video surveillance secondary?

I recently had an interesting situation/conversation come up which I will relate here. It might be interesting for AP's and is worth it if it can be confirmed.

Won't name the casino. I was gambling on another persons players card. Just finished using their free-play. It was a woman's card. (I had her permission - I always use other player's cards only with their permission.)

When I cashed out, the machine said it paid me but no voucher came forth. So, I called a slot tech.

I've had slots not give me vouchers before and the slot tech just hands me the money after opening the machine but this was different. The tech requested both my ID and players card (I had wisely put the female card back into my pocket first). I said I had not been using a players card but what did it matter - I'm usually just handed the money.

The tech informed me this was a different situation because the machine said I was paid. In other words, unlike normal, the slot wasn't saying malfunction and requesting a technician. The casino needed to do a bigger investigation in this circumstance.

This is where you need balls of steel doing what I do.

Anyway, I handed over my ID. No point in not acting casual. If it came to it, my girlfriend had to leave early this morning and wanted me to use her free-play, sorry I shouldn't have done that would be the next line of defense. This person, while not my girlfriend would reply on my behalf if it went that far.

But things took a different turn.

I was escorted to the cashier where a slot director was waiting for me. He informed me it would only take a few minutes for surveillance to do their investigation. I replied, all they have to do is look at the video and they will see me playing, cash out, and not receive the voucher.

This is where the interest in this post comes in.

The slot director replied, "Everyone always thinks we look at the tapes. We almost never do. Only for physical altercations like fights or theft. Most of the time, we are just looking at all the metadata from the machine. How much money went in, the number of spins taken and the cash out. We know everything about your every move this morning. We know if you used your players card, if you took free-play, how much you won, how much you lost. Everything you did is currently being analyzed by surveillance."

Yeah, balls of steel!

Anyway, I just smiled at the interesting info and waited to see just how critically these surveillance folks were checking my metadata.

Within ten minutes, the slot director had received a phone call, smiled at me and instructed the cashier to pay out my money.

Hmm, metadata, indeed.

So, does anyone know if this is an industry-wide standard to not go back to tapes or images in most situations beyond physical crimes, etc.? It explains a lot of why many situations I have been in have simply never materialized in the negative fashion I expected.

With slots .... All the time- tables use video much more ....not going to put more then that on here but will confirm that what you encountered was not unusual from my experience

Quote: darkoz

The slot director replied, "Everyone always thinks we look at the tapes. We almost never do. Only for physical altercations like fights or theft. Most of the time, we are just looking at all the metadata from the machine. How much money went in, the number of spins taken and the cash out. We know everything about your every move this morning. We know if you used your players card, if you took free-play, how much you won, how much you lost. Everything you did is currently being analyzed by surveillance."

Hmm, metadata, indeed.

So, does anyone know if this is an industry-wide standard to not go back to tapes or images in most situations beyond physical crimes, etc.? It explains a lot of why many situations I have been in have simply never materialized in the negative fashion I expected.

As a computer guy, that all sounds about right to me. When they analysed the data, it almost certainly showed up the mismatch between your ID and the players card ID. There was most likely some 'malfunction' or 'paper jam' error message at the tail end of the log for that machine and they paid up based on that, overlooking the gender mismatch either intentionally or not. Maybe, just maybe, the backroom tech didn't get informed of your actual ID or gender by the front office guy and just 'processed' the logs to the machine.

Quote: darkoz

I recently had an interesting situation/conversation come up which I will relate here. It might be interesting for AP's and is worth it if it can be confirmed.

Won't name the casino. I was gambling on another persons players card. Just finished using their free-play. It was a woman's card. (I had her permission - I always use other player's cards only with their permission.)

When I cashed out, the machine said it paid me but no voucher came forth. So, I called a slot tech.

I've had slots not give me vouchers before and the slot tech just hands me the money after opening the machine but this was different. The tech requested both my ID and players card (I had wisely put the female card back into my pocket first). I said I had not been using a players card but what did it matter - I'm usually just handed the money.

The tech informed me this was a different situation because the machine said I was paid. In other words, unlike normal, the slot wasn't saying malfunction and requesting a technician. The casino needed to do a bigger investigation in this circumstance.

This is where you need balls of steel doing what I do.

Anyway, I handed over my ID. No point in not acting casual. If it came to it, my girlfriend had to leave early this morning and wanted me to use her free-play, sorry I shouldn't have done that would be the next line of defense. This person, while not my girlfriend would reply on my behalf if it went that far.

But things took a different turn.

I was escorted to the cashier where a slot director was waiting for me. He informed me it would only take a few minutes for surveillance to do their investigation. I replied, all they have to do is look at the video and they will see me playing, cash out, and not receive the voucher.

This is where the interest in this post comes in.

The slot director replied, "Everyone always thinks we look at the tapes. We almost never do. Only for physical altercations like fights or theft. Most of the time, we are just looking at all the metadata from the machine. How much money went in, the number of spins taken and the cash out. We know everything about your every move this morning. We know if you used your players card, if you took free-play, how much you won, how much you lost. Everything you did is currently being analyzed by surveillance."

Yeah, balls of steel!

Anyway, I just smiled at the interesting info and waited to see just how critically these surveillance folks were checking my metadata.

Within ten minutes, the slot director had received a phone call, smiled at me and instructed the cashier to pay out my money.

Hmm, metadata, indeed.

So, does anyone know if this is an industry-wide standard to not go back to tapes or images in most situations beyond physical crimes, etc.? It explains a lot of why many situations I have been in have simply never materialized in the negative fashion I expected.

Some constitutive criticism, surly it wont be taken well by all.

My hope is new AP's who want longevity for the AP world will think before they act or write.

I'm all for general information and masked details about certain plays.

If the casino is reading this, they, along with other casinos now know they made a mistake. Next time they may make sure to cross reference the ID and the players card and then no pay someone. So this is very educational... for the casinos.

I'm sorry but I don't think this is balls of steel, it seems more like fear of giving up money and unnecessary risking a present or future play by possibly tipping off the casino to what you're and others are doing.

Balls of steel and the smart play would be giving up the money and walking away in the first place. I have seen guys mess up some very good plays over not wanting to give up money(situations exactly like this). Even if it's not a great play it could cause them to change their overall protocol.

There's certain indicators that AP's should know about as to when when a machine has internationally malfunctioned leading to this problem, or if it's just a BV jam or out of paper, making it a situation "where they just hand you the money."

If its unclear, there is a clever way to find out, one that keeps you from having to take it that far.
I'm not going to post it up here for the casinos to conciser, but it's not hard to come up with for next time the situation comes up.

They oftentimes ask for ID when this type of malfunction happens and they make sure you were using your players card, without you're card in they oftentimes refuse to pay.

You make money using other peoples cards. The casinos obviously know it's happening but I'm not sure it's a good Idea to keep bringing it up. Especially if one reads some of your posts where you're boastful about very lucrative plays.

Especially with all this premeditated thinking about how you're going to lie and have someone lie for you

Very well said and 100 percent agree but clearly some do not and thus put it out there - just like the people with baccarat systems - they just will never learn

I understand he didn't realize it would get to that level. At that point it is, what it is. You got to do what you got to do. Once the tech is on his way you can't just walk out and act guilty.

There's some helpful information in what happened.
Had he just told everyone be aware if your machine malfunctions be sure to have your ID as you may need it, or be ready to call your wife when using her card. Then he could've asked if they can and often do look you up and cross reference with the system or surveillance.

IMO it was TMI for his own good.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I have made mistakes and done things I shouldn't have.

We were on a play a while back. The casino was giving out bonuses @ certain times during the hour. Some of us hit two bonuses simultaneously. They said you could only get one per session and wouldn't pay the second one. The rules didn't indicate that. They were willing to pay one. It was only a few hundred dollars. I got stubborn and pushed the issue to far. It lead to us losing the casino.

I should've just let the second bonuses go. Lesson learned.

Quote: darkoz

So, does anyone know if this is an industry-wide standard to not go back to tapes or images in most situations beyond physical crimes, etc.? It explains a lot of why many situations I have been in have simply never materialized in the negative fashion I expected.

Yeah, slots never got much attention from The Eye. The vast majority of calls for slots was stuff that only video could determine, such as "who hit the button that resulted in the j/p" (our joint paid the button pusher, no matter any other detail). Occasionally we'd get one on a coin-in dispute. Someone would say they put money in and didn't get credit; obviously the slot would not have that info, so we'd have to do the video review to see what happened.

In this case, it seems the slot stated it paid (which you said it did) and you denied it. If the slot says one thing and you say another, then yes, it would go to The Eye to see if a slip came out of the thing. It's pretty much the only way to prove it at that point. It's almost a certainty that The Eye didn't give f#$% all about you or your card, it probably never crossed their mind. They were likely too busy trying to find a camera less-sh#$$y enough to see the paper come out or not. I couldn't imagine how tight I'd have to have my Tommy Tough Guy pants on to request your name and verify player's card during said review. More likely I'd just want to bang the review out ASAP so I could resume the inter-office Hold Em tourney we had going on that you interrupted =p

Quote: AxelWolf

Some constitutive criticism, surly it wont be taken well by all.

I'm sorry but I don't think this is balls of steel, it seems more like fear of giving up money and unnecessary risking a present or future play by possibly tipping off the casino to what you're and others are doing.

Balls of steel and the smart play would be giving up the money and walking away in the first place. I have seen guys mess up some very good plays over not wanting to give up money(situations exactly like this). Even if it's not a great play it could cause them to change their overall protocol.

I totally disagree. The last thing you should ever do in a situation like that is walk away. You should always do what a normal person does which is call the slot attendant. It is not being greedy to get every last dime.

Watch the documentary about the team that was counterfeiting slot coins. Those coins were perfect. The casino only realized they were being hit by overage counts - more coins were in the system than minted and they couldn't even figure out the counterfeits or who was doing it.

One day the counterfeiter used a coin which failed to register. Instead of doing what a normal person would, he got up and left. The investigator saw that and said, "that's our guy. A normal person would have called over the slot attendant, not abandoned his credit."

Most of the casinos I am hitting are well aware they are being hit. They try all types of countermeasures on me. And most of the time I work circles right around them so I'm not as frightened of them as you are.

Quote: AxelWolf

They oftentimes ask for ID when this type of malfunction happens and they make sure you were using your players card, without you're card in they oftentimes refuse to pay.

This is patently false Axel. Why would they refuse to pay you without your players card. You telling me anyone who did not sign up for a players card, who just walked in off the street and started gambling will have his payment refused in a situation like this?

Not once, and I mean, not once, have I ever had payment refused due to a malfunction with or without players card.

Quote: Face

In this case, it seems the slot stated it paid (which you said it did) and you denied it. =p

No, the slot stated it paid and I said it did not! Big difference. The machine did malfunction!

If I read your response correctly, you make it sound like I was claiming payment after it had already been made which was not the case.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Very well said and 100 percent agree but clearly some do not and thus put it out there - just like the people with baccarat systems - they just will never learn

Since you mention Baccarat systems I can't even tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Quote: darkoz

So, does anyone know if this is an industry-wide standard to not go back to tapes or images in most situations beyond physical crimes, etc.? It explains a lot of why many situations I have been in have simply never materialized in the negative fashion I expected.

I know that local regulations only actually require live surveillance under specific circumstances, and those are pretty minimal.

They're pretty specific about recorded quality and length of time that the footage is stored.

Beyond that, everywhere I've worked, we maintain 24/7 live surveillance. It's above the requirements, but it's liability protection that just makes sense.

I can't speak for other jurisdictions.

Quote: darkoz

No, the slot stated it paid and I said it did not! Big difference. The machine did malfunction!

If I read your response correctly, you make it sound like I was claiming payment after it had already been made which was not the case.

Nope, just a misunderstanding in how I wrote. You did say the slot said it paid you, and that's what "which you said it did" referred to. I did not mean to imply that you said it actually paid.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, though I can see why there was one. My fault.

Quote: Face

Nope, just a misunderstanding in how I wrote. You did say the slot said it paid you, and that's what "which you said it did" referred to. I did not mean to imply that you said it actually paid.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, though I can see why there was one. My fault.

Yeah, I saw that was a possibility too which is why I asked for some clarification of your meaning.

Quote: Face

Yeah, slots never got much attention from The Eye. The vast majority of calls for slots was stuff that only video could determine, such as "who hit the button that resulted in the j/p" (our joint paid the button pusher, no matter any other detail). Occasionally we'd get one on a coin-in dispute. Someone would say they put money in and didn't get credit; obviously the slot would not have that info, so we'd have to do the video review to see what happened.

In this case, it seems the slot stated it paid (which you said it did) and you denied it. If the slot says one thing and you say another, then yes, it would go to The Eye to see if a slip came out of the thing. It's pretty much the only way to prove it at that point. It's almost a certainty that The Eye didn't give f#$% all about you or your card, it probably never crossed their mind. They were likely too busy trying to find a camera less-sh#$$y enough to see the paper come out or not. I couldn't imagine how tight I'd have to have my Tommy Tough Guy pants on to request your name and verify player's card during said review. More likely I'd just want to bang the review out ASAP so I could resume the inter-office Hold Em tourney we had going on that you interrupted =p

You are very correct. The casinos want everyone to believe that everything in the casino is always being watched when the truth is unless there is a special circumstance nobody is watching you play the slots.

Odds are they didn't look at any meta-data. That may be on a separate system that they have to walk across the hall to get. Too much trouble to bother with over a simple TITO review.

They probably remotely froze the machine just to id you so now they know who you are

Quote: Wizardofnothing

They probably remotely froze the machine just to id you so now they know who you are

Are you suggesting that the machine was frozen remotely, for ID purposes, even though there was a players card in the machine at the time? Serious question (still early in the day). Think double meanings (inside joke).
If there was suspicion about the player, enough to remotely freeze the machine, get ID but then still pay the player, then what was the motive of the joint? Wanted to wait until the rest of the team was onsite to nab them all? Not sure I'm following correctly, maybe I didn't understand you ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Are you suggesting that the machine was frozen remotely, for ID purposes, even though there was a players card in the machine at the time? Serious question (still early in the day). Think double meanings (inside joke).
If there was suspicion about the player, enough to remotely freeze the machine, get ID but then still pay the player, then what was the motive of the joint? Wanted to wait until the rest of the team was onsite to nab them all? Not sure I'm following correctly, maybe I didn't understand you ;-)

Twofeathers, it's comments like that make you want to laugh your gut. So many AP's and non-AP's are paranoid. Paranoia is the worst enemy to an AP. Where every glitch that occurs is a purposeful attempt by the casino to get one's ID for eventual removal.

For the record, I waited about two months before posting this question and the players card I was using is still good today. It was never shut off, I used it every day for months after this episode along with a few other people's in that very same unnamed casino.

So, no, it was not a remote lockout. It was a machine malfunction.

Also, my experience with casinos is they don't resort to infiltration tactics. Usually they just send goons over if they want your ID or for you to leave the premises. (Hell, they could have just followed me to my room. I was staying in their hotel when this occurred and they could have got my name from the front register, lol.)

Dark- are you planning on witting a book some day about your ap experience?

Quote: darkoz

Twofeathers, it's comments like that make you want to laugh your gut. So many AP's and non-AP's are paranoid. Paranoia is the worst enemy to an AP. Where every glitch that occurs is a purposeful attempt by the casino to get one's ID for eventual removal.

For the record, I waited about two months before posting this question and the players card I was using is still good today. It was never shut off, I used it every day for months after this episode along with a few other people's in that very same unnamed casino.

So, no, it was not a remote lockout. It was a machine malfunction.

Also, my experience with casinos is they don't resort to infiltration tactics. Usually they just send goons over if they want your ID or for you to leave the premises. (Hell, they could have just followed me to my room. I was staying in their hotel when this occurred and they could have got my name from the front register, lol.)

You can call me 2F, less keystrokes, and actually I was just kidding another member. I hope he understood the joke.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Dark- are you planning on witting a book some day about your ap experience?

I've mentioned it on here before. The book is almost finished.

However, will I publish is the real question. Not anytime soon. Years from now.

Quote: darkoz

I've mentioned it on here before. The book is almost finished.

However, will I publish is the real question. Not anytime soon. Years from now.

I want it all, I want it now. Well, unless that just serves to mess up others, then maybe you should wait, how old are you anyway? You could have it published as your post-mortem memoirs ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I want it all, I want it now. Well, unless that just serves to mess up others, then maybe you should wait, how old are you anyway? You could have it published as your post-mortem memoirs ;-)

Thx, I'm honored. I'm 47 so I hope I have a few good years yet before any post-mortem memoirs are published.

I want to see my memoir on bookshelves.

Quote: darkoz

Thx, I'm honored. I'm 47 so I hope I have a few good years yet before any post-mortem memoirs are published.

I want to see my memoir on bookshelves.

I want to see your memoirs on the bookshelf now, It is fine with me if you are still alive. "I want it all", don't we all? If we should cross paths, somewhat doubtful, then 1st drinks on me, yes you can bring friends (20 or less would be appreciated by moi).....;-)

Quote: Face

Yeah, slots never got much attention from The Eye. The vast majority of calls for slots was stuff that only video could determine, such as "who hit the button that resulted in the j/p" (our joint paid the button pusher, no matter any other detail). Occasionally we'd get one on a coin-in dispute. Someone would say they put money in and didn't get credit; obviously the slot would not have that info, so we'd have to do the video review to see what happened.

In this case, it seems the slot stated it paid (which you said it did) and you denied it. If the slot says one thing and you say another, then yes, it would go to The Eye to see if a slip came out of the thing. It's pretty much the only way to prove it at that point. It's almost a certainty that The Eye didn't give f#$% all about you or your card, it probably never crossed their mind. They were likely too busy trying to find a camera less-sh#$$y enough to see the paper come out or not. I couldn't imagine how tight I'd have to have my Tommy Tough Guy pants on to request your name and verify player's card during said review. More likely I'd just want to bang the review out ASAP so I could resume the inter-office Hold Em tourney we had going on that you interrupted =p

That is interesting and kind of scary. So if some guy is playing slots with his girlfriend or a date and he put all the money in and his players card is in, and he asks her to pull the lever for luck, does that mean she could demand the full payout and just walk away with the money if the machine gets a good hit?

Also, is this why so many homeless/loiter types types sometimes come up to you and offer a "lucky" spin for you? In the off chance of a big hit they know they can just run off with all of the money?

You word it in a way that it sounds like it is your companies policy. But do you know if this is state law? Or is it a decision at a company level?

Does this only apply to handpay level jackpots or if the machine hits a couple hundred dollars and your date pulled the lever could they demand the winning credits from any spin that they activated?

And, this is more obscure and very unlikely, but what if two or more people pushed the button at the exact same time? You know we all have those superstitious friends who believe in "combined luck" or whatever and want all of the group members to put their hand on the button and push at once...


It seems like a rule (or law?) like that can lead to a lot of complicated scenarios if somebody is playing a machine with a date or a group of friends...

Law in almost every state is whoever hits the button can claim the jackpot

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Law in almost every state is whoever hits the button can claim the jackpot

I've seen casinos claim the players were in a financial partnership in situations like that. Then your girlfriend could not run off with your money. It is usually obvious.

What was being referred to was when a player steps away from a game and someone else claims they were sitting there.

HOWEVER, it is also used when a player is attempting not to show his ID on a jackpot payout - usually to avoid taxes which he might owe. Then it's important for the casino to see who actually pushed the button.

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Law in almost every state is whoever hits the button can claim the jackpot

I wish it was that simple. I would just run around the Wynn and hit the spin button on every machine that someone has money on.

Actually I think that is the most simplistic version barring any other circumstance. Obviously there are exception such as what you mention - but in its most simplistic version that is the law

Just like shooting someone point blank range is murder but there are mitigating and extenuating circumstances

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Actually I think that is the most simplistic version barring any other circumstance. Obviously there are exception such as what you mention - but in its most simplistic version that is the law

Just like shooting someone point blank range is murder but there are mitigating and extenuating circumstances

"He came at me with a knife, he wasn't aware I was carrying a hatchet, it took a couple chops, but I walked away a winner". You mean that sort of thing?

Quote: DRich

You are very correct. The casinos want everyone to believe that everything in the casino is always being watched when the truth is unless there is a special circumstance nobody is watching you play the slots.

I wouldn't say "nobody". Surv can get terribly monotonous, and I can only count down so much BJ before I'm close to killing myself, so I did watch em from time to time. Everything from general sweeps to some serious, right in your face observation. Certainly caught some pick pockets, some hinkiness fiddling with machines, and even a launderer. But generally no one's really watching the slots =)

Quote: Gandler

That is interesting and kind of scary. So if some guy is playing slots with his girlfriend or a date and he put all the money in and his players card is in, and he asks her to pull the lever for luck, does that mean she could demand the full payout and just walk away with the money if the machine gets a good hit?

No. She cannot "demand the full payout". She can't demand anything, including demanding that he be paid. If she pushed the button, she must accept the payout. That is the only option. If she refuses, the j/p is voided.

Quote: Gandler

You word it in a way that it sounds like it is your companies policy. But do you know if this is state law? Or is it a decision at a company level?

Bah, forgive me, but I don't feel like pulling out the Compact to check for sure (it was a tribal joint). But I do think it was more than just a guy saying "let's do it this way", so I'd lean away from company policy.

Quote: Gandler

Does this only apply to handpay level jackpots or if the machine hits a couple hundred dollars and your date pulled the lever could they demand the winning credits from any spin that they activated?

It's never happened with less than handpays (at least in my experience) but the money goes to the button pusher, period. Though in this case, it would be hard indeed to match the slot data with video and get the timing right to verify each and every. I imagine if someone wanted to fuss that, the slot department would try to arbitrate an agreement mostly on their own.

Quote: Gandler

And, this is more obscure and very unlikely, but what if two or more people pushed the button at the exact same time? You know we all have those superstitious friends who believe in "combined luck" or whatever and want all of the group members to put their hand on the button and push at once...

Not obscure, had this exact issue myself. The bottom-most hand wins, that is, the one that's actually on the button. If instead of a "sandwich-style" button press (hands on top of each other) they all have their fingers touching the actual button, it goes to they who had the most finger in play. You laugh, I'm dead serious. I had to determine whose finger covered the most area out of the four hands that were in there, and the man with the fat fingers got the payout.

Quote: Gandler

It seems like a rule (or law?) like that can lead to a lot of complicated scenarios if somebody is playing a machine with a date or a group of friends...

Sure does. Especially with the guy who had the cute thing walking by press his button and she nailed a hand pay. Total stranger, but she got the goods. She did end up giving him most of it, he did end up throwing her a few bucks, but it is she who will be sacked with the tax burden.

Quote: Face

<Really big snip>
Sure does. Especially with the guy who had the cute thing walking by press his button and she nailed a hand pay. Total stranger, but she got the goods. She did end up giving him most of it, he did end up throwing her a few bucks, but it is she who will be sacked with the tax burden.

Now why, never yet, doesn't some cute thing walk by and press my buttons? What am I doing wrong? She takes the tax burden, I get most of the money.....Well, there was that one time........no money, no taxes.........a long time ago.....(sigh);-)

WOW!

Face answer me what happens because I'm curious.

Okay, so lets look at a few scenarios. Lets assume dollar increments

#1) I pass by someone's machine (a total stranger) and push the spin button. The spin is a loser. I just stole a dollar from them indirectly by playing. The person complains. What happens?

#2) I pass by someone's machine who has left their money in the machine (abandoned credits). I push the machine and win nothing.

#3) I pass by someone's machine who has left their money in the machine and push the button and win a jackpot.

#4) I find a dollar on the floor, pick it up and put it in my pocket.

#5) I find a dollar on the floor, pick it up and play a spin losing it.

#6) I find a dollar on the floor, pick it up and play winning a jackpot.

#7) I reach into someone's pocket, pull out a dollar, go to a slot, insert it, win a jackpot.

Just curious how your casino would treat each instance.

If you are looking for dollars like that

Just saying


You might. It be an ap............ Lol


Thank you rich for basically saying the same thing about whoever pushes the button

Quote: Face

I wouldn't say "nobody". Surv can get terribly monotonous, and I can only count down so much BJ before I'm close to killing myself, so I did watch em from time to time. Everything from general sweeps to some serious, right in your face observation. Certainly caught some pick pockets, some hinkiness fiddling with machines, and even a launderer. But generally no one's really watching the slots =)



No. She cannot "demand the full payout". She can't demand anything, including demanding that he be paid. If she pushed the button, she must accept the payout. That is the only option. If she refuses, the j/p is voided.



Bah, forgive me, but I don't feel like pulling out the Compact to check for sure (it was a tribal joint). But I do think it was more than just a guy saying "let's do it this way", so I'd lean away from company policy.



It's never happened with less than handpays (at least in my experience) but the money goes to the button pusher, period. Though in this case, it would be hard indeed to match the slot data with video and get the timing right to verify each and every. I imagine if someone wanted to fuss that, the slot department would try to arbitrate an agreement mostly on their own.



Not obscure, had this exact issue myself. The bottom-most hand wins, that is, the one that's actually on the button. If instead of a "sandwich-style" button press (hands on top of each other) they all have their fingers touching the actual button, it goes to they who had the most finger in play. You laugh, I'm dead serious. I had to determine whose finger covered the most area out of the four hands that were in there, and the man with the fat fingers got the payout.




Sure does. Especially with the guy who had the cute thing walking by press his button and she nailed a hand pay. Total stranger, but she got the goods. She did end up giving him most of it, he did end up throwing her a few bucks, but it is she who will be sacked with the tax burden.

Wow that's crazy. If my girlfriend was playing slots and told me to spin for her and she hit something and I was stuck signing the W2 forms while she got all the cash I would be furious.
Actually I would probably refuse, would I be detained if I refused to provide my SSN for a play that was not mine?

I don't want extra income registered for not actually receiving anything....
I think W2s for 1200+ dollar hits are absurd to begin with, but thats a whole seperate issue.

Quote: Gandler

Wow that's crazy. If my girlfriend was playing slots and told me to spin for her and she hit something and I was stuck signing the W2 forms while she got all the cash I would be furious.
Actually I would probably refuse, would I be detained if I refused to provide my SSN for a play that was not mine?

Detained? Certainly not. You'd just be given one bit of info - either you claim it or it's gone. Of course, if you played it cool from the jump, you'd likely never get asked. It's not like we reviewed every handpay, just the ones that were in question.

Quote: darkoz

WOW!

Face answer me what happens because I'm curious.

You made this complicated by using something as silly as a dollar, though perhaps that was by design. I'll try my best...

Quote: darkoz

Okay, so lets look at a few scenarios. Lets assume dollar increments

#1) I pass by someone's machine (a total stranger) and push the spin button. The spin is a loser. I just stole a dollar from them indirectly by playing. The person complains. What happens?

You'd be asked to make them whole. As you said, you just committed theft. If you refused to rectify, I suppose you'd be 86'd.

Quote: darkoz

#2) I pass by someone's machine who has left their money in the machine (abandoned credits). I push the machine and win nothing.

The casino's official policy is that they are not responsible for abandoned credits, yet we still pursued almost all of these issues anyways. It was first slot's and then our discretion as to what happened next. We (surv) can and did deny review requests for issues <$100 when we were busy, or when our supe had a bug up her ass. But I have done reviews for amounts that would barely score you a dollar menu dinner in the name of customer service, so I guess "it depends".

If a review was conducted and you were found out, you would certainly be approached. What happened next, again, totally depended on the day and who you got. I've seen hundreds of dollars refused to be returned and the "perp" walked, I've seen tens of dollars result in arrest, and everything in between. Almost everyone pays after being confronted, FWIW.

Quote: darkoz

#3) I pass by someone's machine who has left their money in the machine and push the button and win a jackpot.

Again, many variables so "it depends". If no one was looking for said abandoned credits and you didn't stammer like a loon when approached, you'd likely not get one question except "cash or check?" In a worst case scenario where you were found out, you'd be asked to repay the amount of credits that you "stole".

Quote: darkoz

#4) I find a dollar on the floor, pick it up and put it in my pocket.

All "lost" money belongs to the owner until a reasonable search has been conducted and failed, at which point it went into a charity pot for tribal elders and youth (never to the casino). Worst case where someone made a scene over one dollar, and I was on duty and bored and took the review, and I found said owner, you would be asked for it back. If you refused, you could be 86'd. Some supes realize $1 isn't worth the lost revenue of your play, some supes realize $1 IS worth saving the revenue of they who lost it. Could go either way depending on their mood and who you got.

Quote: darkoz

#5) I find a dollar on the floor, pick it up and play a spin losing it.

Same as #4.

Quote: darkoz

#6) I find a dollar on the floor, pick it up and play winning a jackpot.

Same as #4. I suppose you're wondering about the j/p. One time I did have this exact issue (wasn't a dollar, but was a handpay off of abandoned credits. The j/p is yours, but you absolutely will be asked to make the victim completely whole. Of course, they didn't deny. I have no idea what would happen if the amount was such to require action and the j/p winner refused. That'd be post worthy, for sure =)

Quote: darkoz

#7) I reach into someone's pocket, pull out a dollar, go to a slot, insert it, win a jackpot.

That would be theft, and could be treated as such, depending, again, on who you got. Slots could just try to wash it by getting the victim's dollar back, which happens in damn near every case I've seen even when the amount went into the thousands. Very rarely have I seen a customer go the pressing charges route, and even that is usually when the thief leaves without us having found the perp for restitution. If the customer just wants the dollar, you'll be asked for a dollar. If they want to press charges, you're getting arrested right then and there.

You would be shocked and horrified at how many people fail to press charges, even over what I would call "severe amounts" including personal items such as jackets, purses, and phones, or amounts nearing and even exceeding four figures. It's no wonder casino theft happens so much, it's damn near a free roll.

Well thanks Face for taking time out to answer all those. I honestly didn't expect all those to be discussed. I know we are all on a busy schedule so it is greatly appreciated.

What I was trying to get at was whether it was stupid to reward someone or punish them based on the luck of a draw (whether they won or lost). You answered everything to my satisfaction although most casinos are wrong about the abandonment laws. Tribal land is I guess exempt but in most of the U.S., the law says if you find a dollar on the floor, it's yours and you cannot be asked to surrender it.

Quote: darkoz

. Tribal land is I guess exempt but in most of the U.S., the law says if you find a dollar on the floor, it's yours and you cannot be asked to surrender it.

Really? Cross PA off the list.

Quote: sabre

Really? Cross PA off the list.

Nah, pick the dollar up and give it to the closest cute lady showing cleavage and go into a long explanation of the various laws involved and why you couldn't keep it and why you are free to give it away, and then comment on her impressive cleavage ( NO, tell her she has a nice smile). It might not work, it only costs a dollar, wasn't even your dollar, think + EV......;-)

Darkoz- this issue has been litigated in pa and clearly it is not the person who finds it in the floor

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Darkoz- this issue has been litigated in pa and clearly it is not the person who finds it in the floor

And they like to remind you with posted placards all over the place.

Yea guys I said most of the U.S. not ALL of the U.S. Pa. is weird.

Quote: darkoz

Yea guys I said most of the U.S. not ALL of the U.S. Pa. is weird.

If by weird you mean the unquestionably correct way to handle things ... then yes, it's weird.

Darkoz I think you have a minority view on the actuality if a lot of situations

Quote: Wizardofnothing

Darkoz I think you have a minority view on the actuality if a lot of situations

Maybe its a New York thing.

Guarantee you, anyone finds a dollar on the floor in New York, they are putting it in their pocket.

And if they did hand it over to the authorities, guarantee you the authorities are putting it in their pocket.