StricklyAP/WizardofNothing
Quote: darkozI dont support the pennsylvania gaming commission as a responsible body either
They have banned many people for being under-age. I mean banned for life from casinos because you were caught inside when you were 16 or 20 seems a bit harsh imo
Nonetheless the ban stands and its public info now
Public, yes, but near meaningless IMO. If the PA gaming commission knew about any of the routine conduct of most of the members of this site in casinos, we’d all be on that list right along with him.
Quote: cwazyPublic, yes, but near meaningless IMO. If the PA gaming commission knew about any of the routine conduct of most of the members of this site in casinos, we’d all be on that list right along with him.
Lol call me crazy but i have to agree with cwazy
Quote: darkozLol call me crazy but i have to agree with cwazy
I’m screenshotting this :) .
Quote: cwazyI’m screenshotting this :) .
Ok but i claim copyright
Quote: cwazyYeah..I read some of the others on that list though. PA’s system is NOT like the Nevada Black Book that requires incredibly serious conduct to get into. Half the people in there are there for leaving their kids (some teenagers) in the car for 10 minutes while they get their slot fix.
Also not sure exactly what he did...it says that he put $100 bills into a slot machine and then hit the cash out button without playing. Is that a crime? What if you feed a few thousand into a machine and then have to go to the bathroom before you play? Based on this, that would get you thrown into their black book. Sounds like PA is definitely not the kind of place you want to do any AP activity...if putting money into a slot machine gets a statewide ban there, god help card counters and hole carders.
What I am saying is that it was probably the combination of suspicious activity AND his criminal background.
I'm not really sure what the involuntary exclusion process is in PA, but can you find anyone on that list banned for a legal AP activity? Every one that I read had some sort of criminal activity associated with it.
If you owned a casino, would you want to ban a career criminal who's doing weird stuff to your machines and not playing?
FYI, there seems to be some confusion about what laundering money is. Laundering money is just the process of disguising where the cash came from. Many people will have cash earned illicitly and put it into a slot machine and cash out. They now claim they won that money at the casino as opposed to earning it from an illicit source.
Any dirty money being tracked via serial number is now no longer his.
Quote: gamerfreakWhat I am saying is that it was probably the combination of suspicious activity AND his criminal background.
I'm not really sure what the involuntary exclusion process is in PA, but can you find anyone on that list banned for a legal AP activity? Every one that I read had some sort of criminal activity associated with it.
If you owned a casino, would you want to ban a career criminal who's doing weird stuff to your machines and not playing?
They can ban you for any activity if it threatens the profitability of the casinos in pa even if its legal ap
I think one person somewhere on that list was banned for card counting but theres over 800 listings so would have to open them all to find that person
99% are for illegal activities altho some were as petty as under age gambling or even loaning an ID so an under age gambler could have access
Leaving children in cars may seem petty crime but child endangerment can have serious consequences. Not sure i disagree with that
As to process a rep or investigator contacts the person for more info (which is somewhat inimical since he works for the commission. Kind of like an attorney for the opposition questioning you)
A "fair" hearing is given for you to attend if you wish to dispute the exclusion
To my knowledge out of 828 hearings there have been 828 exclusions
If true, well any court with a 100% successful prosecution rate is suspect imo and just a kangaroo court but its mandated by the state
Quote: SM777He's cleaning the money.
Well now you’re just speculating. There are a thousand potential reasons. Maybe he likes top-shelf liquor, and the waitresses at the casino he was at need to see a certain amount in the machine before they take the order. Maybe he was killing time. Maybe he needed to not look suspicious while scoping out a play, and thought feeding money in would be good cover.
Dirty money usually isn’t tracked via serial number. The only time that happens is when the DEA uses bills whose serial numbers they record to do controlled buys. But I have seen no allegation that he is involved with drugs. Finally, simply putting money in and cashing out is useless as a money laundering tool. If you’re trying to claim you won your dirty cash, you’re going to need W2G’s if playing cardless, or at the very least a player’s card with a net win for the year on it. If you’re just putting it in and cashing it out, your net win will be 0, you’ll have no W2G’s, and you haven’t accomplished a single thing.
Quote: cwazyWell now you’re just speculating. There are a thousand reasons. Maybe he likes top-shelf liquor, and the waitresses at the casino he was at need to see a certain amount in the machine before they take the order.
Dirty money usually isn’t tracked via serial number. The only time that happens is when the DEA uses bills whose serial numbers they record to do controlled buys. But I have seen no allegation that he is involved with drugs. Finally, simply putting money in and cashing out is useless as a money laundering tool. If you’re trying to claim you won your dirty cash, you’re going to need W2G’s if playing cardless, or at the very least a player’s card with a net win for the year on it. If you’re just putting it in and cashing it out, your net win will be 0 and you haven’t accomplished a single thing.
Yeah i was thinking the same thing
The question becomes what was he doing? WON is tok smart imo to do money laundering without cover
I mean putting in a $100 bill taking 5 fifty cent spins and cashing out then repeat would be like a real easy way to get around it
And the PA gambling commission didnt list money laundering so they probably are scratching their heads as to what he was doing
Knowing WON it was probably such a complicated hustle the commission would never figure out his true goals with that activity
Quote: cwazyFinally, simply putting money in and cashing out is useless as a money laundering tool. If you’re trying to claim you won your dirty cash, you’re going to need W2G’s if playing cardless, or at the very least a player’s card with a net win for the year on it. If you’re just putting it in and cashing it out, your net win will be 0, you’ll have no W2G’s, and you haven’t accomplished a single thing.
You are wrong on this one. It is very effective if the person claims these cashouts on their quarterly or yearly taxes as wins.
Quote: darkoz
Knowing WON it was probably such a complicated hustle the commission would never figure out his true goals with that activity
That is a statement I agree with you on (will miracles never cease lol). Of the 20 or so profiles I clicked on, this is by far the murkiest or all the cases. Based on the description, I doubt even the gaming control officer that put him in for this ban understood what was happening - he just knew it was an odd act by someone with a questionable past.
Quote: cwazyWell now you’re just speculating. There are a thousand potential reasons. Maybe he likes top-shelf liquor, and the waitresses at the casino he was at need to see a certain amount in the machine before they take the order. Maybe he was killing time. Maybe he needed to not look suspicious while scoping out a play, and thought feeding money in would be good cover.
Dirty money usually isn’t tracked via serial number. The only time that happens is when the DEA uses bills whose serial numbers they record to do controlled buys. But I have seen no allegation that he is involved with drugs. Finally, simply putting money in and cashing out is useless as a money laundering tool. If you’re trying to claim you won your dirty cash, you’re going to need W2G’s if playing cardless, or at the very least a player’s card with a net win for the year on it. If you’re just putting it in and cashing it out, your net win will be 0, you’ll have no W2G’s, and you haven’t accomplished a single thing.
I think the casino with first hand knowledge made the same determination as I just did. Doesn't mean it's correct. But aren't you speculating that he didn't launder money in the same way I and the casino are that he did?
The fact of the matter is the chances of getting banned for literally no reason and having done nothing wrong are quite slim.
And your second statement is very far from the truth as well.
Why even go to the casino with the bills? Now they have video evidence you didn't win or lose any money.Quote: DRichYou are wrong on this one. It is very effective if the person claims these cashouts on their quarterly or yearly taxes as wins.
Quote: DRichPutting bills in and cashing out without playing is one of the most common ways to launder money. The casinos are required to report that as suspicious activity to the Department of Treasury via FINCEN. My guess is that there were multiple Suspicious Activity Reports filed to Treasury and they said the casino could be held liable if they allow the player to continue doing it.
FYI, there seems to be some confusion about what laundering money is. Laundering money is just the process of disguising where the cash came from. Many people will have cash earned illicitly and put it into a slot machine and cash out. They now claim they won that money at the casino as opposed to earning it from an illicit source.
Wait I know this! "To conceal the source of money, as by channeling it through an intermediary."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UifycM6lBvQ
Quote: AxelWolfWhy even go to the casino with the bills? Now they have video evidence you didn't win or lose any money.
Because banks won't take the money if they believe it was derived from an illegal activity. Just like banks can't take the money from "legal in Nevada" pot dispensaries because they are considered illegal federally. If casinos see a pot dispensary owner playing in a casino it must be reported to FINCEN because the assumption is money laundering,
If the money was "won" from the casino the bank can then take it.
Quote: DRichYou are wrong on this one. It is very effective if the person claims these cashouts on their quarterly or yearly taxes as wins.
What would be the point? There’s no record of you having a net win. The IRS is well aware of how casinos work. You have wins and losses, and only the net win matters. If the net win is 0, you haven’t won anything, and the IRS can easily prove it.
For any substantial amount, you’d need a DOCUMENTED net win, either in the form of player’s club records or W2G’s. Otherwise no record of any kind is generated (unless the payout is over $10k). If you have no official records, you might as well just never go to the casino and tell the IRS you won it anyway. You’ll be in the same position with no records showing you won.
I get all that. My point was, just skip actually going into the casino and just report that you won it playing poker or whatever.Quote: DRichBecause banks won't take the money if they believe it was derived from an illegal activity. Just like banks can't take the money from "legal in Nevada" pot dispensaries because they are considered illegal federally. If casinos see a pot dispensary owner playing in a casino it must be reported to FINCEN because the assumption is money laundering,
If the money was "won" from the casino the bank can then take it.
Another innocent reason for putting hundreds in a machine you're not playing, you don't want to fill the hopper of the one you need to play (such as a must hit).
Quote: cwazyWhat would be the point? There’s no record of you having a net win. The IRS is well aware of how casinos work. You have wins and losses, and only the net win matters. If the net win is 0, you haven’t won anything, and the IRS can easily prove it.
For any substantial amount, you’d need a DOCUMENTED net win, either in the form of player’s club records or W2G’s. Otherwise no record of any kind is generated (unless the payout is over $10k). If you have no official records, you might as well just never go to the casino and tell the IRS you won it anyway. You’ll be in the same position with no records showing you won.
You are correct that if they decide to investigate it that it would not hold up. Basically by playing at the casino is the first line of cover to help avoid any suspicion. The goal is to not be suspected of having done anything wrong.
Quote: AxelWolfI get all that. My point was, just skip actually going into the casino and just report that you won it playing poker or whatever.
Because if for some reason they do suspect you of doing something the first thing the government will do is contact the casino about you. If the casino says that you are there all the time "playing", it will probably be dropped. Obviously if you are "playing" without a card the casino doesn't know if you won or lost.
I make a tito at one machine because it takes money and then use the tito on the one not accepting bills
It wasnt money laundering and the fact the casino says the ban was for doing tito without play means they really dont have a clue lol
Pretty sad imo
Quote: darkozI am pretty certain i know what WON was doing now that i have given it some thought and my knowledge of his plays
It wasnt money laundering and the fact the casino says the ban was for doing tito without play means they really dont have a clue lol
Pretty sad imo
Knowing what he was doing, and proving it are two different animals. Casinos banned him for the lowest denominator. Bottom line is he is banned.
Quote: billryanKnowing what he was doing, and proving it are two different animals. Casinos banned him for the lowest denominator. Bottom line is he is banned.
I agree that is the bottom line
I will state its almost certainly not money laundering
And almost certainly not illegal
I wonder how his hearing went
Casino security officer: "i dont know what he was doing but i dont like it. Ban him"
Commission judge:"okay what do you observe him doing that we should ban him for"
Casino security officer:"the only thing i see is him putting in money and cashing out. Looks good enough for me."
Commission judge: "Done" [hits gavel]
Quote: cwazyIt doesn’t say he did it all day though. How exactly would feeding $100’s into a machine help launder money anyway? People usually launder money by putting small bills and upgrading to larger ones. By putting $100’s, he was just going to get..more $100’s.
Typically, with notices of this sort, the agency does not give the "aggravating factors" associated with the offense -they provide a minimal description of an offense which they believe to have been proven. So "It doesn’t say he did it all day though" is not a useful observation.
Quote: gordonm888Typically, with notices of this sort, the agency does not give the "aggravating factors" associated with the offense -they provide a minimal description of an offense which they believe to have been proven. So "It doesn’t say he did it all day though" is not a useful observation.
If you read the notices of nearly every other person banned on this list it quickly becomes obvious that is not the case with this agency. They go out of their way to decribe details
A typical entry is: on April 4th the patron was observed using a an ID that did not belong to him to gain entry to a casino in Bensalem. Security apprehended him and he assaulted one of the guards. Patron pleaded guilty to 2nd degree assault on june 25th and was sentenced"
Thats just off the top of my head after reading dozens of peoples listings on that site (im sort of addicted. I check the site once a month or so which is how regularly they post new names)
Quote: darkoz
If you read the notices of nearly every other person banned on this list . . . (im sort of addicted. I check the site once a month or so which is how regularly they post new names)
Sounds somewhat analogous to checking the obituaries in the paper each morning - just to make sure you haven't died.
Quote: gordonm888Sounds somewhat analogous to checking the obituaries in the paper each morning - just to make sure you haven't died.
Yeah you,re probably right
Quote: NathanBanned from an entire State! Wow! Guess I shouldn't count on getting a legitimate and unused Macy's gift card from him anytime soon ;)
From WON you were not getting one regardless
Quote: darkozFrom WON you were not getting one regardless
:)
Quote: cwazyYeah..I read some of the others on that list though. PA’s system is NOT like the Nevada Black Book that requires incredibly serious conduct to get into. Half the people in there are there for leaving their kids (some teenagers) in the car for 10 minutes while they get their slot fix.
Also not sure exactly what he did...it says that he put $100 bills into a slot machine and then hit the cash out button without playing. Is that a crime? What if you feed a few thousand into a machine and then have to go to the bathroom before you play? Based on this, that would get you thrown into their black book. Sounds like PA is definitely not the kind of place you want to do any AP activity...if putting money into a slot machine gets a statewide ban there, god help card counters and hole carders.
I guess putting it in money and then having to suddenly pee, therefore cashing out immediately is not really suspicious if you do it like only once. I have went from not needing to pee at all to suddenly needing to pee really bad so that's understandable. Also you might put money in and then cash out immediately if you're not feeling the machine anymore. That's really not all that suspicious either. If you're doing the "Put money in and then immidiately cashing out many times in the same day, that's going to raise eyebrows and put extra eyes on you.
Quote: NathanI guess putting it in money and then having to suddenly pee, therefore cashing out immediately is not really suspicious if you do it like only once. I have went from not needing to pee at all to suddenly needing to pee really bad so that's understandable. Also you might put money in and then cash out immediately if you're not feeling the machine anymore. That's really not all that suspicious either. If you're doing the "Put money in and then immidiately cashing out many times in the same day, that's going to raise eyebrows and put extra eyes on you.
It was the size of the amount he was putting in. Most likely in the range of $2500 and then cashing out
He probably would do this about five or six times to achieve his goal
Thats the m.o. but i wont say what the AP move is
Only that while it appears to the uneducated like a classic money launder it is in fact not
Quote: gamerfreak"On February 19, 2016, Mr. xxx was observed feeding $100 bills into slot machines, immediately
cashing out, without playing the slot machines and sometimes jamming them while at a casino
located in Philadelphia, PA. Further investigation determined his presence in casinos would be
inimical."
Someone on another forum said by doing this (assuming this was his angle) was you load it up, cash out, and hope it says “machine out of paper”. It will always give you a voucher, but if you’re lucky a slot attendant will hand pay you.
Of course, there are also a million other possible reasons.
Quote: RSQuote: gamerfreak"On February 19, 2016, Mr. xxx was observed feeding $100 bills into slot machines, immediately
cashing out, without playing the slot machines and sometimes jamming them while at a casino
located in Philadelphia, PA. Further investigation determined his presence in casinos would be
inimical."
Someone on another forum said by doing this (assuming this was his angle) was you load it up, cash out, and hope it says “machine out of paper”. It will always give you a voucher, but if you’re lucky a slot attendant will hand pay you.
Of course, there are also a million other possible reasons.
I can't think of any AP move that would involve loading up and cashing out like DarkOz is saying. The only thing I can come up with falls more into the scam/cheating territory like the double dipperoo you mentioned.
Maybe I just don't know the play, people have told me that ATM's can be +EV in Vegas as well, which I never understood.
Quote: gamerfreakQuote: RSQuote: gamerfreak"On February 19, 2016, Mr. xxx was observed feeding $100 bills into slot machines, immediately
cashing out, without playing the slot machines and sometimes jamming them while at a casino
located in Philadelphia, PA. Further investigation determined his presence in casinos would be
inimical."
Someone on another forum said by doing this (assuming this was his angle) was you load it up, cash out, and hope it says “machine out of paper”. It will always give you a voucher, but if you’re lucky a slot attendant will hand pay you.
Of course, there are also a million other possible reasons.
I can't think of any AP move that would involve loading up and cashing out like DarkOz is saying. The only thing I can come up with falls more into the scam/cheating territory like the double dipperoo you mentioned.
Maybe I just don't know the play, people have told me that ATM's can be +EV in Vegas as well, which I never understood.
Tahoe too.
Quote: RSQuote: gamerfreak"On February 19, 2016, Mr. xxx was observed feeding $100 bills into slot machines, immediately
cashing out, without playing the slot machines and sometimes jamming them while at a casino
located in Philadelphia, PA. Further investigation determined his presence in casinos would be
inimical."
Someone on another forum said by doing this (assuming this was his angle) was you load it up, cash out, and hope it says “machine out of paper”. It will always give you a voucher, but if you’re lucky a slot attendant will hand pay you.
Of course, there are also a million other possible reasons.
Thats absolutely not the play
Quote: gamerfreakQuote: RSQuote: gamerfreak"On February 19, 2016, Mr. xxx was observed feeding $100 bills into slot machines, immediately
cashing out, without playing the slot machines and sometimes jamming them while at a casino
located in Philadelphia, PA. Further investigation determined his presence in casinos would be
inimical."
Someone on another forum said by doing this (assuming this was his angle) was you load it up, cash out, and hope it says “machine out of paper”. It will always give you a voucher, but if you’re lucky a slot attendant will hand pay you.
Of course, there are also a million other possible reasons.
I can't think of any AP move that would involve loading up and cashing out like DarkOz is saying. The only thing I can come up with falls more into the scam/cheating territory like the double dipperoo you mentioned.
Maybe I just don't know the play, people have told me that ATM's can be +EV in Vegas as well, which I never understood.
Its a very complicated play. WoN was certain he was the only one who knew about it
He only told me because i had certain info that made it possible (i didnt see the play myself) and he needed to share what he knew with my info to make it happen
EDIT: when i said i didnt see the play myself i meant i didnt figure it out on my own. WON showed it too me
Visually i watched him do it so i know it works
Well now I am kindof interested, NOT so I could do it, just so my limited knowledge of gambling increases incrementally. Also, anything anyone should know about it to avoid being a mark ? Of course, if you don't want to reveal anything more, please don't.Quote: darkozIts a very complicated play. WoN was certain he was the only one who knew about it
Quote: JohnnyQWell now I am kindof interested, NOT so I could do it, just so my limited knowledge of gambling increases incrementally. Also, anything anyone should know about it to avoid being a mark ? Of course, if you don't want to reveal anything more, please don't.
I have no qualms about revealing it
WoN shouldn't have shown me and then ripped off my daughter
But i know the overall animosity to revealing plays on here
I guess pm me
One reason someone might put a bunch of bills in a machine just cash out and not play is so they could have tickets ready for whoever is playing for/with them. It's much easier to hand someone a ticket to put in a machine instead of cash. It looks a little strange if you keep handing someone cash in a casino out in the open. Especially, if the person receiving it now has to count it. They can just look at the ticket and see how much it is.
It also saves the player time and a mildly arduous task if they can just add a ticket instead of putting one bill in at a time. Putting bills in can take a lot of time and sometimes you lose faster than you can put the bills in. It can be worthwhile just to have someone make tickets. Let's say, 2 people are partners on a big Must Hit, only one person can push the button, so the other can use his or her free time and make some slot tickets.
Some ticket redemption kiosks only pay out $20's and of you have a bunch of small bills it's easier to just feed them into a machine and get a ticket
Sometimes a particular machine won't take bills but it will take tickets.
Quote: darkozIt was the size of the amount he was putting in. Most likely in the range of $2500 and then cashing out
He probably would do this about five or six times to achieve his goal
Thats the m.o. but i wont say what the AP move is
Only that while it appears to the uneducated like a classic money launder it is in fact not
I believe the "AP" move in this case is to show some of the people he is trying to scam how much he is "winning" in slots. If they would only pay him for his expertise.......
Ask yourself why would someone want to jam the machines yet the casino has no clue whats going on and they can't find anything illegal going on because there really isn't.
If this is the reason I think, it's really laughable how dumb they are. But I can see why, after watching someone do this over and over and they have no clue why anyone would do this because it seems as of there is zero benefit that they would freak out.
Quote: PlaynewyorkNo nerve you just definitely do not know the play. The only play you know are the two you ruined when you got back roomed at valleyforge using a full make up and digsguisw with 20 players cards and the other one were you ruined another play worth a ton of money that I gave you and you used successfully
You just admitted you are WON
I touched nerves root canals the whole shebang lol
