Any money you are playing with is YOURS, not the casino's.
If I won $300 from 8:00 to 10:00 , lost $500 from 13:00 to 14:00, and won $50 from 20:00 to 21:00 my result is a $150 loss. Anyone who spins the results any differently is fooling themselves about their results.
Well I don’t play roulette, but it’s every simple question that should be obvious to every player out there in a casino! “You lost money”
To begin with it’s your money as soon as you win it, this is what 98% of all players do not understand. Winning at any casino game is all about your betting strategies you use to win! Once the chips are pushed to you when you are playing roulette, they are now yours and should not go back to the casino.
All your play should have a constantly changing loss limit, so you do not give money back. You just won $300, and it’s ok to stay if you are having a good day, however you now have a $50 or $100 loss limit! Once you hit that limit it’s time to run as fast as you can out of the casino!
Ok I didn’t win big money, then on the other side of the picture I did win $700 or $750 depending what limit you set. There is always the next time you are going to play, walking with the max profit that you can get, this is what everybody should be looking for.
Greed will cost you money in the long run, take the smaller profit and add it to your bank roll, you just lived to play the next day!
To start with, the longer you stay playing at any game, the bigger chance you have of losing!
Quote: mrjjjNot arguing, only playing both sides. What do you say if you hear....when you went over the $500 you walked in with, that is NOW your money. You have free will to walk out the door. Some might say you lost $200 on the day. Ken
You make a good point. It can feel like I lost in that example.
I keep records of all my play and the easiest way for me to do that is to record wins and losses. That's why I call it a $100 win.
Only the very clever and the very brave manage to escape without being shook down.
Quote: benbakdoffOpinions will always vary on this topic, so here's my two cents worth. I'm up $100.
Any money you are playing with is YOURS, not the casino's.
LOL, Like chook sagely says: NONE of the money you have while you are in the casino is yours, until you LEAVE with it.
Quote: mrjjjchook stated: "All tallies should only be done outside the Casino" >>> Sooo, the person came out ahead, correct? Ken
$100 up.
This seems so simplistically obvious...
Quote: mrjjj"If you can bet it, eat it, set fire to it, blow your nose with it, or spend it, then it's your money" >>> You guys kill me. So the person LOST money (total) for the day, correct? Ken
What does whether he won or lost have anything to do with the question? Is this just another jjj-type response: having nothing to do with what was asked or said?
Let me put it in a way you might be able to understand: does the casino ever let you bet THEIR money? No! So if you can bet it, it's YOUR money.
A) He left with a profit?
B) He lost money on the day?
Quote: mrjjjsuperrick said this on page 1 >> "it’s every simple question that should be obvious to every player out there in a casino! “You lost money” <<< Would you (EvenBob) say he is wrong? Are the answers on this thread a fact or only opinion? Ken
What you win or lose can only be calculated when you've stopped playing. A fighter is way ahead on points till he gets knocked out in the 10th round. Did he win or lose? The answer is obvious, who cares what happened in the middle. You're leaving with $100 more than you came in with, you won. How can you calculate wins and losses when you're still playing?
Quote: mrjjj"What you win or lose can only be calculated when you've stopped playing." >>> Stopped playing.... FOR THAT DAY. When the guy walks out the casino door and to his car. Ken
Yes, how could you know how much you've won or lost till you leave the casino? Its meaningless till you've quit playing. Who pats himself on the back all the way home because he was up 3K at one point? It only means something if you stop playing right then.
Quote: mrjjjTHANK YOU kracker21 for your answer, very simple. I also agree and if no one minds, lets see where our consistency is, shall we? Ya walk in with $500, you get it up to 3K. You leave with $600....still a profit? The person does not have a loss for that day? Ken
This is an unrealistic scenario. This person would most likely leave with nothing. If one is not content being up $2500 then being up $100 would certainly not be a cause to stop gambling. This degenerate would keep going until the $500 is gone.
The first scenario I can see happening. BTW you would be up $100 for that casino.
Quote: mrjjj@Evenbob >> "how could you know how much you've won or lost till you leave the casino?" >>> At least in terms of an estimate, are you saying you would NOT know you are up around $300 much less $2,500? Not saying you're wrong EvenBob, I'm only asking if these are facts or opinions from you? I for one, believe the person is up $100 but you know why I ask and why I ask on different boards.....Because there will ALWAYS be different answers and once in a while, someone wants to agree with BOTH sides (not saying you). Ken
What good is it to be 'up' any amount of money if you don't stop playing at that point? I don't get it. Its gambling, its only meaningful if you stop playing so you can't lose what you've won.
Quote: mrjjj"BTW you would be up $100 for that casino" >>> Thank you, thats all I needed. Ken
One small clarification ... as long as it is in CASH. If it is stll in chips, then you haven't formally/technically won the $100 yet.
Most players are social players, that rather give money back, so the can stay at the tables and impress the rest of the players on the table with all their knowledge of the game!
Sorry to tell some of you that, but I see it everyday with some of the local players.
They were winning at one point, and then they gave it all back instead of walking out the door. They end up losing for the day, yes they do win some times when everything is going just right, and they have to be home at a certain time!
They could be out-of-town players that just want to play 24 -7 when they are in a casino, and yes they might have won some time during their play. If you think that you were up $20,000 and walked out a $700 winners is winning I got news for you, you are a loser!
That scenario actually happened one night, when a young guy couldn’t do anything wrong on his roll, it just kept going on, and with every stupid bet he was making, he won all of them. To bad he was drunk, and didn’t know when to stop.
The next morning when I saw him having breakfast, he asked me how much I had won, $3000 was the answer. Then he told me that he had won $700 and was damn proud of his win, I didn’t want to break his bubble, and didn’t tell him how much he lost! I didn’t get onto the table till his roll was just about over!
The way I got on the table was even better than his roll to show just how drunk he was, when a woman that he was trying to pick-up told me to get in on his roll, there was no room, so he tells one of the guys that he is working with to leave the table so I could play, sure did impress her!
Admitting that you fall into one of this category is hard to do, but if you want to win you got to see you’re self in the light of the day, and stop living in a fantasy world. Stop looking for the big win and walk when the table goes south. I‘ve had players tell me they are playing for the fun of it, that are So-Called DI’S; I just want to puke when I hear that!
If giving money to the casinos is fun, try giving it to me, I will at least thanks you for it, the casinos won’t do that, I might even tell you what a smart player you were, by giving it to me instead of the casino, what buffet do you want to go to? I think I might be able to set you up with one if the money is right!
By the way we all have done this before, and it might take years for you to see the light, and rethink when the money became you’re money! One way of learning about your money is to play like it’s the last you have, and after it’s gone you can not reach into your pocket and pull out more! Then sticking to it, you have $500 for a month of casino play and when it’s gone you can not play for two month after that!
Quote: mrjjj"it might take years for you to see the light, and rethink when the money became you’re money!"
Everybody knows when its their money, they just want more of it.
"Left xxx dollars on the table"
"You Never Count Your Money, When You're Sitting At The Table"
Most people go by the net sum of the activity. How much cash did you have in your wallet when you left home and how much cash in your wallet do you have when you come back. Oh sure, there are "adjustments" to this figure, such as: markers, cash advances, etc. And ofcourse there are the mental adjustments between gambling money and other expenses such as room, food, booze, gasoline, etc. Oh and yeah, there is always that money you give your spouse from your "winnings" even though its not from winnings at all.
But aside from the psychological adjustments about 'well, I would have had to have paid for meals anyway' or 'its entertainment', we all know what a loss is. If you buy in for X and walk away with Y then you compare the two and thats the result. You don't count the free drinks as income and you don't worry about the tips.
Anyone who hedges is explicitly comparing gains and losses during play. Anyone who talks about money he left on the table when he sevened out is doing a mental comparison of losses during play and gains during play. We all know that the moment you win the money it is yours and you can pick it up and leave. The "win" is your payment for the risk you took in making the wager. Yet no one takes a bet down when the dealer merely fists the table to indicate a push. YOu know you can, but you don't do it. You don't buy stocks at the exact bottom and sell at the exact top. You don't walk away from a craps table without having left some money there on the final roll.
Vegas is built on excitement. The workman who starts with twenty dollars and turns it into eighty grand at the tables has had great fun, but the casino manager is going to come around and give him a free room for that night and the next morning he will go back to the casino for "just a bit". The eighty grand comes back across the table and the workman checks out of the hotel carrying his own suitcases because he can't even afford the tip. He has his memories and the casino has "their" money or the casino has "his" money depending upon your moods at the moment. The poverty stricken workman who hit town virtually broke and who leaves town virtually broke, has his memories. Good or bad, he has his memories. The pretty girls, the free champagne, perhaps some commercial sex, the dreams ... he has had them. The casino books all losses as loans made to the player that are repayable at any casino at any time. The Casino Manager does his best to see that the loan is repaid promptly and repaid at his casino. Its the same reason the supermarket plays music for you or provides child-care for you: the longer you stay there the more you are going to spend. The casino gives you a free room to keep you there. The casino gives you the free drink and the cleavage and the legs solely to keep you in the casino and in the mood for gambling. The music, the sound of dropping coins ... its all to keep you "playing with the casino's money".
So in reality I go by the Bought in for one amount and walked away with another amount and that is the Win/Loss figure. The interim ups and downs are no more real than the smiles on the face of the waitress who knows that smiling at drunken old geezers is what her job is all about. The young woman who approaches me in the hotel corridor is after my money, no matter what her come-on spiel involves. The casino is after my money, no matter what interim spiels they give about winnings or atmosphere or entertainment.
When I was doing really really bad and just did not want that casino to get my last dollar, I went up to the cashier and cashed in my final white chip. Her joke about my possibly wanting a security escort to my car is just part of the casino's ploy to get every last drop there is! I went to a different casino to lose that last dollar, but it was a loss, even though it had an interim status of being cash in my pocket. It was part of my "gambling losses". The casino's Green-Eyeshade guy looks at a five dollar wager on Black at the roulette table and "sees" twenty six cents. If the bettor happens to win, the dealer pays off with an additional five dollars, but the Green Eyeshade guy sees another twenty-six cents being paid out and regards it as "the casino's twenty-six cents". That five dollar "win" is viewed by the casino as being their money.
So: do you lose the interim "winnings" or do you only do a net sum tally as you walk out the casino door? For different purposes, you do each. That one dollar I walked out of the old Barbary Coast with was just to make sure that they didn't clean me out entirely. I went to a neighboring casino to lose that final dollar. Psychologically I focus on " the casino did not get ALL of my money " but in reality, it did. It got that final dollar by owning the casino next door! Sure those two casinos use separate accounting ledgers, so do gamblers use separate ledgers. That is how a gambler can talk about "winnings" while he is sitting at the table, but the final result is all that really counts.
Most of us measure time in discrete intervals. We assess things at the end of an hour, or a day, or a year. If I ended up ahead $500 for the evening gambling, I consider myself to have won $500. So what if I was up $1500 at some point? That doesn't have meaning in and of itself. To say that I "lost" $1000 because I kept on playing after I hit my high point is arbitrary, and stupid. To clarify by looking at it from a different perspective, if I had been BEHIND $1500 but had gotten back to $500 ahead before quitting for the evening, would that mean I had WON $2000? Of course not. What matters is the SUM of all the results, not progress from some arbitrary benchmark.
If you consider your final results only in the light of how they differ from your absolute high and low points, you will exaggerate those results. You can drive yourself nuts by saying, "If only I had quit at Moment X, I would have had more money than I do now." But how would you have known at the time? Would a little bell have rung or something?
Fortunately, you were in a lucky day and won $600 before leaving, but that doesn't clear the fact you gave $500 to "enter" the game. You could have won $1500 or nothing, this wouldn't have changed, so yeah, you lose $500.
>>> Some of you guys want to keep YOURSELF off the hook. lol How would you have known at the time? Come on. If your buy in is for $500, lets say you are using nickel chips for example. Myself, I keep everything in 20 chip stacks. You would know if you were up around $275-$300. Just because those are CHIPS, does not mean they are not yours. Ok fine, you cant go grocery shopping with casino chips BUT you do have free will to get off the chair....walk over to the cashier window.....cash out.....leave casino. Are you saying that casino staff has a GUN to your head, forcing you to continue playing? KenQuote: mkl654321Obviously, if you start from Moment A and end at Moment B, and you have less money at B than you had at A, you've lost money for that period. But is that meaningful?
Most of us measure time in discrete intervals. We assess things at the end of an hour, or a day, or a year. If I ended up ahead $500 for the evening gambling, I consider myself to have won $500. So what if I was up $1500 at some point? That doesn't have meaning in and of itself. To say that I "lost" $1000 because I kept on playing after I hit my high point is arbitrary, and stupid. To clarify by looking at it from a different perspective, if I had been BEHIND $1500 but had gotten back to $500 ahead before quitting for the evening, would that mean I had WON $2000? Of course not. What matters is the SUM of all the results, not progress from some arbitrary benchmark.
If you consider your final results only in the light of how they differ from your absolute high and low points, you will exaggerate those results. You can drive yourself nuts by saying, "If only I had quit at Moment X, I would have had more money than I do now." But how would you have known at the time? Would a little bell have rung or something?
Point being, we each do what satisfies our self.
I'll say it over and over. If I wanted to make money, I'd go to work instead.
Don't mistake this attitude for lack of awareness; I'm plenty aware. As a matter of fact, knowing exactly what I'm doing is integral to my enjoying it. If I make a stupid bet and it loses, I'm not all bent out of shape about it. I knew I was paying for it. I shrug, I move on.
Winning beats losing. But sometimes losing beats breaking even. Sometimes the idea was to risk a certain amount in the pursuit of thrills; if that amount goes unrisked, then the desired thrills were not acquired.
Work is boring and profitable. Gambling is thrilling and unprofitable. I'll do the 50 hours a week to get the 4 hours a month. On December 31st I'm always way ahead, adding the two together.
Quote: MoscaMan, I don't stress it and I don't overthink it. If I feel like I want to keep playing, I do. If I feel like I should walk away, I do. If that sometimes happens on the same day, one time I walk and an hour later at a different table I stay, so what. If I want to play until I'm punked, big deal.
Point being, we each do what satisfies our self.
I'll say it over and over. If I wanted to make money, I'd go to work instead.
Don't mistake this attitude for lack of awareness; I'm plenty aware. As a matter of fact, knowing exactly what I'm doing is integral to my enjoying it. If I make a stupid bet and it loses, I'm not all bent out of shape about it. I knew I was paying for it. I shrug, I move on.
Winning beats losing. But sometimes losing beats breaking even. Sometimes the idea was to risk a certain amount in the pursuit of thrills; if that amount goes unrisked, then the desired thrills were not acquired.
Work is boring and profitable. Gambling is thrilling and unprofitable. I'll do the 50 hours a week to get the 4 hours a month. On December 31st I'm always way ahead, adding the two together.
Well said Mosca
Quote: Mosca
Winning beats losing. But sometimes losing beats breaking even. Sometimes the idea was to risk a certain amount in the pursuit of thrills; if that amount goes unrisked, then the desired thrills were not acquired.
Work is boring and profitable. Gambling is thrilling and unprofitable. I'll do the 50 hours a week to get the 4 hours a month. On December 31st I'm always way ahead, adding the two together.
The difference is I do care, and do not think that it is fun to give the casinos any of my money! So I will put in many long hours of practicing the game of craps, so I am betting the game right, and developing a plan of attack to the game, that will enhance my shooting skills!
I have heard the same argument before that, its good entertainment to lose, and that there is a big thrill involved when you do lose, what the hell is wrong with this world, when someone can make a statement like that? Is the younger generation programmed to be losers, does it start out with the little league, and the sport programs that give a trophy to every kid that plays on a team, to make them feel good about being a loser?
I was taught in order for you to win, you had to put a lot of time into anything you did in life, to come out a winner! If you want to be on top of your game, spend the time reading everything you can on what ever you play, and then practice as much as you can!
Research every facet of the game you are playing, to see what you are doing wrong.
Become a skeptic of what you are reading, or what someone else is telling you, prove out what you read, and don’t take anything for granted!
Then try on this scenario on for size, You went to work today and found out that the paycheck they just gave you will be your last one, you are now officially unemployed!
Old habits are hard to break, and you do have some savings, anyway you can see the handwriting on the wall, your money will run out in six months. You feel that you have good craps playing skills, and that you might be able to supplement your income if you play once or twice a week!
You set aside $1000 for your craps playing bankroll, when that is gone you can not play anymore! Now how do you look at that profit you left on the table?
There are a lot of local players that fall into that kind of scenario; they might be retired living off a fixed income, despite this fact I still see player giving money back, which should have gone into their pocket!
Isn’t greed a wonderful thing? Let’s see $800 versus $500; I think I will take the $500, smart move on your part!
Wake-up guys, any game you play should not be about losing, just so you can say you had fun, isn’t winning better than losing! Oh hell I forgot, these guys must have played little league baseball!
Look at your money as an investment, which you can’t lose! I hear a lot about the stock market from craps players that tell me sometimes they make a bad investment but they will get it back on the next one they do. To bad they don’t do the research on their investments and take their information from Joe Schmuck that is selling them the stock!
Quote: superrick
The difference is I do care, and do not think that it is fun to give the casinos any of my money!
So I will put in many long hours of practicing the game of craps
I didn't get past the latter sentence--i was too busy rolling on the floor, laughing.
Quote: mkl654321I didn't get past the latter sentence--i was too busy rolling on the floor, laughing.
You are a button pusher! I was thinking the same thing -- practice (ala Allen Iverson).
If you watch people, they have no idea what to do when they win, except give it back to the casino. I used to think it was greed, now I think they just aren't very bright.
Quote: superrick
I was taught in order for you to win, you had to put a lot of time into anything you did in life, to come out a winner!
Life is a series of interdependent steps where practicing on Monday can help you do better on Tuesday (at work, at school, etc.). Craps is a sequence of purely independent random events in which "practice", whatever that might mean, cannot change the odds. In short, craps is not life, and nothing you do can ensure you will come out a winner in craps.
Its denial for some. If they cant win, might as well pawn it off as, "oh well, but I had a good time". KenQuote: EvenBob))I have heard the same argument before that, its good entertainment to lose, and that there is a big thrill involved when you do lose, what the hell is wrong with this world, when someone can make a statement like that? Is the younger generation programmed to be losers{{
If you watch people, they have no idea what to do when they win, except give it back to the casino. I used to think it was greed, now I think they just aren't very bright.
Quote: superrick
The difference is I do care, and do not think that it is fun to give the casinos any of my money! So I will put in many long hours of practicing the game of craps, so I am betting the game right, and developing a plan of attack to the game, that will enhance my shooting skills!
That is my entire point, in a nutshell: If that's what you like, then that's what you should do. No one is getting murdered, no harm is being done. Some folks are pulling cards and rolling dice and spinning wheels. Each individual is free to understand the risks and take the chances as he/she sees fit. Since we are different people, we will get excited by different aspects of these games. What's right for me won't be right for you.
Now, you could call me a numbskull, and I could call you a killjoy; but a better solution would be to use this forum to see that we're all actually getting what we want, in different ways, from the same game. And when we go back to work Monday morning, one of us use her unique perspective to engineer something useful, and the other will use his to figure out a way to bring it to market, and through our differences we both prosper.