StricklyAP/WizardofNothing

Quote: DRich

Does Pennsylvania Gaming Board offer transcripts or videos of their meeting? I believe most jurisdictions do.

Good question

I dont see anything about it on their website nor whether it would be something publicly available

Apart from an attorney making a request through the court i dont see how one would find out

If I had any interest in it, I'd call them and ask. That's just me. Others would sit around and hope someone else does something.

Quote: billryan

If I had any interest in it, I'd call them and ask. That's just me. Others would sit around and hope someone else does something.

I have an interest

Which is precisely why im not calling them lol

Quote: darkoz

The only game you can bet against yourself (without a partner next to you) would be e-roulette if im not mistaken

Ummm... Bubble craps?

Quote: FCBLComish

Ummm... Bubble craps?

You can't doey-don't in bubble craps....at least not the Aruze "shoot to win" machines, IME.

Quote: FCBLComish

Ummm... Bubble craps?

No e-craps game i am aware of allows you to do that. The offset bets are refused. You would need a partner playing against you

Also e-roulette games have been upgraded at most places so low volatility (ie betting against yourself even inside numbers) is not allowed

But a year or two ago it could be done

How do you know even the best AP' couldn't figure it out?

Someone could know but that doesn't mean they would post it up.

There's a vast amount of reasons one would put bills in and cash out.

I have an idea why one would do that WITH jamming machines.and it would be beneficial to the person doing so, and yet it wouldn't be illegal, however, there's more than one reason one would do that. No AP is a mind reader to know exactly what the person was doing . It could of been a combination of things since there's multiple reason's to do so.

The only thing that makes sense given what PAGC said was happening. Let's pretend they have the video facts. One could claim it was a Drawing or JP promo, Of course you would claim that , especially if they were accusing you of something. How long ago was that promo?

A: They said putting in bills and NO PLAY. That would exclude roulette plays or anything that involves playing the machine.
Let's assume that's's correct. Lets assume bills were put in and JUST cahed out, PERIOD.

B: machines were jammed during this.situation.

Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold. Given what gaming said..This is the most likely senario.

Obviously if you have more information than what was givent then things can change, but that doesn't mean the brightness AP'a could not figure out what was going on. No one has all the details and truth so obviously no one knows what exactly was going on. It could have been many things. Given the information from PAGC we have the answer. Of they are incorrect then none has the answer the people doing whatever it is.

I just don't like how since you couldn't figure it out that you said the brightness AP''s couldn't figure it out, especially when there's lots of senarios, and it's impossible without all fact to know 100% what was going on.

Quote: AxelWolf

How do you know even the best AP' couldn't figure it out?

Someone could know but that doesn't mean they would post it up.

There's a vast amount of reasons one would put bills in and cash out.

I have an idea why one would do that WITH jamming machines.and it would be beneficial to the person doing so, and yet it wouldn't be illegal, however, there's more than one reason one would do that. No AP is a mind reader to know exactly what the person was doing . It could of been a combination of things since there's multiple reason's to do so.

The only thing that makes sense given what PAGC said was happening. Let's pretend they have the video facts. One could claim it was a Drawing or JP promo, Of course you would claim that , especially if they were accusing you of something. How long ago was that promo?

A: They said putting in bills and NO PLAY. That would exclude roulette plays or anything that involves playing the machine.
Let's assume that's's correct. Lets assume bills were put in and JUST cahed out, PERIOD.

B: machines were jammed during this.situation.

Jamming machines would get techs to open machines and some machines will show you the machines hold. Given what gaming said..This is the most likely senario.

Obviously if you have more information than what was givent then things can change, but that doesn't mean the brightness AP'a could not figure out what was going on. No one has all the details and truth so obviously no one knows what exactly was going on. It could have been many things. Given the information from PAGC we have the answer. Of they are incorrect then none has the answer the people doing whatever it is.

I just don't like how since you couldn't figure it out that you said the brightness AP''s couldn't figure it out, especially when there's lots of senarios, and it's impossible without all fact to know 100% what was going on.

It was nothing personal axel :)

Quote: darkoz

It was nothing personal axel :)

It's always personal (-;

Another reason to put in bills and cash out is if you find a machine where the bill validator denomination is set wrong.

You might find a dollar machine that has the validator set for quarters. Put in a $20 bill and cash out $80 without playing.

Quote: DRich

Another reason to put in bills and cash out is if you find a machine where the bill validator denomination is set wrong.

You might find a dollar machine that has the validator set for quarters. Put in a $20 bill and cash out $80 without playing.

I don't know any machines like this, but if I found one I would think you would want to play it. Even if it had an horrid 80% return... 80% x 4 = 320%

Edit: tell me more about this machine... Location and title will do... Nothing big... :-)

Quote: DRich

Another reason to put in bills and cash out is if you find a machine where the bill validator denomination is set wrong.

You might find a dollar machine that has the validator set for quarters. Put in a $20 bill and cash out $80 without playing.

That would almost certainly qualify as theft in the same way one might find an ATM that overpays and one keeps going back to clean it out

Quote: darkoz

That would almost certainly qualify as theft in the same way one might find an ATM that overpays and one keeps going back to clean it out

You're probably right. I did find a self checkout register where the $20s and the $1 were mixed up once.

Quote: DRich

Another reason to put in bills and cash out is if you find a machine where the bill validator denomination is set wrong.

You might find a dollar machine that has the validator set for quarters. Put in a $20 bill and cash out $80 without playing.

Zero risk 400% return in five seconds , the pantheon of AP plays

Quote: prozema

You're probably right. I did find a self checkout register where the $20s and the $1 were mixed up once.

At any rate that wasnt the case here

WON was observed putting hundreds in not twenties

Quote: prozema

You're probably right. I did find a self checkout register where the $20s and the $1 were mixed up once.

Well those are begging to be stolen from.

Why would I hit the $4.99/lb honeycrisp button when red delicious are only $2.99/lb?

Quote: gamerfreak

Well those are begging to be stolen from.

Why would I hit the $4.99/lb honeycrisp button when red delicious are only $2.99/lb?

Right... Like I'm supposed to be an apple expert?

For a second there I was expecting to get a morality lecture.

As an aside... Apples are grown in the state I live in... Bananas are not... This has always fantasized me because apples cost significantly more per pound than apples. I cant mail something on a per pound basis for the cost of a banana, and they are shipped from far away.

Quote: prozema

Right... Like I'm supposed to be an apple expert?

For a second there I was expecting to get a morality lecture.

As an aside... Apples are grown in the state I live in... Bananas are not... This has always fantasized me because apples cost significantly more per pound than apples. I cant mail something on a per pound basis for the cost of a banana, and they are shipped from far away.

I’m not sure why Bannana’s are so cheap, but it’s funny with apples here, there are many “tourist” orchards where you can go and pick your own apples, and many times they charge you 2x to go out and pick your own than what they cost in the grocery store.

Quote: gamerfreak

Well those are begging to be stolen from.

Why would I hit the $4.99/lb honeycrisp button when red delicious are only $2.99/lb?

Because you aren't a petty thief.

Quote: gamerfreak

Well those are begging to be stolen from.

Why would I hit the $4.99/lb honeycrisp button when red delicious are only $2.99/lb?

Why pay 4.99 pound for red and yellow peppers when green ones are .99 pound. How would I know that the color matters.

Quote: GWAE

Why pay 4.99 pound for red and yellow peppers when green ones are .99 pound. How would I know that the color matters.

This whole thread has now devolved to the cost of fruit lol

And the morality police have arrived... sorry guys... I'm no angel.

Anyway, back to bananas... This wiki page has a section about American fruit companies involvement in the babana wars. There are several books on the topic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

IMO, what Dole and Chitquia did is way worse than "accidentally" pushing the wrong button at a self checkout register.

Besides, Walmart is still open with all those self checkout lanes and they are paying fewer humans to scan and bag items.

I'm saving Walmart a bundle using self checkout... I should get a discount for using it anyways..

Quote: darkoz

This whole thread has now devolved to the cost of fruit lol

I think we've covered the WON thing pretty well at this point.

Quote: prozema

I think we've covered the WON thing pretty well at this point.

Yeah but he does keep doing things to make the thread come back. What's next?

Quote: GWAE

Yeah but he does keep doing things to make the thread come back. What's next?

Maybe he has a strong opinion on self checkout or fruit? Ha!

Edit: OMG... what if I'm WON?!?

Quote: billryan

Because you aren't a petty thief.

I’ve never stolen in my life (ok maybe a toy car from preschool when I was like a 3yo) and I don’t actually do the Apple thing, if that makes you feel a little bit better about humanity.

Quote: prozema

Maybe he has a strong opinion on self checkout or fruit? Ha!

Edit: OMG... what if I'm WON?!?

Maybe it would be more beneficial to start a cost of fruit thread

Quote: gamerfreak

I’ve never stolen in my life (ok maybe a toy car from preschool when I was like a 3yo) and I don’t actually do the Apple thing, if that makes you feel a little bit better about humanity.

Humanity sucks.

Quote: billryan

Humanity sucks.

Actually, we inhale.

Our sucking is only half the battle, we gotta blow as well.

Quote: MrV

Actually, we inhale.

Our sucking is only half the battle, we gotta blow as well.

I tell all my girlfriends that

Quote: MrV

.

Our sucking is only half the battle, we gotta blow as well.

Fruits...
Sucking...
Blowing...

We're about to get in trouble.

Quote: prozema

Fruits...
Sucking...
Blowing...

We're about to get in trouble.

Yea maybe this is the appropriate thread :)

That’s actually one of my biggest AP plays.

I buy the $5 apples at the $2 price, then I sell them to the homeless at a $6 price. Win/win/win.

Quote: RS

That’s actually one of my biggest AP plays.

I buy the $5 apples at the $2 price, then I sell them to the homeless at a $6 price. Win/win/win.

Wait are you the president/CEO of Rent-A-Center?

Quote: darkoz

Wait are you the president/CEO of Rent-A-Center?

Nah, they be unethical af.

Quote: darkoz

That would almost certainly qualify as theft in the same way one might find an ATM that overpays and one keeps going back to clean it out

Here in NEVADA this has been brought up with gaming a few times and nothing has come of it that i know about. Obviously, things can change and I have no idea if there has been anyone that has ever been charged for this(I have a feeling NO).

If they couldn't get Nestor and company for what they did, I can't imagine how they could get someone for this.

Years ago, in the 90's I had a discussion with Bob N. about the legality of playing overpaying machines(overpayers) and he used the ATM argument saying that he thought it was, in fact, illegal. However, since then, I think he has backed off on that argument and it being illegal(Again, this is just from what I seem to remember, I could be wrong that he backed off, it's been a long time). I have no Idea where he stands now. I doubt he would ever say, oh ya, that's totally legal, can I come play it too.

There have been MANY guys who have played hundreds of over payers and not one time have I ever heard of anyone that was arrested or convicted(this is all in NV and AC) I'm sure someone has been initially arrested at one time or another, hell, people have been arrested for card counting IIRC.

As has already been pointed out, It doesn't seem likely this was what was going on anyways. You need only to put one small bill in to check for miss calculating bill validators. They made it sound as if multiple $100 bills were being put into just a few machines and then being cashed out.

I don't know how often this occurs, but I can't imagine it happens enough to make it worthwhile for someone to go around checking. Think about how many times you and people you know have played machines throughout the years, It would be hard to find anyone that this has happened to. There have only been about 5 times that I know of and that's out of many AP's over many years. I'm, sure it happens multiple times a year but compared to the number of machines and people paying them I think it's fairly rare.

PA seems like the dumbest place to do anything murky. From what I understand they have some of the strictest gaming laws.

Perhaps Drich can give us an estimate on the odds of this happening.

I have often wondered if it's just a matter of bill validators getting mixed up and switched t a different machine or how this actully happens?

If its just matter of a bill validator being switched to another machine, how hard would it be for a group to switch them during the drop? All the validators are just sitting out on top of the machines. I have seen videos of people swapping out and entier blackjack/bac shoe.

TBH, I thought this went away with the machines all going to tito(is this still happening Drich?). I haven't heard of it since then. If not, I'm wondering if it will it read the tito and give you what the tito says or will it give you more? Or does it just work with bills?

FYI, I think it's VERY DUMB for this to even be possible, they should be able to make sure it cant ever happen. It seems like there could be someone on the inside who could set one up for an accomplice.
---------------------------------------
Prozema, You would want to play it, as opposed to just putting bills in and chasing out, if you wanted longevity and to get the most out of it. Obviously, if you were going to take advantage of a machine that was doing this, you would never want to just stick bills in cash out and then head to cashier or Tito machine going back and forth, that would be dumb, and surely you would get noticed soon enough.

You would want to play for a period of time between cashouts. Depending on what games and denominations were available you may NEVER want to put a bill in and cash out. You would probably want to play and go for hand-pays, assuming you could get them frequently enough, or a long cycle with a huge jackpot, as to why the denomination and games become a big factor. If it were a penny or nickel machine or somthing without frequent hand-pays you would have to take advantage of cashing out the tickets.

Quote: AxelWolf

Here in NEVADA this has been brought up with gaming a few times and nothing has come of it that i know about. Obviously, things can change and I have no idea if there has been anyone that has ever been charged for this(I have a feeling NO).

If they couldn't get Nestor and company for what they did, I can't imagine how they could get someone for this.

Years ago, in the 90's I had a discussion with Bob N. about the legality of playing overpaying machines(overpayers) and he used the ATM argument saying that he thought it was, in fact, illegal. However, since then, I think he has backed off on that argument and it being illegal(Again, this is just from what I seem to remember, I could be wrong that he backed off, it's been a long time). I have no Idea where he stands now. I doubt he would ever say, oh ya, that's totally legal, can I come play it too.

There have been MANY guys who have played hundreds of over payers and not one time have I ever heard of anyone that was arrested or convicted(this is all in NV and AC) I'm sure someone has been initially arrested at one time or another, hell, people have been arrested for card counting IIRC.

As has already been pointed out, It doesn't seem likely this was what was going on anyways. You need only to put one small bill in to check for miss calculating bill validators. They made it sound as if multiple $100 bills were being put into just a few machines and then being cashed out.

I don't know how often this occurs, but I can't imagine it happens enough to make it worthwhile for someone to go around checking. Think about how many times you and people you know have played machines throughout the years, It would be hard to find anyone that this has happened to. There have only been about 5 times that I know of and that's out of many AP's over many years. I'm, sure it happens multiple times a year but compared to the number of machines and people paying them I think it's fairly rare.

PA seems like the dumbest place to do anything murky. From what I understand they have some of the strictest gaming laws.

Perhaps Drich can give us an estimate on the odds of this happening.

I have often wondered if it's just a matter of bill validators getting mixed up and switched t a different machine or how this actully happens?

If its just matter of a bill validator being switched to another machine, how hard would it be for a group to switch them during the drop? All the validators are just sitting out on top of the machines. I have seen videos of people swapping out and entier blackjack/bac shoe.

TBH, I thought this went away with the machines all going to tito(is this still happening Drich?). I haven't heard of it since then. If not, I'm wondering if it will it read the tito and give you what the tito says or will it give you more? Or does it just work with bills?

FYI, I think it's VERY DUMB for this to even be possible, they should be able to make sure it cant ever happen. It seems like there could be someone on the inside who could set one up for an accomplice.
---------------------------------------
Prozema, You would want to play it, as opposed to just putting bills in and chasing out, if you wanted longevity and to get the most out of it. Obviously, if you were going to take advantage of a machine that was doing this, you would never want to just stick bills in cash out and then head to cashier or Tito machine going back and forth, that would be dumb, and surely you would get noticed soon enough.

You would want to play for a period of time between cashouts. Depending on what games and denominations were available you may NEVER want to put a bill in and cash out. You would probably want to play and go for hand-pays, assuming you could get them frequently enough, or a long cycle with a huge jackpot, as to why the denomination and games become a big factor. If it were a penny or nickel machine or somthing without frequent hand-pays you would have to take advantage of cashing out the tickets.

Totally agree. This isnt a play because its too random. I have never come across it myself

I think there is a difference between an overpay through a game played versus an out and out malfunction which is probably where nersessian sees it too

The VP bug was within the game mechanics itself. That is you had to play the game and something was wrong with the coding

A bad bill validator is different imo. I know its definitely a thin line and probably why the guys were charged in the VP bug scenario only to be let off two years later. A bad bill validator would probably be more cut and dried

Quote: GWAE

Why pay 4.99 pound for red and yellow peppers when green ones are .99 pound. How would I know that the color matters.

Do they have pepper Twinkies now?

I remember years ago reading there was a Casino that had a machine set up for Singapore dollars. People cleaned them out, I did think everyone was supposed to bring the money back, but I don't quite remember. I think I could say about it was definitely inside the United States, possibly Indiana.

Quote: darkoz

Totally agree. This isnt a play because its too random. I have never come across it myself

I think there is a difference between an overpay through a game played versus an out and out malfunction which is probably where nersessian sees it too

The VP bug was within the game mechanics itself. That is you had to play the game and something was wrong with the coding

A bad bill validator is different IMO. I know its definitely a thin line and probably why the guys were charged in the VP bug scenario only to be let off two years later. A bad bill validator would probably be more cut and dried

I have to disagree, especially when they were getting paid on hands they never even hit. They even had to do a series of things to make it happen(talk about intent) They put in money, they may or may not have even played, they produced a jackpot and took the money. How is that different than putting in a bill and playing a bit cashing out and then cashing in the ticket? I would have to think its much harder to prove one knew what was happening with a bad BV since you are just putting in a bill playing and then cashing out. It's all because the machine is malfunctioning and you are not doing anything a normal person isn't doing when playing. What they were doing was making the machine malfunction with a series of steps(normal people cant really do it.) IMO I think what they did was way much closer to the line than the other. If they can't charge Phil Ivey on what they did, I can't see how they can get anyone for putting in bills in and cashing out.

You are not going to the ATM to win or lose money. Slot machines are not ATM machines(unless you know how to work them(-;) I'm wondering, if you never play a hand or risk any money if that changes things at all? In that case, just make sure you play enough hands where it's technically possible you could lose money(as possible as 18 yo's in a row) But your honor, I could have lost 100 hands of VP in a row without a payback (-;

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Do they have pepper Twinkies now?

Seriously? It's like you are bating me (-;


Speaking of Twinkies.

Where is our underoo wearing BJ aficionado this weekend? (-;

Quote: AxelWolf

Seriously? It's like you are bating me (-;


Speaking of Twinkies.

Where is our underoo wearing BJ aficionado this weekend? (-;

You totally lost me with every sentence.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

You totally lost me with every sentence.

Axel misses ZK... Awww! (ewwww?)

Quote: prozema

Axel misses ZK... Awww! (ewwww?)

Nope, he is talking/joking about something else entirely...

Quote: AxelWolf

I have to disagree, especially when they were getting paid on hands they never even hit. They even had to do a series of things to make it happen(talk about intent) They put in money, they may or may not have even played, they produced a jackpot and took the money. How is that different than putting in a bill and playing a bit cashing out and then cashing in the ticket? I would have to think its much harder to prove one knew what was happening with a bad BV since you are just putting in a bill playing and then cashing out. It's all because the machine is malfunctioning and you are not doing anything a normal person isn't doing when playing. What they were doing was making the machine malfunction with a series of steps(normal people cant really do it.) IMO I think what they did was way much closer to the line than the other. If they can't charge Phil Ivey on what they did, I can't see how they can get anyone for putting in bills in and cashing out.

You are not going to the ATM to win or lose money. Slot machines are not ATM machines(unless you know how to work them(-;) I'm wondering, if you never play a hand or risk any money if that changes things at all? In that case, just make sure you play enough hands where it's technically possible you could lose money(as possible as 18 yo's in a row) But your honor, I could have lost 100 hands of VP in a row without a payback (-;

Well i cant agree or disagree

This is thin line stuff such that i could see different outcomes in different jurisdictions. Every case involves a prosecutor and defense arguing their sides. Sometimes it just comes down to one judges jurisprudence over another

Quote: darkoz

Well i cant agree or disagree

This is thin line stuff such that i could see different outcomes in different jurisdictions. Every case involves a prosecutor and defense arguing their sides. Sometimes it just comes down to one judges jurisprudence over another

It's probably not even a thin line in some jurisdictions. I was basically talking about NV and to some extent AC. I have no idea what would happen in some state like Washington.

Quote: AxelWolf

Perhaps Drich can give us an estimate on the odds of this happening.

I have often wondered if it's just a matter of bill validators getting mixed up and switched t a different machine or how this actully happens?

It is almost impossible with modern machines because they actually communicate via a protocol to the slot machine to ask what denom it is. This was more common back before multi-denom games. On older machines this would happen a fair amount on new casino openings. On the old machines you actually had to configure the validators separately from the machine and tell it what denom the machine is. Slot techs would be in a hurry to fix a machine and just install a new validator without configuring it.

I was in no way implying that this is what WON was doing. It was just an example of why people would put in money and cash out without playing.