Question About Cheating

Say someone was able to sneak loaded dice into a Craps game, without anyone knowing, and racked up a lot of money. In doing so, that person tipped big to the dealers. If that person got caught, would the tips the dealers made be forfeit, like the winnings of the cheater?

If the dealers were clearly innocent, no.
But this would be hard for the dealers to explain, as they protect the game. If loaded dice appeared in a crap game, and this was revealed, the dealers would probably be assumed to be in collusion with such an event.

Don't worry about getting caught you can roll 18 Yo's in a row and they won't even notice.

Those dealers would have a LOT of explaining to do, not the least of which would be to their prospective new employer when asked why they were fired.

Quote: AxelWolf

Don't worry about getting caught you can roll 18 Yo's in a row and they won't even notice.

Remember, nobody touched the Yo, they had no reason to worry about dealer collusion.

Nevermind

Even A kid will answer YES, and the kid is right.

And The dealers will stay in a jail.

Quote: Mission146

Remember, nobody touched the Yo, they had no reason to worry about dealer collusion.

That shouldn't matter.

If I was working at a dice table and seen 7++ yo's in a row, I would absolutely take the dice off the table, let alone 18 yo's . I wouldn't just slap them around with the stick and then shrug my shoulders.

Just because no one was betting the yo is immaterial. Someone prior could've snuck in some loaded dice hoping to switch them in and out, but for some reason he got spooked so he abandon the dice. Perhaps his partner in crime didn't show up as expected and the switch man assumed the worst and ran out the door immediately not wanting to get caught with the evidence.

For all we know the dealer was in on it, that would explain the inadequate dice inspection. There's ABSOLUTELY NO WAY a dealer wouldn't be like WTF after just 7 in a row.

I would be looking for magnets or some explanation.

Seriously no one was thinking, "maybe I should bet the yo?"

Obviously that's all very far fetched because there never was 18 yo's in a row, there was probably 3 at most and it somehow got rounded up to 18.

I would be surprised if there weren't more than three. I haven't played as much Craps as most of the people on here, and I have personally rolled three Midnights in a row, considerably less likely than three Yo's in a row.

Once about 23 years ago I had just played the don't for $100 at Four Queens. Shooter rolls a 4. I'm salivating. I lay $200 in odds and ask my friend for another $100. I can't remember why I just didn't pull more green from my pocket instead of asking my friend for the $100. I guess he had ready chips. Two rolls later the shooter hits his four. So we move along to The Fitz. I'm killing some time playing pass line for $5 and roll 7,7,7,11,7. Wow, I just won $25 in five rolls!

I hope no one minds my interjecting this story here in a crazy dice thread.

This just happened at my place a few days ago. Dealer thought a player had a Straight Flush in a poker varnival game. Paid the player $750. The player than tipped $100, most likely because he knew he didn't deserve the money. 7 minutes later Surveillance calls and tells Supervisor about mistake. We explain and ask player for $650 back and he agrees. Then at the end of the night, with explanation, we remove $100 from the pooled tips and return it to the table tray.

I cannot have even the slightest thought of improper action by my Staff. Games, rules and decisions have to be 100% above reproach. The dealer did not intend to make this mistake, but we can't even have dealers or players think this was a possibilty.


ZCore13

Quote: Mission146

I would be surprised if there weren't more than three. I haven't played as much Craps as most of the people on here, and I have personally rolled three Midnights in a row, considerably less likely than three Yo's in a row.

I agree. Anecdotally, I have only played a few times for a total of maybe ten hours, and I've rolled three straight yos.

A trial consisting of three rolls will be three yos with probability 1/5832. Keep in mind that if we're calculating the chance of seeing this happen when we're playing, we don't actually need three rolls per trial since if we roll a non-11, we start a new trial with the very next roll, so the average trial length is pretty close to 1. Within a given session, you're going to have a lot of trials.

So if you play a few hundred rolls, it's a long shot, but you do have a realistic chance of seeing three straight. It's unlikely, but not THAT unlikely. I just calculated that the probability of seeing three yos at least once in 500 trials is a little more than 8%. For 3000 trials, it's over 40%. For 9000 trials, it's over 78%.

Therefore, I'd guess most long-time craps players have seen three straight yos.

Eighteen straight, however, is in another stratosphere. It's on the order of 10^-22, about 1 in 39,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. I don't believe it has ever happened. I also agree with Axel that the dice would likely get changed well before eighteen straight.

For my earlier 500, 3000, 9000 trials numbers, the chance of seeing three straight midnights at some point is about 1%, 6%, and 17% respectively.

Quote: Mission146

I would be surprised if there weren't more than three. I haven't played as much Craps as most of the people on here, and I have personally rolled three Midnights in a row, considerably less likely than three Yo's in a row.

My guess on the 18 yo's is that there were probably quite a few, but still short of 10, while there were other rolls of other numbers in between - this became forgotten in the re-telling, and the number of yo's probably grew too.

It's even as likely as not that Mission's memory almost immediately forgot a 3-craps or yo or whatever that inserted itself into the 3 in a row.

It was easy for me to remember because I always bet the, 'Any Craps,' on the CO for a buck, even though I am not supposed to, and I double the Any Crap bet when one of them hits. In this particular instance, I had rolled an Acey-Deucey followed by three consecutive Midnights. It's worth a buck to me on a negative expectation game, anyway, makes it more fun. I don't play much and I HATE losing $5 on the CO, EVER, even though it makes even less sense to lose $1 on 32/36 CO rolls...not counting the 7 and Yo winners, still lose the, 'Any Craps.'

Quote: Mission146

It was easy for me to remember because I always bet the, 'Any Craps,' on the CO for a buck, even though I am not supposed to, and I double the Any Crap bet when one of them hits. In this particular instance, I had rolled an Acey-Deucey followed by three consecutive Midnights. It's worth a buck to me on a negative expectation game, anyway, makes it more fun. I don't play much and I HATE losing $5 on the CO, EVER, even though it makes even less sense to lose $1 on 32/36 CO rolls...not counting the 7 and Yo winners, still lose the, 'Any Craps.'

now, if you had said you parlayed the bets, that would ended any doubt. As it stands, the chances of 3 midnights in a row would have been 1 in 46656. If we can say there is only one chance in 10,000 your memory could be failing you ... well, see prediction LOL

Quote: Zcore13

This just happened at my place a few days ago. Dealer thought a player had a Straight Flush in a poker varnival game. Paid the player $750. The player than tipped $100, most likely because he knew he didn't deserve the money. 7 minutes later Surveillance calls and tells Supervisor about mistake. We explain and ask player for $650 back and he agrees. Then at the end of the night, with explanation, we remove $100 from the pooled tips and return it to the table tray.

I cannot have even the slightest thought of improper action by my Staff. Games, rules and decisions have to be 100% above reproach. The dealer did not intend to make this mistake, but we can't even have dealers or players think this was a possibilty.


ZCore13

Shouldn't the $750 pay off have been verified by a pit boss? Or did the PB get it wrong too?

Quote: AcesAndEights

Shouldn't the $750 pay off have been verified by a pit boss? Or did the PB get it wrong too?

Both the Dealer and the Supervisor blew it. Both now understand the seriousness of such a mistake.


ZCore13

Quote: Paigowdan

If the dealers were clearly innocent, no.
But this would be hard for the dealers to explain, as they protect the game. If loaded dice appeared in a crap game, and this was revealed, the dealers would probably be assumed to be in collusion with such an event.

While I understand why there might be suspicion of collusion, isn't it possible that a skilled dice cheat / mechanic, operating alone, could substitute loaded dice, take a few winning rolls, then substitute the house dice back in, with no one the wiser?

If the loaded dice are still out there and he makes a point, just say "same dice."

The cheater would be unmasked if one or both of the dice bounce off the table, as the box would check the dice numbers as a matter of course before returning them to the game.

Quote: Zcore13

Both the Dealer and the Supervisor blew it. Both now understand the seriousness of such a mistake.


ZCore13

Can I ask how they screwed this up? Did they pay a QKA23 "wraparound" SF?

Quote: AcesAndEights

Shouldn't the $750 pay off have been verified by a pit boss? Or did the PB get it wrong too?

I've had a dealer and a PC blow a buy in and give me an extra $100.

Quote: sabre

Can I ask how they screwed this up? Did they pay a QKA23 "wraparound" SF?

Just for fun, I'm guessing it was a PaiGowPoker SF, using the joker, and it didn't stretch properly, like 2 gaps either separate or together in the middle, but it looked really good at first glance. Like, 2-4-5-J-7 or something.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've had a dealer and a PC blow a buy in and give me an extra $100.

I can think of some creative editing on that one.

Quote: MrV

While I understand why there might be suspicion of collusion, isn't it possible that a skilled dice cheat / mechanic, operating alone, could substitute loaded dice, take a few winning rolls, then substitute the house dice back in, with no one the wiser?

If the loaded dice are still out there and he makes a point, just say "same dice."

The cheater would be unmasked if one or both of the dice bounce off the table, as the box would check the dice numbers as a matter of course before returning them to the game.

I see no reason someone couldn't counterfeit dice with the same numbers.

It's probably happening.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Just for fun, I'm guessing it was a PaiGowPoker SF, using the joker, and it didn't stretch properly, like 2 gaps either separate or together in the middle, but it looked really good at first glance. Like, 2-4-5-J-7 or something.

Strike out! :)

It was a Texas Holdem table games. Player had the 8 and 10 of diamonds. The board was 3 of hearts, 7 of clubs, 9, 10 and J of diamonds (not in that order). Should have just been a flush, not a straight flush. Paid him $750 for his bonus bet and another $100 for his progressive $1 bet. He tipped $100. When it was all said and done, the Supervisor got $650 back from him, $100 back from the tip box and let him keep the $100 progressive win. I would have taken the $100 back as well and comped him a dinner for 2 at the restaurant, but I support my Supervisors decisions.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Strike out! :)

It was a Texas Holdem table games. Player had the 8 and 10 of diamonds. The board was 3 of hearts, 7 of clubs, 9, 10 and J of diamonds (not in that order). Should have just been a flush, not a straight flush. Paid him $750 for his bonus bet and another $100 for his progressive $1 bet. He tipped $100. When it was all said and done, the Supervisor got $650 back from him, $100 back from the tip box and let him keep the $100 progressive win. I would have taken the $100 back as well and comped him a dinner for 2 at the restaurant, but I support my Supervisors decisions.


ZCore13

That there is one reallllll interesting deck you're dealing.

Player had the 8 and 10 of diamonds.

The board was ..., 9, 10 and J of diamonds ...

Quote: Zcore13

Strike out! :)

It was a Texas Holdem table games. Player had the 8 and 10 of diamonds. The board was 3 of hearts, 7 of clubs, 9, 10 and J of diamonds (not in that order). Should have just been a flush, not a straight flush. Paid him $750 for his bonus bet and another $100 for his progressive $1 bet. He tipped $100. When it was all said and done, the Supervisor got $650 back from him, $100 back from the tip box and let him keep the $100 progressive win. I would have taken the $100 back as well and comped him a dinner for 2 at the restaurant, but I support my Supervisors decisions.


ZCore13

No wonder the dealer was was confused.

You guys are too focused on that new poker side beat.

meanwhile back at the Texas Holdem table games......

Upper management should get a talking to not the dealers.

Quote: starpower

Even A kid will answer YES, and the kid is right.

And The dealers will stay in a jail.

Buzz, is that you?

Quote: beachbumbabs

That there is one reallllll interesting deck you're dealing.

Player had the 8 and 10 of diamonds.

The board was ..., 9, 10 and J of diamonds ...

6 deck Holdem game. 5 of a kind suited is the top hand. Players get dealt 4 cards and choose which 2 they want to use.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

6 deck Holdem game. 5 of a kind suited is the top hand. Players get dealt 4 cards and choose which 2 they want to use.

ZCore13

Texas Shootout?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Texas Shootout?

Yes. My players love it.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Yes. My players love it.


ZCore13

It's popular in Missouri.

Quote: EvenBob

Buzz, is that you?

Lets hope not this guy was kinda rude with most of his posts. Probably not the best idea to burn bridges or agitate people when you're trying to get a table game out.

Quote: Zcore13

6 deck Holdem game. 5 of a kind suited is the top hand. Players get dealt 4 cards and choose which 2 they want to use.

ZCore13

Ooohh.. I would like that a lot. Kind of my fat/salt/sweet taste point. I like UTH. I like Omaha. and I like 7 card bonus sidebets. Put a bug joker in there and I'm swooning...

https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-shootout/

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

https://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-shootout/

Yeah, I had gone to look it up and post it, and you beat me to it. Thanks! :)

Where is this game being played besides Zcore's place (I'm a couple thousand miles from him)? Somebody said Missouri?

Can't say I'm fond of the HE or EOR Mike shows, with the dealer taking ties, but I do like the split option where you can add a second good hand, and that you don't have to increase your ante to play.

Bonus table 2 10+%HE? Yikes, Zcore (assuming that's the one you're playing with the 75:1 SF)!

I'm guessing I must've walked past this game somewhere, but I don't recall ever seeing it offered.

Yeah, a couple places in MO have it. I know Ameristar KC for sure. Can't remember the others.

Quote: AxelWolf

I see no reason someone couldn't counterfeit dice with the same numbers.

It's probably happening.

It's actually almost certainly NOT happening. The reasons why aren't important. But it certainly could in theory. A hot stamp machine will run you about $500 online. Getting the right fonts for the numbers is child's play - they're simply copied off of identical dice purchased in the gift shop and a vector graphic is created in Illustrator or Photoshop. Send that to any of a dozen companies that make hot-stamp numbers for a variety of perfectly legitimate uses and $50 later you have a set of numbers.

Have a buddy play craps for a bit on a given table and figure out the numbering used for that shift/day. Up in your hotel room it'll take you about 20 minutes to heat up the machine and stamp your gaffs. Now you're ready for action.

The exact same process is used to duplicate the casino logo. Giftshop - scanner - vector graphic - Chinese companies that'll make you a stamp without asking any questions about what you intend to do with it. Run you about $30 bucks. I have a current strip casino logo hot stamp in my private collection that I use in my casino security talks and demonstrations, just to prove to the naysaying casino surveillance personnel that it CAN be done if someone is determined to make it happen.

Getting the gaffed dice is another story, but there are still makers willing to do the work. In fact, a massive run of mis-spotted dice came out of a major legitimate factory just a few years ago. The factory management wasn't aware of what was going on but still hundreds of cubes got out - the work is absolutely top notch and would fool anybody in the business as long as they were bouncing down the table - a close examination would reveal the mis-spots of course.

Weight or magnetic work is also still easily obtained if you know where to go. The best work in these areas will fool even experienced dealers and boxmen, as I've proven many times in demonstrations. I hand them a weighted pair and tell them they're legit - then I switch the weighted pair for mis-spots that are easy to pick off. Everyone compliments me on the sleight-of-hand used to execute the switch, but not a single person has ever made the weight - and they were placed directly into their hand! The same can be done with mag dice but that's almost too easy - even I can't spot mag dice without a magnet if the work is put in properly.

PS: I've done all of the above - but for a reality television show that aired in 2005 on what was then Court TV called The Takedown. We went into casinos in both Tahoe and Vegas attempting various classic methods of cheating. We cheated at craps, blackjack (3 different ways) poker, slots, and several other games that I'm forgetting now. 12 episodes in all. In the second episode, our team got mag dice onto a table in S. Lake Tahoe (with the owners' permission and a Gaming Control agent onsite to observe). The table crew, surveillance and uniformed security were not notified ahead of time as to what we were doing. They were just told a documentary on gambling was being filmed and to deal their normal game to us. It didn't go smoothly, but we got the dice on the table using sleight-of-hand switches. Of course I got "arrested" on that play, but that's a story for another day.

Jason

Quote: JasonEngland

PS: I've done all of the above - but for a reality television show that aired in 2005 on what was then Court TV called The Takedown. We went into casinos in both Tahoe and Vegas attempting various classic methods of cheating. We cheated at craps, blackjack (3 different ways) poker, slots, and several other games that I'm forgetting now. 12 episodes in all. In the second episode, our team got mag dice onto a table in S. Lake Tahoe (with the owners' permission and a Gaming Control agent onsite to observe). The table crew, surveillance and uniformed security were not notified ahead of time as to what we were doing. They were just told a documentary on gambling was being filmed and to deal their normal game to us. It didn't go smoothly, but we got the dice on the table using sleight-of-hand switches. Of course I got "arrested" on that play, but that's a story for another day.

Jason

can't find a Jason or Jason England in the credits:

Series Cast
R. Paul Wilson R. Paul Wilson ...
Himself / ... (3 episodes, 2005)
Jennifer Zorbalas Jennifer Zorbalas ...
Herself (2 episodes, 2005)
Lisa Joffrey Lisa Joffrey ...
Herself (1 episode, 2005)
Adam Grace Adam Grace ...
Himself (1 episode)
Linda Pine Linda Pine ...
Herself (1 episode)
Series Produced by
Chris Hammond ... producer (3 episodes, 2005)
John Gengl ... coordinating producer (unknown episodes)
Ed Hersch ... executive producer (unknown episodes)
Mark Hufnail ... executive producer (unknown episodes)
Lynne Kirby ... executive producer (unknown episodes)
Kelly McPherson ... supervising producer (unknown episodes)
Jim Milio ... executive producer (unknown episodes)
Damian Nieman ... co-producer (unknown episodes)
Melissa Jo Peltier ... executive producer (unknown episodes)
David Schnepp ... executive producer (unknown episodes)
Paul Wilson ... co-producer (unknown episodes)
Series Cinematography by
David Hesson ... (3 episodes, 2005)
Jeremy Settles ... (unknown episodes)
Series Film Editing by
Steven Centracchio ... (unknown episodes)
Vicki Hammel ... (unknown episodes)
Series Costume Design by
Bree Cooley ... (unknown episodes)
Series Production Management
Nicholas Bunker ... production manager (unknown episodes)
Beth Anne Jones ... post-production supervisor (unknown episodes)
Series Camera and Electrical Department
Bill Parks ... additional camera operator (1 episode, 2005)
Series Editorial Department
John Cason ... assistant editor (1 episode)
Anouk Erni ... assistant editor (unknown episodes)
Tony Nigro ... assistant editor / on-line editor (unknown episodes)
Nancy Wang ... on-line editor (unknown episodes)
Series Other crew
Karen Byrne ... assistant to executive producer (2 episodes)
Kim Crabb ... field production manager (1 episode)
Emily E. Ellis ... coordinator (unknown episodes)
Heather Mitchell ... production coordinator (unknown episodes)

it would seem to be the right links

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460683/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460683/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm

PS: Vegas magician Jason England can be found mentioned in articles, with a list of his own articles, such as here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwimy_PLuvLMAhXlJZoKHSjlD7YQFggjMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmosmagazine.com%2Fjason-england&usg=AFQjCNEYdV_1Mgn3YB0hGnQwToCX0v_dEw&sig2=bJ0TiFBODEudPYtpFWLhDw&bvm=bv.122676328,d.bGs

Speaking of 18 yo's in a row [earlier in this thread]....Alan recently posted up why he doesn't believe some people's craps stories -- particularly the recent one posted here on WOV, about someone having a 40 minute roll and winning $1,400.

I thought Alan was banned on this site?

Quote: whodat

I thought Alan was banned on this site?

He self suspended himself. He can come back when ever he wants.

Thanks, I stand corrected. I am also on other sites that he is on so that's why I knew about this site.

Interesting. Not sure why I'm not listed in the credits, but then again, neither are about 5 other people that worked on the show and appeared in multiple episodes.
Michael Zurich, Derek Delgaudio, John Lovick and Rob Fair all had speaking roles in one or more episodes that made the final cut. All of them should be in the credits but none of them are. Strange.

I wasn't an "actor" like several of the others listed in the cast - I was actually still active-duty Air Force while we shot those episodes. I wonder if I didn't join some television union that I was supposed to join? I also appeared in the feature film Shade with Sylvester Stallone, Gabriel Byrne, and Stuart Townsend. I was definitely credited in that one (in more than one place in the credits). Had a brief speaking role in it and could've gotten my SAG card out of it, but again I'm not an actor so I never bothered to apply.

Making The Takedown was fun. Got to "feel" like a bad guy for a few days without any of the actual risk or moral issues.

Jason

PS: I can't seem to post a link to the site, but tv.com has a page on The Takedown with a list of cast that includes me and several other of the names I listed above that worked in multiple episodes.

I would have liked to see those shows. Too bad they [apparently] aren't trying to sell DVDs.