WilliamofOrange
WilliamofOrange
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June 1st, 2017 at 8:03:00 PM permalink
Hi everyone. A brief intro about myself. I've been playing blackjack casually for a year and then gradually became more serious about it for another year thereafter. First I learned basic strategy and then moved on to card counting. At this time, I've been card counting for about a year non-professionally and made some decent side income.

Today for the first day, I found out that my home state of Missouri CRIMILIZES barring card counters. That means, casinos are not allowed to back off counters in my state and what they'll usually do instead is to shuffle the deck very frequently.

This came as a huge shock to me because I spent a lot of time reading materials on how to not get caught card counting. Things like cover, conversation, etc etc. And now it seems like it could all have been a waste of time. I might as well hold my fingers up in the air for the running count because I can't be backed off anyway.

I did not know this was a thing outside of New Jersey, are there any other states like mine?

So I have two main questions: Knowing this now, how should my overall blackjack behavior and strategy change? Should I still do cover plays even if they're costing me?

Also, what about the casinos that are a part of a larger group? Say, if I get "shuffled" at Harrah's Kansas City, would I be automatically backed off if I go to Ceasar's Palace in Vegas?

Life would be so much easier if I can just count cards in the open. Is that what I should do?
GWAE
GWAE
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June 1st, 2017 at 8:48:39 PM permalink
Can they flat bet you like AC?
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
GWAE
GWAE
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June 1st, 2017 at 8:48:42 PM permalink
Can they flat bet you like AC?
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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June 1st, 2017 at 8:56:57 PM permalink
Maintaining 'cover' will still be useful to you so that they do not start shuffling after every hand.

Its not going to go totally unnoticed but good luck to you.

Yes, a casino chain COULD ban you nation wide but its unlikely to happen without some really good cause.

Keep track of your bets and let us know how things go.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
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June 1st, 2017 at 8:57:02 PM permalink
Quote: WilliamofOrange

Hi everyone. A brief intro about myself. I've been playing blackjack casually for a year and then gradually became more serious about it for another year thereafter. First I learned basic strategy and then moved on to card counting. At this time, I've been card counting for about a year non-professionally and made some decent side income.

Today for the first day, I found out that my home state of Missouri CRIMILIZES barring card counters. That means, casinos are not allowed to back off counters in my state and what they'll usually do instead is to shuffle the deck very frequently.

This came as a huge shock to me because I spent a lot of time reading materials on how to not get caught card counting. Things like cover, conversation, etc etc. And now it seems like it could all have been a waste of time. I might as well hold my fingers up in the air for the running count because I can't be backed off anyway.

I did not know this was a thing outside of New Jersey, are there any other states like mine?

So I have two main questions: Knowing this now, how should my overall blackjack behavior and strategy change? Should I still do cover plays even if they're costing me?

Also, what about the casinos that are a part of a larger group? Say, if I get "shuffled" at Harrah's Kansas City, would I be automatically backed off if I go to Ceasar's Palace in Vegas?

Life would be so much easier if I can just count cards in the open. Is that what I should do?



Go ahead and tell me the difference between getting backed off and getting shuffled up on every hand? They're both backoffs in a sense. Preferential shuffling will eventually be taken to court in my opinion because its a pretty big gray area within the written law and can be seen as the casino manipulating the odds of a game thereby making it illegal.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
billryan
billryan
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June 1st, 2017 at 9:20:52 PM permalink
Be one of the smaller bettors at the table. No pitboss worth his paycheck will shuffle up to bother a $25-50 player when the rest of the table is betting more.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
WilliamofOrange
WilliamofOrange
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Joined: May 31, 2017
June 1st, 2017 at 9:26:37 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Can they flat bet you like AC?



I believe the law forbids that. Otherwise casinos would be doing that rather than shuffling.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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June 1st, 2017 at 9:26:52 PM permalink
Pretty progressive law for a state that still considers possession of small amounts of Marijuana a felony.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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June 1st, 2017 at 9:31:51 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Can they flat bet you like AC?


If this text of the law is correct, they can:
(a) Prevent someone from joining a game mid-deck;
(b) Flat-bet anyone who joins mid-deck;
(c) Prevent someone who does not bet on a hand from betting again until the deck is shuffled;
(d) Flat bet someone who does not bet on a hand until the deck is shuffled;
(e) Start using a double shoe.
billryan
billryan
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June 1st, 2017 at 9:41:35 PM permalink
What is a double shoe? Not sure I've ever heard that term before
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
WilliamofOrange
WilliamofOrange
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June 1st, 2017 at 10:09:13 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Pretty progressive law for a state that still considers possession of small amounts of Marijuana a felony.



Nah I would consider my state conservative. As recently as November we voted Trump with 19% edge over Clinton.
WilliamofOrange
WilliamofOrange
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June 1st, 2017 at 10:13:30 PM permalink
Is there a list of the states that protects counters? So far we have NJ and MO that I know of.
WilliamofOrange
WilliamofOrange
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June 1st, 2017 at 10:38:06 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

If m]this text of the law is correct, they can:
(a) Prevent someone from joining a game mid-deck;
(b) Flat-bet anyone who joins mid-deck;
(c) Prevent someone who does not bet on a hand from betting again until the deck is shuffled;
(d) Flat bet someone who does not bet on a hand until the deck is shuffled;
(e) Start using a double shoe.



In the article you linked, scroll down, it says

The Missouri Law Implies No Preferential Shuffling, or Flat Betting or Half-Shoeing a Player

so that rules out (b) (c) and (d)

and I have no idea what (e) is lol
RS
RS
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June 1st, 2017 at 11:43:25 PM permalink
Getting backed off and shuffled on every round is basically the same thing. Sure they can't kick you out, but they can make the game unplayable. The main benefit, I'd imagine, is there'd be a lower probability of getting back roomed.
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