Slot machine jackpots only!!!!!!!
My favorite game ever
Quote: BTLWIMade good money on this one
https://imgur.com/akBU0oc
Lost money on this one
https://imgur.com/xFANEJP
Still nice hits, though. You're probably one of the few people who can say they're up, lifetime, against reels.
Here's what we get to play -
https://imgur.com/aSInsKx
Since we have VIP cards we can lock up a machine for 2-3 hours via slot attendant. I suggest we go eat in the VIP lounge since we could be here many hours if it takes us to the top.
1:20 PM. Back from eating and ready to play. The first $1000 lasts 22 minutes. We bet $5/spin but you can double press any bet button to stop the reel animation. Since we don't want to be there 20 hours we always stop our spins.
1:42 PM Another $1000. This grand goes even quicker at 17 minutes.
1:59 PM we put in another $1000. This time the money is actually lasting. We're hitting bonuses and good line hits.
2:20 PM. The machine does an animation indicating we've won either the Minor or the Major. You don't know for about 7 seconds until the animation stops so the whole time we cheer, "Major Major!".
This time our chants influenced the outcome! Who knew you could do that?
https://imgur.com/FDSh8SK
We get our divided W2's by 3 PM, split the remaining credits in the machine and celebrate with some comped sushi later on that evening.
Quote: BTLWI
2:20 PM. The machine does an animation indicating we've won either the Minor or the Major. You don't know for about 7 seconds until the animation stops so the whole time we cheer, "Major Major!".
.
7 seconds? Always seems more like an eternity. Retriggering minor jackpots aren't that bad but they can often retrigger bad language.
Nice play, what was the meter move?
For example $9950 is worth over $5K....
Lets see who can guess what the meter move is. assuming his timeline is accurate the only piece missing is how many spins per hour they got out. I'm not sure if they sweat bonus rounds or flash through them. IIRC them machines are super fast.Quote: GWAEOn a 9-10k I would think it would need to be closer to 9950 before it is a play. Of course i don't know whay the meter move is.
Quote: RogerKint7 seconds? Always seems more like an eternity. Retriggering minor jackpots aren't that bad but they can often retrigger bad language.
I'll try to time the animation next time we get on one. I actually think the minor animation is maybe 1-2 seconds faster than the major but that's simply speculation right now.
I'm always happy when a minor hits, especially when it's under $400. That's just more money in our pocket and more of the 1.07% the minor (on these particular $1 machines) takes out of coin-in that we get to actualize.
And yes, in my 2nd picture of the thread we got on at $1937 and it took us to $1997 resulting in an $800 loss. We even had a $2K hand pay during a bonus round. But there's zero reason to expect a machine to take you all the way to the top.
Quote: GWAEOn a 9-10k I would think it would need to be closer to 9950 before it is a play. Of course i don't know whay the meter move is.
It would not typically need to be that high, in fact, on a $4.00/penny meter, you would have 10k locked up on Maximum Theoretical Coin-In of 20k, so it would be all but impossible for that NOT to be a good play.
Quote: BTLWIBut there's zero reason to expect a machine to take you all the way to the top.
That's certainly true, but do you either:
A.) Believe in the halfway point theory
OR
B.) Know that the next jackpot amount is randomly selected from the possible Range upon Reset, and as a result, the halfway point theory is not only a theory but is absolutely based in fact for that particular unit?
Quote: Mission146That's certainly true, but do you either:
A.) Believe in the halfway point theory
OR
B.) Know that the next jackpot amount is randomly selected from the possible Range upon Reset, and as a result, the halfway point theory is not only a theory but is absolutely based in fact for that particular unit?
A and believe in B but cannot prove it to be factual. At first I thought they were somehow weighted but what Axel said in another thread convinced me. If they were weighted we'd see a lot more of them at high points.
Theres six of these and they go off before $9500 soooo often.
I can share some numbers with you now:
Nevermind ;-)
Quote: BTLWIA and believe in B but cannot prove it to be factual. At first I thought they were somehow weighted but what Axel said in another thread convinced me. If they were weighted we'd see a lot more of them at high points.
Theres six of these and they go off before $9500 soooo often.
Say you set your figures on something like it hitting by 9750. Doesn't it just take 1 time going to the top to wipe out all winnings plus some?
I don't spend a lot of time on must hits but when I do I always calculate it based on going to the top. Last thing I want to do is lose 2k going after 500
Quote: GWAESay you set your figures on something like it hitting by 9750. Doesn't it just take 1 time going to the top to wipe out all winnings plus some?
I don't spend a lot of time on must hits but when I do I always calculate it based on going to the top. Last thing I want to do is lose 2k going after 500
It matters what percentage profit you're expecting. I won't do any at breakeven unless it's 3*/5* points day or a promo makes points extra valuable. For these Majors with a ton of coin in I like 103% payback. For smaller prizes I actually like closer to 110%.
Minors are tricky. On these machines the average coin in when we get on a $485 Minor is .8% of the average coin in to hit the Major. That's actually worth $76 but you'd have to do ~125 Minors before you could expect to hit a random Major. We don't include the $76 in profit calcs but technically it is there. Two weeks ago my buddy was doing a $181 (too early) Minor that I declined to split (needs to be $185) and the $1000-2000 major drops for him at $1050 while I'm sweating him......
If you calculate it on going to the top you won't get many plays. People like BTLWI will jump on it and snap up all the value before you ever have a chance.Quote: GWAESay you set your figures on something like it hitting by 9750. Doesn't it just take 1 time going to the top to wipe out all winnings plus some?
I don't spend a lot of time on must hits but when I do I always calculate it based on going to the top. Last thing I want to do is lose 2k going after 500
I'm not sure how many they find or how well they are doing overall, but It sounds as if they know what they are doing and have been making strong plays.
Good Job keep it up.
My question is.... Once the casinos and game makers realize just how strong they can be for advantage players and just how they are targeting them, giving them a play by play, will they adjust them or find a way to keep the money in the ploppies pockets? I say... out of sight out of mind. Not to mention you may create competition if the right person sees this and a lightbulb goes off.
This is why we dont have good VP progressives any more.
If I ran a casino I would pull them out or adjust them in order to keep that money in the pockets of my ploppies. Anyone who hit something like this in my casino would automatically get some RFB enticing them to stay and play longer or on their next trip (point or no points) if they did not show good play I would adjust the comps accordingly.
I can only imagine the guy who was there for hours isn't to happy and may avoid playing something like this next time, and now he can't spend that 10k in the casino on some other -EV Game.
Yes, that's why I declined. And then he hit a $1000 line hit 2 minutes later, but that wouldn't have happened if I was in because it would have been my turn to spin by then.
I go completely by what is expected to happen. If we did $181 machines 2000 times in a row our expectation is to be completely broke regardless of the occasional lucky $2050 win. Once I put it in those terms, he seemed to get why gambling early on machines is stupid.
But he's up a stupid amount on the 4 I've declined because of huge wins like above or they go off way before expected in like 10-20 spins....kind of laughable.
Quote: AxelWolfI can only imagine the guy who was there for hours isn't to happy and may avoid playing something like this next time, and now he can't spend that 10k in the casino on some other -EV Game.
That guy hit a $.25 denom $4500 ($4000-5000) on Tuesday. He's just a well off (can tell by his clothes) gambler. These $1 ones go off early all the time too. The people who play them a lot hit them at $9100, $9250, etc...we even saw a $9006 once - it's all the same regulars all the time. It's the people who get on at $9600 and lose $3000 and give up that are really getting crushed.
I'd estimate they only get to breakeven numbers at a 10:1 or even 15:1 ratio. That is - they go off under $9600 10-15 times for every 1 time we see one over $9750+ (still -EV @ that number).
And we still have risk. If we're expecting $50,000 average coin in at the halfway point and it runs all the way up AND the short term game payback is only 75% instead of 85% that would be a $15K loss instead of a $2400+ expected profit. Both things can and most likely will happen eventually. They've both happened on the smaller prizes for sure.
We lose all the time on the $100-200 machines at profitable numbers. We've gotten wrecked for $800+ on a $187 that went to $199.99 with no bonuses. We even had a $260 line win to ease the pain a little otherwise it would have been -$1100.
Before we came up with what we believe are profitable numbers, there was a machine were watching and waiting for it to get a little bit higher. It was at $9850 and we're holding out for just around $9900.
People have been on it all day and unfortunately when we go and check the machine is locked up at $9879. We check an hour later, still locked. We check 45 minutes later and still locked but a guy is sitting there. I know he does machines and he knows I do and we have a mutual friend (not here). He tells me his partner went to the bank and is coming back with cash by 5 PM. It's like 4:50 so why not wait and see if he doesn't show? We had already asked a slot attendant about the machine and she told us it would be unlocked at 5:05 if the guy didn't return.
While we're waiting the guy on the machine offers me half of his action - 25%. My buddy is with me so we don't hesitate to get in. He then hits us with a shocker, "You know he does max bet ($25) spins, right?" "Uh, no. If we can't talk him out of it, we don't want in.".
He shows up at 4:58 PM and we talk. His main point was he didn't want to be there all night, but you can fast spin these so there's no reason to trade volatility for time. We compromise on $15/spin to start.
By 5:20 PM we have all the logistics worked out and the machine is unlocked by the slot attendant. My buddy and I are splitting the 25% so 12.5% each.
Here's our timeline at $15/spin
-$800 - 5:24 PM
-$800 - 5:34 PM
-$800 - 5:41 PM
-$800 - 5:50 PM
-$800 - 5:53 PM
Well the meter sure is moving fast but our profit is evaporating just as quick. We see people get hand pays at $5/spin all the time on these and we can't even get a measly $500 bonus at $15/spin. It's actually somewhat comical to watch $800 evaporate through a slot machine in 3 minutes flat. And then another $800 in just two minutes after that.
We decide to go down to $10 and $5 a spin. Here's that timeline
-$800 - 5:55 PM
-$800 - 6:09 PM
-$800 - 6:13 PM
-$800 - 6:16 PM
-$800 - 6:22 PM
Even at lowered bet amounts were getting smoked. The machine is almost freerolling us on a loss, we're down $8000 in an hour. However the $800 at 6:22 PM is actually lasting a lot longer, it lasts a full 20 minutes.
-$800 - 6:42 PM
Now we're $8800 in and we're still 6500 movements from the top. 6500 * cost per move = yikes. We have plenty of cash but could be looking at a decent size loss at this point. But thankfully this $800 is producing $500-900 bonus rounds which allow us to churn through high amounts of coin in.
Finally at 7:20 PM
https://imgur.com/HFu36wI
My 12.5% share
-$1100 in
+$1243.50 out
We also have $598 in tickets plus the credits still in for an additional +$92. Our machines produce tickets if the win amount would result in credits over $1200 so some of those last bonuses spit out tickets.
Fun times.
The big thing for me and has always been is that I play on my own money so when I win I don't have to chop anything but when I lose I lose the max :)
Quote: monet0412Some of it is information handed down over the years. Some of it is trial and error. Some of it is sheer volume, meaning after I have ran 100k plus through a game I pretty much know where I'm at. After 1 mil coin in I really know where I'm at for sure. Some of it is chasing promos and progressives around. Some of it is just falling into it. I sorta went over here to play some Video Poker because I thought that a promo was running and come to find out it wasn't on this day but they had another promo which made things playable. The problem with slot plays, for me at least, is that you can get stuck large amounts of money very fast. You can be way upside down with no real chance of breaking even until you get on another machine around the same starting point. So it is more of a long run type of play. Another thing is that you need to be able to stomach the losing. I have been on positive plays for a week before hitting the progressive and that isn't fun if you don't have someone to help you lock up the machine before someone else swoops in on your action. However that really doesn't matter in the long run because your always playing certain machines at certain numbers. In the end I seem to get the money. I'd say 90% of my time is spent on Video Poker plays and I have a route that I check for progressives and other reel plays while I am moving from video poker to video poker. I don't know if I answered your question but I tried. It has been a long day and it is time for bed but I would say that I only know a small amount of information and other shaper players in the city get on much better stuff all the time.
The big thing for me and has always been is that I play on my own money so when I win I don't have to chop anything but when I lose I lose the max :)
You definitely did answer my question, thank you.
https://imgur.com/3KXvNzv
I want an Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifle! Of course a 2180 Dollar Jackpot will do just fine!
These Two Pictures go together... the one was during the bonus round and the other was when the machine locked up with no sound at all which was fine by me!
Quote: WizardofnothingAnd all this time I though you were an ap jk lol
Here is another jackpot I hit a few days ago... I'm waiting for the next wisecrack :) !!
Not that anyone cares but I was stuck about 2700 before hitting it and that was over a few weeks of playing.
Interesting note that I hit the lower jackpot 4 times but never hit anything higher than mixed bars with the double sign.
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This place has a game that is at 53k that should be a play but they had the same machine a few doors down that was at 98k and I know it had to be a positive at that number. The information from the floor is that they dumped some large jackpot money into them awhile back. The jackpot starts at 10k for that game. My problem was that I didn't have anyone to play the 888 lock up game with me and I took a few shots at it but missed. I walked in the door a few days ago and it was gone. I think the one at 53k is playable but not the same as shooting for almost double that.
EDIT: One question I do have... Does a certain class of slot machine guarantee random results, and even if it did, who's to say they don't pad the results?
Example - Let's say I map a slot machine and it has the following results:
0000
0001
0010
0011
0100
0101
0110
0111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111
So let's say "1111" is the jackpot on the machine. To my knowledge, when you hit the button the RNG inside the machine picks a "RANDOM" result from the result set above. However, what's to stop them from putting in another hundred "0000" combinations to pick from to weight it down? Then the odds of the jackpot would go from 1/16 to 1/116, whilst they could still claim it's "randomly" selecting the result from the possible results? How could you ever know the true odds of hitting the jackpot, even with the reels mapped?
Quote: RomesNice hit. I've been looking in to deconstructing these machines, but it's a tedious process and in the midst of all the other AP'ing plus full time job it just is a slow grind of a process =P. I have a good idea what I need to know, it just takes some time and crunching some numbers =).
EDIT: One question I do have... Does a certain class of slot machine guarantee random results, and even if it did, who's to say they don't pad the results?
Example - Let's say I map a slot machine and it has the following results:
0000
0001
0010
0011
0100
0101
0110
0111
1000
1001
1010
1011
1100
1101
1110
1111
So let's say "1111" is the jackpot on the machine. To my knowledge, when you hit the button the RNG inside the machine picks a "RANDOM" result from the result set above. However, what's to stop them from putting in another hundred "0000" combinations to pick from to weight it down? Then the odds of the jackpot would go from 1/16 to 1/116, whilst they could still claim it's "randomly" selecting the result from the possible results? How could you ever know the true odds of hitting the jackpot, even with the reels mapped?
The random number generator is set my reel strip, not in aggregate as you imply above. As for padding the wheel, speaking for Nevada, the casino wouldn't have the ability to do that, it would have to be the manufacturer. For the manufacturer to get approval to put the slot machine in casinos, it has to provide the mathematical analysis to the Nevada Gaming Commission and it must be approved.
Any casino or manufacturer using or creating a non-approved program would likely be fined or lose their license. I doubt it would be worth it.
Quote: RomesNice hit. I've been looking in to deconstructing these machines, but it's a tedious process and in the midst of all the other AP'ing plus full time job it just is a slow grind of a process =P. I have a good idea what I need to know, it just takes some time and crunching some numbers =).
EDIT: One question I do have... Does a certain class of slot machine guarantee random results, and even if it did, who's to say they don't pad the results?
So let's say "1111" is the jackpot on the machine. To my knowledge, when you hit the button the RNG inside the machine picks a "RANDOM" result from the result set above. However, what's to stop them from putting in another hundred "0000" combinations to pick from to weight it down? Then the odds of the jackpot would go from 1/16 to 1/116, whilst they could still claim it's "randomly" selecting the result from the possible results? How could you ever know the true odds of hitting the jackpot, even with the reels mapped?
Thanks for the interest. I don't think I can help you. I am not even close to your level of play. I only have a few things going for me. I have been in town for a long time. I know what machines are playable when the jackpot gets past a certain number. I know that in one casino the same game will have a different jackpot number and the same game in another casino will never be playable. I know this from some inside information. I know this from players giving me information. However I know this because I have put millions of spins on these games and know exactly how much per hour I will lose. I also know from experience what the average time it takes to spin off a jackpot on certain machines so it is pretty simple for me to figure out if I will come out ahead in due time. This certain casino and jackpot was of little worry to me. In some places I will lock down the machine until I spin off the jackpot but over here these machines barely get play. That doesn't even matter anyway. I just want the jackpot numbers to be a certain number every time I decide to play. I can't back anything up with math so I know your not going to like that but I am sure someone will help you get the answers you desire.
So you're saying they don't "program in" those 16 cases. Instead they must program in the symbols, and thus the RNG that selects from there wouldn't be able to add scenarios that aren't available via the natural symbols/result set (i.e. 16 results above). From a programmers perspective, it would just be so easy to add literally a couple lines of code that buffers lower amounts in more often. Then again these machines should fail testing at that point. Thanks for the info, was just curious.Quote: rsactuaryThe random number generator is set my reel strip, not in aggregate as you imply above...
Quote: monet0412Here is another jackpot I hit a few days ago... I'm waiting for the next wisecrack :) !!
Not that anyone cares but I was stuck about 2700 before hitting it and that was over a few weeks of playing.
Interesting note that I hit the lower jackpot 4 times but never hit anything higher than mixed bars with the double sign.
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This place has a game that is at 53k that should be a play but they had the same machine a few doors down that was at 98k and I know it had to be a positive at that number. The information from the floor is that they dumped some large jackpot money into them awhile back. The jackpot starts at 10k for that game. My problem was that I didn't have anyone to play the 888 lock up game with me and I took a few shots at it but missed. I walked in the door a few days ago and it was gone. I think the one at 53k is playable but not the same as shooting for almost double that.
This game was the first machine I ever hit the top award on, although it was 25¢. Hit it on the fifth spin for $1509. Girlfriend at the time was pissed because I had not planned on playing and on the third spin it came "blazing 7, blazing 7, double right under payline as she laughed at me. :-D
Quote: RomesSo you're saying they don't "program in" those 16 cases. Instead they must program in the symbols, and thus the RNG that selects from there wouldn't be able to add scenarios that aren't available via the natural symbols/result set (i.e. 16 results above). From a programmers perspective, it would just be so easy to add literally a couple lines of code that buffers lower amounts in more often. Then again these machines should fail testing at that point. Thanks for the info, was just curious.
Yes.. to say it another way, as I thought about it...
Your initial thought would have to have the RNG determine a payout, and then determine reel stops that result in that payout. While I believe the RNG determines the reel stop, and then calculates the payout based on the reel stops selected.
If you think about the video slots... to use the first method would be a logistical (and mathematical) nightmare.
Quote: rsactuary
If you think about the video slots... to use the first method would be a logistical (and mathematical) nightmare.
To me the video poker in the class 2 and lottery markets is the strangest scenario. The server picks a win amount and send it to the machine. The machine then has to deal out cards that will result in that win amount. Of course when players hold or discard certain cards it screws up the plan and the either the match card or genie appear to make up the difference. About 15 years ago I built an algorithm for a major machine manufacturer to use in New York to approximate the frequencies and hand results so they were very similar to traditional class 3 games.
Quote: RomesSo you're saying they don't "program in" those 16 cases. Instead they must program in the symbols, and thus the RNG that selects from there wouldn't be able to add scenarios that aren't available via the natural symbols/result set (i.e. 16 results above). From a programmers perspective, it would just be so easy to add literally a couple lines of code that buffers lower amounts in more often. Then again these machines should fail testing at that point. Thanks for the info, was just curious.
Here's how I was told it's done (in general). I could easily be wrong or out-of-date.
1. A paytable is developed that indicates all symbols that will win and their payoff odds. This would include a line for all non-winning spins which offsets wins and determines the aggregate return to player percentage. A paytable could have 1 to dozens of winning combinations, but it's a finite amount.
2. An RNG is programmed to provide a random number between 0 and 1, to however many places necessary to provide the correct proportions needed to accurately reflect the desired paytable. For example, .1 would provide 10 different choices (including 1), .01 would provide 100, etc. I think they take this to 7-8 digits in simpler machines.
3. Individual numbers and/or ranges of numbers are mapped to results in proportions that reflect the desired paytable. (Simplified:single line, no bonus) Say you have 10000 possible results cycling (.0001 thru 1.0000), and the instant a player hits the spin button, one of those is selected.
Some ways of translating those numbers to results:
You want your player to get a 1 for 1 payout 10% of the time. So you program that any RNG result starting with .2xxx will result in a 1 for 1 win. That will map to the display to show any result that gives that win. If there's more than one symbol that gives that payout, there's a second random number selected that will pick the display you see, each on a subroutine.
You want your player to get a 3 for 1 payout 3% of the time. You program (before the game is in use) a list of 300 numbers that, when RNG selected, will result in a display matching the paytable symbol(s) winning 3 for 1. The subroutine would store the list of preselected numbers.
You want your top award to hit 1 in 10000 times. You assign a single number (1.0000) that, when generated by the RNG, will map to the jackpot subroutine being displayed.
It'd be a series of if...then statements checking for conditions that match the RNG number to a result. The "then" would point to a "goto" which would direct the graphic display, audio cues, payout meter, etc. "If x =false" would "else" to the next if...then statement. When all the if...then's = false, the last "else" would likely go to a non-winning display subroutine.
Hope that made sense and answered the question I think you're asking. The results map in percentages that reflect the paytable values and desired frequency or "hit rate" of each to reach a total RTP.
I found this play a few weeks ago at a place I play. The Progressive starts at 1600 and when I cruised by I noticed it was over 4k. If you know anything about this game you know the meter is .5% and it is a 2 coin game and usually doesn't get past 1700 or 1800. I didn't put many hours on it... about 5 to 6 hours total. My wife actually hit it in about 30 mins because we had to go over there before midnight to pick up something. So while we were there and she didn't have to work the next day I put her on this game to get Reel Play on her account which is always a good thing if you know what your doing no matter what these Real Pros tell you.
After talking to some people over there I found out they added cash to the jackpot as usual when they closed another machine. I guess they did that to a few others. I know of 2 games over there now way over the needed amount to be positive but it could take you months of spinning before it pays off. I guess there was some other Reel Game over there that starts at 20k or 25k and they added enough money to put it up to 75k... I missed that one but the story is that two guys were hammering it and eventually hit it making a nice score. Depressing that I didn't notice that because as some of you know the best way to AP sometimes is to Monkey See Monkey Do.
When she hit the Jackpot and it started to play the Jackpot Song I was impressed. It was a song that I have listened to all my life and I still find it catchy. I put this information up here because I think you would be hard pressed to find this game and perhaps this is the last machine in town.
Does anyone know the Jackpot Song it plays when you line up all the Double Monets?
Quote: pingpangpong
Does anyone know the Jackpot Song it plays when you line up all the Double Monets?
"Crazy" by Gnarls Barkley?
Quote: RogerKint"Crazy" by Gnarls Barkley?
I'm getting old I had to look up who that was. Too recent way too recent. I'm not so sure you were serious. Perhaps a knock or inside joke. Crazy by Patsy Cline would be closer to the era.
Honestly though APing in general and running all over town to pick up FP and comps and maintain levels can make you goofy or crazy at times. Especially if you do it mostly alone it can spin out of control and drive you mad. It also can become addictive and can get silly when one month they give you 600 a week and the next month they drop you to 50 a week. It's a crazy game for sure. Even Doyle Brunson always says in his interviews that you have to have a screw loose to gamble at higher levels or gamble for a living in general. I don't recommend this type of way to earn a living for anyone but I do have some I say some solid advice for those who are serious and wish to pursue it.
Edit: Ok so I checked out the song and video on Youtube. I have heard that song. I admit it is better than most recent modern songs but it certainly has to be some sort of an inside joke that your posting here because I am pretty sure you and I know that that song would never be on an old reel machine like this one. I also admit the Ink Blot Test Video was good enough for what the guy is singing about. I'd prefer to hear that song over most of the songs the Palms has recently played in the last 4 months or so. I swear they have 12 songs on repeat and I really never heard them anywhere else. They must be some Disco or Club Music these days... I really am getting old.
