Trump's Final 100 days
Quote: TigerWuWhy?
More degrees = less value. ECON101, supply and demand.
Quote:What do you base that conclusion on?
History. Look at after how more people got degrees then more jobs listed a degree as a requirement. What happens is with so many degrees out there the HR folks decide, "why not make a degree a requirement?" Few white collar office jobs require a degree to perform, yet look how many require it in hiring ads. Ever consider why this is?
Quote:No, I did not. My "mommy and daddy" paid for my college the first time around, and I was almost a straight-A student. The people with the worst work ethics were people who were terrible people anyway, regardless of how they got into college.
Perhaps you are an outlier. Generally when mommy and daddy pay the student takes it less serious.
Quote:Why is going to college "delaying" adulthood? What does that even mean? Being a college student is not a metric for being an adult or not.
It means you are not working full time, not doing the things adults do. Years ago, by age 24 you were quite possibly married, or were some other way on your own. Not hanging around a college campus. Really, you have not seen how less mature young adults are today vs. generations ago?
Quote:Your objections to free college range from bizarre to downright nonsensical.
Only to someone who lives in the Faculty Lounge literally or figuratively and has not spent much time in the real world. That you deny the correlation between students who pay taking it more seriously shows me you are probably more in the lounge than the real world.
https://newrepublic.com/article/79470/1895-8th-grade-final-exam-i-couldnt-pass-it-could-youQuote: SteverinosChris Cuomo had a fantastic interview with Joe Biden last night. Biden talked about how one of the reasons we became the most powerful country on Earth was our education system. We started offering K-12 public education for all around the turn of the century. I repeat, at the turn of the century. Do you think, today, that 12 years is enough?
It's not the length of time spent in the classroom, it is the quality. People wandering around now with multiple degrees for some reason say they cannot find employment. If you check that link, don't forget all those kids had many chores to help their parents survive besides schooling. Many of their parents were illiterate so there wasn't much help at home,, and of course no internet or cell phones.
1954 8th grade Civics test: http://www.rense.com/general75/pass.htm
Quote: Steverinos
1) Expansion of freedoms to study what you want, leading to happiness (not worried about studying something that you, kinda, want to study because you know you have to land a job that can pay back the debt you accumulated)? More happy people, means happy country?
Sounds to me like more useless majors. If you want to "study what you want" there are many ways. Internet, library, meetup groups, books. No need to pay tens of thousands. Just go study it!
Quote:2) Better-educated population leading to better decisions in society?
I doubt it. I subscribe to what an old man once said. "We are all born with a bucket of common sense. The more high learning you put in the bucket, the more common sense spills out." Some of the silliest ideas I have heard come from highly educated people.
Quote:3) Less reliance on public assistance?
I doubt it. The bottom part of society cannot handle college so it will be of little help.
Quote:4) Reduction in student loan debt upon graduation, which would increase the the chances of home ownership, starting a family, and accumulating wealth?
So will going to community college the first 2 years, going to in-state public schools and not making it a 4 year club-med vacation. And mostly not taking a stupid major. Watch some YouTube videos on people drowning in student debt. A very common thread is they took a stupid major with no job market for it.
Quote:Just look at what the investment in the GI bill did for our high productivity and economic growth we enjoyed during the postwar years. There are other solutions as well. What about interest-free student loans? HELP in Australia? I just get so frustrated with this mentality of "well it's the way we've always done it, so it's the best way to do it". No, that is usually NOT the case!
It comes down to people need to pay their own way. The GI Bill was a reward for service. Free College is a "reward" for just being alive. Really, the current system is years past its expiration date and the college system needs to collapse and be replaced with something for our day and age. Many colleges need to close. Fewer, not more, kids need to go. Instead of high schools spending so much time "preparing them for college" how about preparing them for LIFE?!
Quote: petroglyphhttps://newrepublic.com/article/79470/1895-8th-grade-final-exam-i-couldnt-pass-it-could-you
It's not the length of time spent in the classroom, it is the quality. People wandering around now with multiple degrees for some reason say they cannot find employment. If you check that link, don't forget all those kids had many chores to help their parents survive besides schooling. Many of their parents were illiterate so there wasn't much help at home,, and of course no internet or cell phones.
1954 8th grade Civics test: http://www.rense.com/general75/pass.htm
Those tests are always amazingly tough even if you take out the ones with a cultural/time component. BTW: You are correct on being illiterate. Many is the deed I find where someone, usually the wife but not always, signed with an "X."
Too many people think a degree or just "having a college education" means something. I remember often the best students were the most clueless as to how things really work. Read "Car Guys vs. Bean Counters" by Bob Lutz. GM had their pick of the litter, so you had to have an "A" average to even interview. Well, the hires took the "school" attitude to work with them. And GM made the most mediocre cars in the business.
Quote: SteverinosNah, the GI Bill was an investment, not a reward.
Call it both if you like, but you had to serve to collect. That is a reward where I come from.
I was searching, [but gave up] for the one posted by a columnist I used to follow Charlie Reese. He had listed the test from 8th grade somewhere in the midwest, [not the standard test] where the kids had to also list the circulatory system, his column was really good.Quote: AZDuffmanThose tests are always amazingly tough even if you take out the ones with a cultural/time component. BTW: You are correct on being illiterate. Many is the deed I find where someone, usually the wife but not always, signed with an "X."
Like Wizards handle says, "knowledge is good". You have said several times that people should consider a trade. The debt right now on college loans is 1.3 trillion dollars. That which is unpayable will be shouldered by the tax donkeys.
When I met my bride, my kids were entering college when she very thoughtfully gave me her opinion that kids should not go directly into college from high school. They should do something, even work, and get some life experience before setting into the college regimen. Now her words make so much sense, it is amazing. I wouldn't co sign for their college loans. The oldest went to a Lutheran school to get a Mrs. degree. Wow did that go poorly. Only one graduated. They each have some debt load. Sometimes I feel a little guilty for not paying, but not when they don't graduate.
One just wanted to party. I figured if someone was going to go party for a few years on my dime, it should be me? J/k I wouldn't pay for that, he has since become an engineer. Making people pay their own way, gives good life lessons.
Quote: petroglyph
When I met my bride, my kids were entering college when she very thoughtfully gave me her opinion that kids should not go directly into college from high school. They should do something, even work, and get some life experience before setting into the college regimen. Now her words make so much sense, it is amazing. I wouldn't co sign for their college loans. The oldest went to a Lutheran school to get a Mrs. degree. Wow did that go poorly. Only one graduated. They each have some debt load. Sometimes I feel a little guilty for not paying, but not when they don't graduate.
I really wish there was a way to require an "in between" year. If I was in charge of it, you would get zero in any student loans or grants your freshman year or/and until you reach the age of 20. IOW, no help until you show that you helped yourself. The dropout rate in the USA is insane. All that money. Down. The. Drain.
Quote: rxwineI don't really consider free college to be a giveaway like a new car, because you can require standards be met during the period of time spent. There is no sense in people attending who aren't meeting them.
Standards become meaningless. Schools will see the money and magically everyone will get a "B" average. If we require a test, we will hear whining about "teaching to the test."
I still stand by it. 1/3-1/2 of the students in college now do not belong there. Why make it "free" and send more?
Quote: RogerKintBoymimbo, asking for a government study that proves gov isn't as efficient as it claims, is like asking for Pepsi to provide a study that it doesn't cause diabetussss
I haven't said anything about the government studies that I've produced. I've just produced more recent statistics so that the discussion can continue.
As for government efficiency vs business efficiency, it's a trade off. In the end, private companies are for-profit, meaning that they charge as much as they can to provide a service. Normally competition lowers that price. You see that in fast food and in banking, because people have plethoras of choices to make. You don't have that choice in health care. You have very large companies, insurers, and pharmaceuticals setting prices in order to maximize profit and to minimize competition.
Governments, meanwhile, pay their employees more than necessary (unions) and have a level of inefficiency built into it, due to antiquidated thinking and old technology which drives up cost. But there is no profit motive either, so you can accept some inefficiency in order to provide a service cheaper and better than the private company.
Put it this way. If it costs McDonalds $2 and charges $3 for a burger in order to make a $1 in profit, a government can have $2.90 in costs and sell the same burger for $2.90 in order to save you .10. Private schools would be a good example of a real world argument, and I would argue health care is the same.
Quote: AZMore degrees = less value. ECON101, supply and demand.
Why would that be? Admission standards wouldn't change. Registrations wouldn't increase. What you might actually get is smart people with no money being able to make something of themselves because cost is no longer a barrier.
Besides which, parents pay anyway. Kids will take it seriously if they have had good work ethics through grade school.
And you could make "free" community college income tested and have people pay on a scale (that's how most of Canada does it -- the max you pay for college there is $6,700 (in province), and I don't see massive degree requirements for menial jobs nor do I see increasing admissions). Heck, most colleges offer bursaries to candidates with little financial means. Why have a financial barrier for entering higher education if you are qualified to go.
If anything, applications go up, standards go up, and registrations remain flat. That means you have more qualified people going to college.
Quote: boymimboWhy would that be? Admission standards wouldn't change. Registrations wouldn't increase. What you might actually get is smart people with no money being able to make something of themselves because cost is no longer a barrier.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here, but wouldn't smart people going to college because the cost is no longer a barrier mean the amount of registrations would increase?
Quote: boymimboI
Put it this way. If it costs McDonalds $2 and charges $3 for a burger in order to make a $1 in profit, a government can have $2.90 in costs and sell the same burger for $2.90 in order to save you .10. Private schools would be a good example of a real world argument, and I would argue health care is the same.
Mmmm.... Obama burgers aaaahhhh.
Quote: boymimboPut it this way. If it costs McDonalds $2 and charges $3 for a burger in order to make a $1 in profit, a government can have $2.90 in costs and sell the same burger for $2.90 in order to save you .10. Private schools would be a good example of a real world argument, and I would argue health care is the same.
I think it's more like --
It costs McDonalds $1.50 to make a burger plus $0.50 paid to their employee, for a total cost of $2, where you pay $3 for that burger, if you want it, and $0 if you don't want it.
Or the government can make a burger for $1.50 plus $2.50 paid to the person making it, for a total of $4, then you pay somewhere between $0 to $100 (based on your income, generally), whether you're going to eat the burger or not. If you want to eat at In N Out instead, you still gotta pay for that government burger.....or if you simply eat something healthier, you still gotta pay for that government burger.
Quote: AZDuffmanStandards become meaningless. Schools will see the money and magically everyone will get a "B" average. If we require a test, we will hear whining about "teaching to the test."
That's because you're not paying for the right thing.
If you pay someone to do a correct and professional job, and that person does it by the standards you've set up, then that's what you pay them for. You don't pay them for successes or failures of their students.
Frankly, if the instructor has done his /her job, the students should pass if they've done theirs.
Or, if your method is wrong you come up with a new one. But teaching already has a lot of effective methods.
Didn't you work as a bug exterminator once? If you did your job by the book and the bugs don't die, whose fault is that? Should you be paid less? I don't think so.
Quote: rxwineT
If you pay someone to do a correct and professional job, and that person does it by the standards you've set up, then that's what you pay them for. You don't pay them for successes or failures of their students.
Actually, I'd liken this to AP play. The idea is play correctly, not determine your success or failure on individual outcomes.
Quote: boymimboWhy would that be? Admission standards wouldn't change. Registrations wouldn't increase. What you might actually get is smart people with no money being able to make something of themselves because cost is no longer a barrier.
Sure they would increase. The whole idea is about getting more kids into college. Get more people their degrees. What the American liberal does not get is that in the places with "free" college the colleges are far more selective than they are in the USA. There are nowhere near the number of colleges in the USA. Space is limited. You do not make the cut, you do not get admitted and you have to get on with your life's work.
The USA has at this point too many colleges. A few are very selective but if you want to go to college you can go. The USA is right now in the first stages of a much needed shakeout as the current generation is seeing people in their late 20s with degrees barely helping them and the people with them in huge debt. Men in particular are deciding to take a trade or find their way without that piece of paper. More and more are doing it well.
The USA does not need more liberal arts majors. We need welders, truck drivers, machinists, plumbers, and dozens of other things that college does not at all prepare you for. My alma mater is lately down 25% from ideal enrollment and it has gone on a few years. It's sister state schools are almost all down a similar number. Most are retrenching to concentrate on a few core subjects. I see the whole system having to merge if this goes on a decade. "Free" college would just subsidize a system that badly needs change, allowing it to go on forever.
Besides which, parents pay anyway. Kids will take it seriously if they have had good work ethics through grade school.
Quote:And you could make "free" community college income tested and have people pay on a scale (that's how most of Canada does it -- the max you pay for college there is $6,700 (in province), and I don't see massive degree requirements for menial jobs nor do I see increasing admissions). Heck, most colleges offer bursaries to candidates with little financial means. Why have a financial barrier for entering higher education if you are qualified to go.
If anything, applications go up, standards go up, and registrations remain flat. That means you have more qualified people going to college.
Free community college in the USA will mean the same group of slugs hanging around in 13th grade, postponing adulthood, as I have said elsewhere. While some people make good at a CC and it is a good system, making it "free" will ruin it.
Quote: RSI'm pretty sure public schools in the US get money based on how well the kids do on the standardized tests.
I think it is more they lose if the kids do bad. Every now and then you hear about cheating, principals changing answers on the tests.
Quote: AZDuffmanSure they would increase. The whole idea is about getting more kids into college. Get more people their degrees. What the American liberal does not get is that in the places with "free" college the colleges are far more selective than they are in the USA. There are nowhere near the number of colleges in the USA. Space is limited. You do not make the cut, you do not get admitted and you have to get on with your life's work.
The USA has at this point too many colleges. A few are very selective but if you want to go to college you can go. The USA is right now in the first stages of a much needed shakeout as the current generation is seeing people in their late 20s with degrees barely helping them and the people with them in huge debt. Men in particular are deciding to take a trade or find their way without that piece of paper. More and more are doing it well.
The USA does not need more liberal arts majors. We need welders, truck drivers, machinists, plumbers, and dozens of other things that college does not at all prepare you for. My alma mater is lately down 25% from ideal enrollment and it has gone on a few years. It's sister state schools are almost all down a similar number. Most are retrenching to concentrate on a few core subjects. I see the whole system having to merge if this goes on a decade. "Free" college would just subsidize a system that badly needs change, allowing it to go on forever.
Besides which, parents pay anyway. Kids will take it seriously if they have had good work ethics through grade school.
Free community college in the USA will mean the same group of slugs hanging around in 13th grade, postponing adulthood, as I have said elsewhere. While some people make good at a CC and it is a good system, making it "free" will ruin it.
I think it is more they lose if the kids do bad. Every now and then you hear about cheating, principals changing answers on the tests.
HBO did a documentary series about a school's administration doing just that. It was called Vice Principals. Super informative.
He beat her up
What a disgusting piece of human filth that was working in the WH
Quote: billryanHBO did a documentary series about a school's administration doing just that. It was called Vice Principals. Super informative.
Might be the same place for all I know. I really don't remember where or when I saw it. I do remember some pictograph in IIRC Time or USA Today that had a graphic saying "Number of states claiming students perform above average: 50"
Quote: terapinedI saw the pictures of Rob Porters ex
He beat her up
What a disgusting piece of human filth that was working in the WH
"Disgusting piece of human filth" is practically a job requirement to work in this administration...
Quote: petroglyphhttps://newrepublic.com/article/79470/1895-8th-grade-final-exam-i-couldnt-pass-it-could-you
It's not the length of time spent in the classroom, it is the quality. People wandering around now with multiple degrees for some reason say they cannot find employment. If you check that link, don't forget all those kids had many chores to help their parents survive besides schooling. Many of their parents were illiterate so there wasn't much help at home,, and of course no internet or cell phones.
1954 8th grade Civics test: http://www.rense.com/general75/pass.htm
Those "can you pass this exam" things are always stupid and completely ignore the fact that the kids taking those tests have just spent months being lectured on it every single day and doing homework on it and reading books about it and having the information drilled into their heads. If I, as a 40-something year old man, went back to 8th grade and sat in class with all of those kids doing the exact same homework and studying the exact same books, I could easily pass those tests, too. It has nothing to do with kids being "dumbed down" or our education system turning to crap. Show me the kid who took that 1954 civics test and ask him if he could answer those same questions 30 years after the fact and he would fail it immediately unless he has some kind of job in politics or he just studies it as a hobby. We ALL had tests like that in grade school, we ALL passed (well, mostly), and as soon as we were done we immediately flushed the information from our brains.
Quote: TigerWuThose "can you pass this exam" things are always stupid and completely ignore the fact that the kids taking those tests have just spent months being lectured on it every single day and doing homework on it and reading books about it and having the information drilled into their heads. If I, as a 40-something year old man, went back to 8th grade and sat in class with all of those kids doing the exact same homework and studying the exact same books, I could easily pass those tests, too. It has nothing to do with kids being "dumbed down" or our education system turning to crap. Show me the kid who took that 1954 civics test and ask him if he could answer those same questions 30 years after the fact and he would fail it immediately unless he has some kind of job in politics or he just studies it as a hobby. We ALL had tests like that in grade school, we ALL passed (well, mostly), and as soon as we were done we immediately flushed the information from our brains.
Assuming your statement is true, it still misses the point that the tests have been dumbed down for today's students.
Our education system has in many parts turned to crap. Not all of course. Where parents demand it, the schools are still good. In the inner cities we get kids that are totally clueless.
Quote: AZDuffmanAssuming your statement is true, it still misses the point that the tests have been dumbed down for today's students.
I mean, I guess I can't argue about "today's" standards... I haven't been in the public school system in over 20 years so I have no idea what's going on now. I just know I had some killer tests "back in the day" that I passed, but there's no way I would pass now because I haven't studied the subject matter in 25 years.
Quote: TigerWu...but there's no way I would pass now because I haven't studied the subject matter in 25 years.
This is why "Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader" was a good game show. It's amazing the amount of simple crap we can't remember from that long ago.
Quote: terapinedI saw the pictures of Rob Porters ex
He beat her up
What a disgusting piece of human filth that was working in the WH
Not only that but it appears John Kelly went out of his way to defend and protect him when he knew about the allegations.
It's a fine craftsman that can blame his tools.Quote: TigerWuThose "can you pass this exam" things are always stupid and completely ignore the fact that the kids taking those tests have just spent months being lectured on it every single day and doing homework on it and reading books about it and having the information drilled into their heads.
I have often marveled at how intelligent the framers of the constitution were, when they wrote the federalist papers, constitution, etc. They understood the relevant topics of the day, government, taxes, law, etc. much better than the average person today who involves themselves with social media, msm, or network news.Quote:If I, as a 40-something year old man, went back to 8th grade and sat in class with all of those kids doing the exact same homework and studying the exact same books, I could easily pass those tests, too. It has nothing to do with kids being "dumbed down" or our education system turning to crap. Show me the kid who took that 1954 civics test and ask him if he could answer those same questions 30 years after the fact and he would fail it immediately unless he has some kind of job in politics or he just studies it as a hobby. We ALL had tests like that in grade school, we ALL passed (well, mostly), and as soon as we were done we immediately flushed the information from our brains.
Grade schools are no longer a place of learning, but a socialized center for mind control and conditioning. The teachers are little more than social workers that are restricted from actually teaching. The training environment littered with federal rules choking off any chance of real learning so as to not offend the least of the students. Check it out for yourself. Everybody gets a trophy, for participation, so those that actually would excel are restrained from their potential. A place more interested in teaching alternative sex than reading and math, even in the earliest of grades.
There was a companion book , "none dare call it education" which was pretty good, and also "the dumming of America", for anyone interested in the subject. It's no longer in the best interest of the children or middle class. It's state sponsored day care, where parents can send their sick kids, so they can do other things. The ultimate responsibility for the learning of the child, lies with the parents.
Quote: SteverinosNot only that but it appears John Kelly went out of his way to defend and protect him when he knew about the allegations.
I'm shocked
How can you take a fist and punch a women's face
Its just so disgusting.
Last fight I got in was as a kid and it was another male kid
As you become an adult, you leave that behind, physical fighting.
unless you are a disgusting piece of filth
I hear Fox wont touch the story
Really sad after all the sexual harassment at Fox
Quote: terapinedI'm shocked
How can you take a fist and punch a women's face
Its just so disgusting.
Last fight I got in was as a kid and it was another male kid
Did you win?
Quote: RogerKintDid you win?
More of a wrestling match
Neither of us came out looking as horrible as Porters ex
Quote: petroglyphIt's a fine craftsman that can blame his tools.
I'm not sure how this relates to what I said.... unless I'm just missing a joke somewhere.
Quote: billryanThis administration allowed a mutt to work in the White House, meeting with the Pres and COS on an almost hourly basis without a security clearance.
I have a feeling that with this administration someone could just walk up to the front door of the White House with a briefcase and say, "Hi, I'm the new __________. Trump hired me yesterday," and the guards would be like, "Whatever, I don't care anymore. Go ahead," and just let them in.
Yes, my reply was intended to be a humorous response to your first sentence, "Those "can you pass this exam" things are always stupid ". The antiquated exam subjects may be old, and some of the topics now irrelevant, but mentally we should be able to divorce those subjects that only pertain to 100 years ago, from the tests of the early 21st century, using Iphones to help the students answer the questions. Personally I marvel at the wisdom of the ancients, compared to the average intelligence of today.Quote: TigerWuI'm not sure how this relates to what I said.... unless I'm just missing a joke somewhere.
It was not long after I was through high school that students were allowed to use calculators on math quiz's. Which would actually make the test not about math, but about a students ability to use a calculator.
My jest was an old saw, about a craftsperson blaming his tools for not making the product being created, appear perfectly [ stupid hammer!] Then his mentor replies, "it is a fine craftsman that can blame his tools", meaning of course, it is the worker who is at fault for the finished product, not the hammer, [test].
Thomas Jefferson's views on public education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_education
Quote: TigerWuI have a feeling that with this administration someone could just walk up to the front door of the White House with a briefcase and say, "Hi, I'm the new __________. Trump hired me yesterday," and the guards would be like, "Whatever, I don't care anymore. Go ahead," and just let them in.
Give it a try and let us know how it works out for you.
Didn't that already happen? No wait... must have been a different admin? .https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/09/20/350099389/white-house-alarm-man-jumps-fence-enters-residenceQuote: AZDuffmanGive it a try and let us know how it works out for you.
Or, could just shoot them with their baby in the back seat for crashing into a ballard out at the street? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shots-fired-u-s-capitol-report-article-1.1475378
Quote: billryanThis administration allowed a mutt to work in the White House, meeting with the Pres and COS on an almost hourly basis without a security clearance.
I am shocked
You got to be a real sicko to punch a woman in the face as an adult
Unless she is coming at you with a knife, there is absolutely no excuse
Its disgusting behavior
Quote: RSI haven't caught myself up on this supposed Porter beating wife thing. What did she do, if anything, to make him do that?
Both of his 2 ex wives make the claim. One has pictures
But your question implies its alright as long as she gave him good reason
Quote: RSI haven't caught myself up on this supposed Porter beating wife thing. What did she do, if anything, to make him do that?
She used words he did not like
so he went to his fists to shut her up and damage her face
there are pictures
sick
Quote: petroglyphEverybody gets a trophy, for participation, so those that actually would excel are restrained from their potential. A place more interested in teaching alternative sex than reading and math, even in the earliest of grades.
You mean kids don't get to skip grades anymore or do accelerated classes? Why would they stop that?
Quote: IbeatyouracesUnless there is undoctored video footage of him doing it, she has no proof. For all anyone knows, that's mascara around her eye.
She...or they? Both ex-wives have said he was physically abusive, one of them getting a temporary protective order against him in 2010. I'm sure she went through that trouble because she has a time machine and knew that he would be an important figure in a Trump administration 7 years later and wanted to engage in a "smear campaign" to make the Republican party look bad.
Unbelievable.
Quote: IbeatyouracesUnless there is undoctored video footage of him doing it, she has no proof. For all anyone knows, that's mascara around her eye.
ROTFL
James Wilkes Booth innocent - no videotape
Charles Manson and the cult innocent - no video tape
Let all prisoners go that were not convicted with video tape
Don't trust 100's of girls, Larry Nasser innocent till somebody provides the video tapes
LOL
