo- I have been to 40 countries and the maid of the mist is one of my favorite tourist experiences... and i live nearby, too. Get on that boat!!!
October 31st, 2010 at 9:19:33 PM
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Red Rock? I just read something in the LVSun about some tiny little slot joint with three BJ tables out on Boulder Strip having the best odds ... I didn't bother trying to see why this Skyline place is supposed to be so good, because I know I'm never going to go there.Quote: boymimboI'm fully aware that the games on the strip don't offer the best odds and I'd be far better off taking the shuttle bus out to Red Rock. But I'm there for the entertainment and for the energy, and to go on a good deal.
I guess its the same thing as playing on the Strip when you know a locals casino offers slightly better deals. Its a slight advantage, too slight to motivate the trek away from The Strip. Its often just a matter of preference or habits. So right off the bat even a gambler who can do the math effortlessly will still make some less than optimal gambling decisions with full knowledge of what he is doing.
November 1st, 2010 at 7:06:11 AM
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We did not have a single bad meal in Las Vegas. Everything.... EVERYTHING was good. Admittedly, we didn't venture out looking for anything, we stuck to what was close, and ate mostly inside the Bellagio. But still.
On the first day there, we were beat from travel and out of sync; paninis at Palio were superb. We each ordered our own, and each was big enough to split.
That night was catered food as part of our banquet; carving station, marinated salads, Mongolian beef, shrimp, crab legs, etc. Top notch.
Monday morning the buffet looked like a Disney line, so we split a breakfast bacon & egg panini at Palios. Great coffee. Monday afternoon, the sandwich shop inside Bally's, I had a good bacon/turkey club and Mrs had a hot pastrami. The macaroni salad was insanely good.
Monday night, catered again. Filet mignon, jumbo shrimp, jubilee tomato salad, gelato, etc. Can't go wrong with tender filet and grilled shrimp.
Tuesday breakfast buffet at Bellagio, best buffet I've ever had. And I've had a buffet or two.
Tuesday afternoon, quick lunch at Cabo Wabo. Street tacos were just like street tacos should be, small, simple and tasty. This was the closest to an average meal we had, and I'd eat there again any time.
Tuesday evening, dinner at Sensi. This was incredible. I'll put it close to The Four Seasons or Brown's Beach House, close to one of the best meals I've ever had. Not the best, but the experience was absolutely memorable. It is a beautiful space, staffed by people who have it really together, with meals crafted out of first class ingredients by people who care. You can't go wrong with that.
Wednesday morning, an apple danish from the Starbucks at McCarran. Back to reality.
Service everywhere was outstanding. We eat out a lot, more than most people do and more than we should, and this was the type of service I'd expect at a first class international destination: friendly but with decent distance. None of that "Hi, I'm Todd" stuff, except at Cabo Wabo, which is intended to be informal.
My sister and her husband visit Vegas often, and Barb was telling me that among food people, Las Vegas is getting a reputation as a gourmet destination. I can see that. If I were to win big, I wouldn't buy anything in a jewelry store, or a leather goods store, but I might blow $300 on a memorable meal. For me, it is all about the experience, and owning something isn't part of the experience. But the meals are. Again, everyone is different, and I know some people are going to think that that attitude is nuts... just like I think $300 for a round of golf is ridiculous, I suppose. Or, let's choose instead to say, "Vive le difference!" And be happy that both choices are available in Las Vegas!
On the first day there, we were beat from travel and out of sync; paninis at Palio were superb. We each ordered our own, and each was big enough to split.
That night was catered food as part of our banquet; carving station, marinated salads, Mongolian beef, shrimp, crab legs, etc. Top notch.
Monday morning the buffet looked like a Disney line, so we split a breakfast bacon & egg panini at Palios. Great coffee. Monday afternoon, the sandwich shop inside Bally's, I had a good bacon/turkey club and Mrs had a hot pastrami. The macaroni salad was insanely good.
Monday night, catered again. Filet mignon, jumbo shrimp, jubilee tomato salad, gelato, etc. Can't go wrong with tender filet and grilled shrimp.
Tuesday breakfast buffet at Bellagio, best buffet I've ever had. And I've had a buffet or two.
Tuesday afternoon, quick lunch at Cabo Wabo. Street tacos were just like street tacos should be, small, simple and tasty. This was the closest to an average meal we had, and I'd eat there again any time.
Tuesday evening, dinner at Sensi. This was incredible. I'll put it close to The Four Seasons or Brown's Beach House, close to one of the best meals I've ever had. Not the best, but the experience was absolutely memorable. It is a beautiful space, staffed by people who have it really together, with meals crafted out of first class ingredients by people who care. You can't go wrong with that.
Wednesday morning, an apple danish from the Starbucks at McCarran. Back to reality.
Service everywhere was outstanding. We eat out a lot, more than most people do and more than we should, and this was the type of service I'd expect at a first class international destination: friendly but with decent distance. None of that "Hi, I'm Todd" stuff, except at Cabo Wabo, which is intended to be informal.
My sister and her husband visit Vegas often, and Barb was telling me that among food people, Las Vegas is getting a reputation as a gourmet destination. I can see that. If I were to win big, I wouldn't buy anything in a jewelry store, or a leather goods store, but I might blow $300 on a memorable meal. For me, it is all about the experience, and owning something isn't part of the experience. But the meals are. Again, everyone is different, and I know some people are going to think that that attitude is nuts... just like I think $300 for a round of golf is ridiculous, I suppose. Or, let's choose instead to say, "Vive le difference!" And be happy that both choices are available in Las Vegas!
A falling knife has no handle.
November 1st, 2010 at 7:46:08 AM
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Quote: MoscaTuesday afternoon, quick lunch at Cabo Wabo. Street tacos were just like street tacos should be, small, simple and tasty. This was the closest to an average meal we had, and I'd eat there again any time.
I really doubt it. For one thing I'm sure you were not served on plastic plates inside a plastic bag, with the tacos on a piece of paper. Seriously, that's how real street tacos are served. The plastic bags are discarded after each customer, but the plates aren't washed til the end of the day (if then). You may have gotten them with chopped onions, cilantro and lime, though.
I wonder if a high-class, gourmet Mexican restaurant would work in Vegas. There are plenty here in Mex City, of course, but outside Mexico I've seen only one: San Angel Inn at Epcot's World Showcase. I dind't try it, but the menu was almost the same as the one in Mexico City.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
November 1st, 2010 at 7:55:46 AM
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Quote: NareedI really doubt it. For one thing I'm sure you were not served on plastic plates inside a plastic bag, with the tacos on a piece of paper. Seriously, that's how real street tacos are served. The plastic bags are discarded after each customer, but the plates aren't washed til the end of the day (if then). You may have gotten them with chopped onions, cilantro and lime, though.
I wonder if a high-class, gourmet Mexican restaurant would work in Vegas. There are plenty here in Mex City, of course, but outside Mexico I've seen only one: San Angel Inn at Epcot's World Showcase. I didn't try it, but the menu was almost the same as the one in Mexico City.
LOL, well yeah, there's that. I did mean the taste, not the serving or setting. Marinated shredded meat, cilantro, onions, lime. Soft shell lightly fried. A decent taco.
We've eaten at San Angel Inn several times, it's very good. I usually take pictures of meals (I have one of the street tacos, but not on-line to link here), but none from inside the San Angel, it's too dark and I won't take flash pictures in restaurants. San Angel is one of the better meals at Disney, I'd recommend it.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 1st, 2010 at 8:37:50 AM
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Quote: MoscaLOL, well yeah, there's that. I did mean the taste, not the serving or setting. Marinated shredded meat, cilantro, onions, lime. Soft shell lightly fried. A decent taco.
Shredded meat? That's no good for most tacos. For instance, beef tacos are made of very thin steaks chopped in small pieces, or whole, really thin, small steaks. If you're ever in mexico City try either El Tizoncito or El Farolito (no plastic plates with bags there), and try tacos al pastor or a nice alambre (that's meat with bell peppers, bacon and onion) or if you want something really good try Los Panchos in Anzures, best pork (carnitas) tacos in the city.
Quote:We've eaten at San Angel Inn several times, it's very good. I usually take pictures of meals (I have one of the street tacos, but not on-line to link here), but none from inside the San Angel, it's too dark and I won't take flash pictures in restaurants. San Angel is one of the better meals at Disney, I'd recommend it.
I've eaten a couple of times at the original in San Angel. It's good, but overpriced. Of course most such restaurants are overpriced.
Overall when I travel to the US I don't go looking for Mexican food. I'm convonced it won't be as good, plus I can get it at home any time I want it. Instead I try more local options, or nice Italian, Chinese or Japanese places. In Vegas I mostly stick to buffets. I used to try Tex-Mex palces, but we get that at home, too.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
November 1st, 2010 at 9:07:02 AM
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Quote: EvenBobI only go to Vegas to gamble, thats all. I have a recurring dream that my wife and I are in Vegas for 10 days and get caught up in all the hoopla and are at the airport leaving and realize we never gambled once. I'm not joking, I have the dream all the time.
That's funny - I go to Vegas most often on business and I've had at least two trips in the past year where I didn't get a single bet down anywhere. I actually do get to the airport to leave and realize I never gambled once.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
November 1st, 2010 at 9:18:01 AM
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Nareed, I'll post up the photo when I get home. I'm not saying they were like street tacos in Mexico, they're like street tacos from a taco truck or a stand here in the US, like in Philly or NYC. I've never been to Mexico.
Alambre, that sounds fantastic.
Everything in Disney is overpriced, regular overpriced sounds reasonable by comparison! Meals at San Angel Inn in EPCOT go about $30 for entrees. If you like local options in the US, I suggest you visit Roadfood; URL is what it looks like it would be. I participate there as Mosca as well, been a member for about 7 years. That's where you'll get the best recommendations for the kind of food that the locals know about and the tourists don't.
Alambre, that sounds fantastic.
Everything in Disney is overpriced, regular overpriced sounds reasonable by comparison! Meals at San Angel Inn in EPCOT go about $30 for entrees. If you like local options in the US, I suggest you visit Roadfood; URL is what it looks like it would be. I participate there as Mosca as well, been a member for about 7 years. That's where you'll get the best recommendations for the kind of food that the locals know about and the tourists don't.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 1st, 2010 at 2:52:41 PM
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Quote: MoscaNareed, I'll post up the photo when I get home. I'm not saying they were like street tacos in Mexico, they're like street tacos from a taco truck or a stand here in the US, like in Philly or NYC. I've never been to Mexico.
I suppose they bear the same resemblance to the real thing, as hot dogs here have to those sold in the US. Would you believe no mustard on a hot dog???
Quote:Alambre, that sounds fantastic.
Originally the meat, peppers, bacon and onions were placed on a skewer and then grilled. "Alambre" means "wire." these day the ingredints are just thrown on the grill, but the effect is the same and the name stuck.
Quote:Everything in Disney is overpriced,
I know. I've been there. I mannaged to eat most meals outside the parks the last time I was there.
Quote:Meals at San Angel Inn in EPCOT go about $30 for entrees.
You know, it's been years since I went to the original, so I can't tell you what the current prices are, but it sounds high.
Quote:If you like local options in the US, I suggest you visit Roadfood; URL is what it looks like it would be. I participate there as Mosca as well, been a member for about 7 years. That's where you'll get the best recommendations for the kind of food that the locals know about and the tourists don't.
Thanks. I'll look it up.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
November 1st, 2010 at 3:12:41 PM
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Quote: Moscaamong food people, Las Vegas is getting a reputation as a gourmet destination. I can see that. If I were to win big, I wouldn't buy anything in a jewelry store, or a leather goods store, but I might blow $300 on a memorable meal. For me, it is all about the experience, and owning something isn't part of the experience. But the meals are. Again, everyone is different, and I know some people are going to think that that attitude is nuts... just like I think $300 for a round of golf is ridiculous, I suppose. Or, let's choose instead to say, "Vive le difference!" And be happy that both choices are available in Las Vegas!
Food and Wine seems very much "in" with the Yuppies these days. Womens Wine Tastings are frequent in the Vegas area, various wine parties abound, gourmet restaurants holding special events seem to be all over the calendar for Las Vegas yuppies.
Decades ago one might splurge on a VCR but then along came TIVO and DVDs and besides, the shows aren't so great anyway even if you happen to be the showrunner. If your company gets downsized, you have to lug all those electronic toys with you. Instead of acquiring an asset that needs to be dusted from time to time, many people are opting for the short term pleasures of the food and wine. You stay in an upscale neighborhood with what used to be called "the in crowd". Its all Eat, Drink and Be Merry... for tomorrow you may be hawking bottled water on the Strip.
November 1st, 2010 at 3:48:17 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistThat's funny - I go to Vegas most often on business and I've had at least two trips in the past year where I didn't get a single bet down anywhere. I actually do get to the airport to leave and realize I never gambled once.
So you're living my nightmare. Shudder...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 1st, 2010 at 5:42:36 PM
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Pic of "street tacos":
A falling knife has no handle.
November 1st, 2010 at 5:59:30 PM
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Quote: MoscaPic of "street tacos":
Is it legal to post taco porn on the internet?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
November 1st, 2010 at 6:13:52 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Is it legal to post taco porn on the internet?
Those freakin' food shots are vexing. There's never enough light, flash blows out the highlights, increasing the aperture reduces depth of field, and bumping ISO on the little cameras used in restaurants increases grain. Add to that that Mrs Mosca hates me shooting food so I have to work quickly, and most of my food shots don't come out that nice.
A falling knife has no handle.
November 1st, 2010 at 6:17:44 PM
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My buddy says, "Gambling's only fun in Las Vegas". I must say I agree with him. He lives near a government run casino in Brantford, Ontario, Canada and he never goes there. I went to the Brantford casino once and have never been back. Why? Because the gambling there is the only thing to do and it's there soley to part you from your money. It's mostly slots. They have 6/5 Jacks or better VP as their best game. They don't really give you a chance because they're really there to collect money for the government.
Las Vegas at least gives you options that don't vaccum your wallet out when you gamble. Sure I go knowing that at the end I'm going to lose -- 3-4-5x craps, hit soft 17 BJ with a 0.5% house edge, 9/6 Jacks or better VP -- but I don't want to give away 5% or more in house edge.
I enjoy people watching. I enjoy the supersitious crowd at the craps table. My wife and I have had very nice chats with fellow players and dealers at the BJ tables or relax with a drink and an hour or two of video poker together.
The local casino just doesn't feel the same. Partly because it's the only thing there. In Las Vegas, when you get tired of gambling (we only play an hour or two at a stretch) there are sights to see, entertainers to amuse, shopping to do, hikes at Red Rock Canyon to take, nicely prepared meals to eat, photographs to shoot all packed within a short walk or an easy drive.
I would love to be a part of something random and rare. I would love to be at the craps table when the record for the longest roll got set. I am still waiting to hit my first Royal Flush on VP. I would love to win 10 hands in a row in blackjack. Sure the money won would be nice, but that would be secondary for me (I don't bet large amounts anyway). The energy in participating in something like that in Las Vegas seems amplified compared to other places.
Las Vegas at least gives you options that don't vaccum your wallet out when you gamble. Sure I go knowing that at the end I'm going to lose -- 3-4-5x craps, hit soft 17 BJ with a 0.5% house edge, 9/6 Jacks or better VP -- but I don't want to give away 5% or more in house edge.
I enjoy people watching. I enjoy the supersitious crowd at the craps table. My wife and I have had very nice chats with fellow players and dealers at the BJ tables or relax with a drink and an hour or two of video poker together.
The local casino just doesn't feel the same. Partly because it's the only thing there. In Las Vegas, when you get tired of gambling (we only play an hour or two at a stretch) there are sights to see, entertainers to amuse, shopping to do, hikes at Red Rock Canyon to take, nicely prepared meals to eat, photographs to shoot all packed within a short walk or an easy drive.
I would love to be a part of something random and rare. I would love to be at the craps table when the record for the longest roll got set. I am still waiting to hit my first Royal Flush on VP. I would love to win 10 hands in a row in blackjack. Sure the money won would be nice, but that would be secondary for me (I don't bet large amounts anyway). The energy in participating in something like that in Las Vegas seems amplified compared to other places.
