Casino cheating ...

OK, so there was this recent thread, and the topic digressed, and pretty soon we were talking about if "casinos cheat" where really it was if there is rigging of slot machines, because after all how can a non-entity (I should talk!) cheat, it's always someone doing the cheating, and it comes from all sides, all directions, so you just have to know where most of it comes from, and that's from players and dealers and not from management...

So, here:

Two accused of capping bets at Mohegan blackjack table

That's an example of cheating ...

Now, find me a similar story about casinos cheating players at blackjack, not saying it doesn't exist, just that it's much more rare than the opposite, and "preferential shuffling" is not cheating, no 10 years in prison for that, which is what players can get cheating the casino, and this story is not card-counting, which I emphatically repeat is not cheating; ok all you AP's, you see I am not on the casinos side, I'm not on the dark side, I'm just on the truth side ...

--Dorothy

Let's assume for the sake of discussion (I don't use the term argument, because I know I won't win THAT) a publicly held corporation operates a casino. The corporation employs humans to manage the casino operation. These humans may have some sort of stock-based compensation plan, or perhaps participate in an ESOP pension plan, or otherwise have some stake in the publicly traded stock of the corporation. There may be one or a few influential stockholders who are particularly interested in the trading price of the corporations equity securities.

Now further assume that an unlikely downturn in the casino industry results in a decline in earnings, perhaps influencing dividend payments and even stock prices! One or a few people may experience a significant decline in earnings and/or net worth. IN MY OPINION, and I stress that because I don't want to be mistaken for making an unconditional statement, this MAY lead one or a few humans to consider fraudulently altering the outcomes of some of their business operation in an attempt, however ill-conceived, to bolster earnings and/or stock prices.

People have moments of weakness at times and moments when they are ticked off and intentionally make a wrong call but overall the casinos have just too much incentive to stick to the straight and narrow. Oh yeah, some executive at The Venetian tried to rig a car giveaway for a high roller. One foolish pit boss allowed a woman's very young daughter to step up and draw an entry from a great big drum of names. And a few people had chips taken from them in the backroom but not segregated as evidence as they should have been, but overall the casinos stay honest because for them it surely is the best policy!

Can you imagine anyone going into a casino that had a reputation for being a clip joint? A sweat the money place, yes. A clip joint, no!

Has there been routine theft of chips from a casino by employees? Sure. From the cashier, from the cage, from the Chip Dolly, from the table banks... but not from the players. An entire crew can meet up after work and divvy up the night's take, but they are stealing from the house, not the players. Switch out a box of real chips for some fake chips in the inner recesses of the storage drawer? Its the casino's loss.

No casino wants that golden goose killed.

OK. Here's a hypothetical (sort of):

A casino has a big player coming in who likes to play roulette. It is known he likes to bet certain numbers and stick with those numbers come Hell or high water. After a few hours at the wheel, the player takes a break. While he is gone, the wheel is switched with another wheel that looks the same, but the numbers the player likes are negatively biased, and this is known to the casino.

The player then proceeds to lose over $1 million.

Would you consider this cheating on the casino's part? Would it be worthy of prison time?

Or, is it just good clean fun?

...Just asking....

OK, here's a non-hypothetical ... still waiting to see if anyone gets my point:

Six accused of cheating ...

Now, who is doing the cheating? The players, most certainly ...

Just show me those RECENT links where the casinos were caught red handed like this ...

--Dorothy

Dorothy, I agree with you. But your challenge is a bit unfair, I think. Player's don't have the video cameras running constantly to monitor what the casino is doing. And players very rarely have access to the casinos' tapes. It would be far more difficult for a player to prove that the casino was cheating him than for the casino to prove the cases you have cited. That in no way implies you are wrong, only that you may be using a stacked deck in your challenge.

Quote: Doc

Player's don't have the video cameras running constantly to monitor what the casino is doing. And players very rarely have access to the casinos' tapes. It would be far more difficult for a player to prove that the casino was cheating him than for the casino to prove the cases you have cited.

In Nevada, casinos are required by law to tape everything on their gaming floor and hold those tapes for 30 days if there is a dispute of any type. A player who feels cheated simply calls gaming, describes the alleged cheating, gets the tapes, gaming reviews them, spots the cheating which is just as obvious no matter the side who is doing it, and so on ... then the casino loses its license, goes out of business, and so on ... The tapes do NOT belong to the casino, they belong to whoever feels aggrieved -- casino or player!

It is just a bad idea for a casino to "cheat" -- there are cheating players and dealers and pit bosses and so on, they all do it for their own benefit -- but the idea that "casinos cheat" is just silly -- and so many think that's the truth instead of the other way around, which is the real truth of the matter -- casinos are assaulted from all directions all day long ...

Speaking with a shift supervisor -- he says that he lets any player have one shot, as long as it's not too big, and it's not a problem. It's the second one that raises suspicion ... so casinos let players cheat a little bit ... otherwise the day would be too long ...

The idea that there is anywhere near the level of cheating by casinos towards players as the other way around is just ludicrous ...

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

So the idea that there is anywhere near the level of cheating by casinos towards players as the other way around is just ludicrous ...

The way I see it is that, in the long term, casinos win if they play by the rules, whereas players lose if they play that way. therefore it makes logical sense (absent other considerations) for players to cheat and none for casinos to do so.

But the house edge is an average drawn over millions of plays. In the short term the casino may lose. If that happens in conjunction with cash flow problems, the casino's upper management, those who make policy decisions, might decide to cheat.

Of course, in order to do so, they'd have to come up with various cheating systems for different games, and implement them in short order. And they then have to actually cheat without leaving evidence, and without a single employee squaling. That would be a remarkable feat.

In other words it is ludicrous.

There was a show on pay TV a few years ago about Casinos, in the USA, rigging slot machines so that they wouldn't pay jackpots.
The star witness, a former employee, was shot dead in his driveway before he could give evidence.
Did anyone else see this program?

Quote: DorothyGale

Now, find me a similar story about casinos cheating players at blackjack

Here is one:
http://wizardofodds.com/casinos/casinobar.html

Quote: DorothyGale

It is just a bad idea for a casino to "cheat" -- there are cheating players and dealers and pit bosses and so on

I think, most people would say it's a bad idea to cheat, period. For players and dealers as well as the casinos. But as we all know, this consideration does not always stop people. If it did, there would not be any cheating anywhere.

It can also be argued, that cheating is more risky for players - it is easier to get caught, and the potential punishment is more severe - jail time far outweighs a loss of license and going out of business in my book. They also have less to gain from it.

Quote: Nareed

The way I see it is that, in the long term, casinos win if they play by the rules, whereas players lose if they play that way. therefore it makes logical sense (absent other considerations) for players to cheat and none for casinos to do so.

Would you insist that no profitable business ever cheats by the same logic? Why would they, if they are making money without it? I really wish it worked that way ...