Controlled Dice Shooting is BS!
Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyYou must be from the school of thought that dice shooting is completely bogus. Well you have said nothing here to prove it. In fact, no one here has designed any controlled experiment to prove it to be so. Until you test the theory, no human application of that theory will ever be valid.
yes
The fact is, a dice roll to the other end of a craps table in a casino no matter how, or where the dice land, or how hard they are thrown, produces a random roll as long as the dice hit the table then hit the back wall.
That is the rules the shooter must follow.
Any other way, to have the dice just touch the wall, is not following the rules that a shooter must follow and you will be asked not to roll the dice.
I saw John Scarne in the 70s demonstrate dice switching and dice control techniques. He was the best.
He blows away all the now-a-day experts and he did it all with out computers and video.
He could make it look like he was controlling the dice, rolling certain numbers more than others, but he was not compared to another shooter just rolling the dice. They both produced random dice rolls and its normal fluctuations.
Just because we "think" we can control something does not mean we actually can.
There is no need to prove a human or machine can change the dice roll distribution without changing the rules of what a shooter must do with the dice in an actual casino.
7Winner - someone says the world is flat. you prove them wrong and show them that the world is round. Or at least oval because the planet is slightly wider horizontally than is vertically(and thats a fact!). Some say that dice control is BS well, I want proof. And quite frankly so do most believers and nonbelievers who are willing to even consider the possibility.
So here's my proposal. Are there any engineers on the WoV forum? Let's build and scientifically test this experiment at the Wizard of Vegas convention. Put just the plain theory of whether it is possible to the test. For centuries people thought the world was flat. Few postulated that since the moon and sun appeared round that so was the Earth. No one had any way of proving this. But wait, more ancillary evidence suggest the world is round. Circumnavigation. Pictures from space. You do believe we actually made it to space ? I hope. Not some government conspiracy.
And with respect to bowling, there are over 2 dozen different types of oil conditions. There are dozens of balls with differing material from plastic to urethane. Some have high flare potentials because the core is designed like a door knob. Others are uniform in the core. There are many nuances to bowling that make it more and less random than most people think.
Is it possible that you are serious? Sure, there are engineers on this forum. Did you take a look at that bowling robot? How much do you think it cost to design and build? I suppose Harrah's could throw money away on such a venture if they wanted to, but unless you have a large pot of gold you are willing to contribute, I don't think this forum membership is going to build such a thing. At least not one with enough precision to give definitive answers.Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy... So here's my proposal. Are there any engineers on the WoV forum? Let's build and scientifically test this experiment at the Wizard of Vegas convention. Put just the plain theory of whether it is possible to the test. ....
I don't see any good way to test the concept other than getting someone who claims that he/she personally can influence the dice and have them roll the bones an extremely large number of times. The Wizard reported watching one limited test, but to have a conclusive experiment I expect you would need to roll the dice many, many, many more times than in that test. And then there would be excuses.
Quote: Doc
I don't see any good way to test the concept other than getting someone who claims that he/she personally can influence the dice and have them roll the bones an extremely large number of times. The Wizard reported watching one limited test, but to have a conclusive experiment I expect you would need to roll the dice many, many, many more times than in that test. And then there would be excuses.
Maybe Mythbusters would like a visit from the Wizard!
He would look good again on TV.
Not fun enough. I still think we should take over a table and all bet the don'ts laying max odds each time. Maybe another group could do the dice control experiment while we whoop it up.Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddySo here's my proposal. Are there any engineers on the WoV forum? Let's build and scientifically test this experiment at the Wizard of Vegas convention.
There is a decent chance that a reality show or gambling documentary might be interested in such a challenge. However, it would take a legitimate challenger who doesn't mind blowing his cover. Any volunteers?
Quote: DocIs it possible that you are serious? Sure, there are engineers on this forum. Did you take a look at that bowling robot? How much do you think it cost to design and build? I suppose Harrah's could throw money away on such a venture if they wanted to, but unless you have a large pot of gold you are willing to contribute, I don't think this forum membership is going to build such a thing. At least not one with enough precision to give definitive answers.
Even if somebody built a dice-throwing robot and demonstrated a significant degree of control, that would not prove that humans could do it.
Quote: DocI don't see any good way to test the concept other than getting someone who claims that he/she personally can influence the dice and have them roll the bones an extremely large number of times. The Wizard reported watching one limited test, but to have a conclusive experiment I expect you would need to roll the dice many, many, many more times than in that test. And then there would be excuses.
I still think that super-slo-mo video is more practical. If a shooter claims to be an on-axis shooter, if would be relatively simple to see whether, in fact, the dice stayed on axis. If a shooter claims to be a "correlation" shooter, then it would be somewhat more complicated to see how often the two dice stayed "in pitch", off by one rotation or the "dreaded double-pitch".
They had a couple of shows on the History Channel a couple of years ago, but in one they showed the dice leaving the shooter's hand, then showed two dice landing, but not the flight in between, so you couldn't even tell whether it was the same throw. In the other one, they just showed a couple of shots, and it appeared to me that the dice bounced randomly.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Quote: goatcabinI still think that super-slo-mo video is more practical. If a shooter claims to be an on-axis shooter, if would be relatively simple to see whether, in fact, the dice stayed on axis. If a shooter claims to be a "correlation" shooter, then it would be somewhat more complicated to see how often the two dice stayed "in pitch", off by one rotation or the "dreaded double-pitch".
You're thinking about using standard casino dice, but if you use custom precision dice it's much easier. Color two opposing faces pure white and the other four faces a different black or dark grey pattern (e.g. all black, all grey, diagonal stripe, horizontal stripe). The dice are always set such that the white faces are on-axis and the dark faces match up. You can tell visually and in real-time whether a white face ever turns face up, and you can also tell when the dice come to rest whether the off-axial faces are still correlated.
You could go one step further and make the two dice individually distinctive, for example with a small mark in the corner of the white faces of one die. Then you'd make sure each trial used the same die in the same position (e.g. marked die is leftmost in the shooter's hand), and you could track the trial results for each individual die. Under the assumption of control, one could learn, for example, whether the shooter were double-pitching with the right die.
Quote: MathExtremistYou're thinking about using standard casino dice, but if you use custom precision dice it's much easier. Color two opposing faces pure white and the other four faces a different black or dark grey pattern (e.g. all black, all grey, diagonal stripe, horizontal stripe). The dice are always set such that the white faces are on-axis and the dark faces match up. You can tell visually and in real-time whether a white face ever turns face up, and you can also tell when the dice come to rest whether the off-axial faces are still correlated.
You could go one step further and make the two dice individually distinctive, for example with a small mark in the corner of the white faces of one die. Then you'd make sure each trial used the same die in the same position (e.g. marked die is leftmost in the shooter's hand), and you could track the trial results for each individual die. Under the assumption of control, one could learn, for example, whether the shooter were double-pitching with the right die.
Those are excellent ideas, but how are you going to get dice like that which are also machined to casino tolerances?
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Quote: MathExtremistFair enough, but that only strengthens my point - does anyone really think they can have a greater than 30% chance of influencing the dice without the casino spotting it and saying "just throw them against the back wall, sir"?
I kept increasing the efficacy and at 45% per die, that reduces the seven percentage to 15.824%, and that's still only 1 in 6.31. To get 1 in 6.5, you'd have to achieve more than 50% efficacy per die. IIRC, "Heavy", or Steve (can't remember his last name) on RCG was claiming an SRR of something like 8.5!
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Quote: guido111Scoblete writes a lot of books. I do not think he sells many.
He does have dice control classes thru http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/
His website is, Buy this, Buy this, Buy this.
Golden Primer Package cost: $1995
Silver Primer Package cost: $1495
Refresher Class Cost: $1295
just to show a few.
I have to go sign up for a class. This guy is the best.
Only $2000 and they treat you like a King!
And while I'm at that, I just got another email that I won $15,000,000 US in an email lottery.
WOW!!!
It IS my lucky day!
HI HO HI HO IT's off to work I go!
Honey, our dog now can have that operation to remove the mail man from his mouth!
Hey Guido,
Maybe we both could learn dice control from the "masters" at a discounted rate. Im not planing on living too much longer anyways.
I also have so much email lottery winnings but no time to collect.
Last visit to Vegas last month, these 2 jokers claiming they could roll any numbers at any time had the worst hands I have ever seen. Never got past 5 rolls and "7out"!
Their excuse was that they did not warm up properly. The table laughed as they walked away.
ALL DIs have their excuses for everything.
The worse ones sell their junk.
Quote: 7winnerremember it is still OK to think the earth is flat.
Yep. And if that flat earth thinker doesn't delay the game and the dice hit the back-board, the casino doesn't care what he believes about the earth or the dice. They are only concerned about his action and his speed.
