Civil forfeiture gone wild, police take more than burglars

Interesting link as an example of the epidemic of police abusing their authority via civil forfeiture or legal theft.

According to the FBI, total assets seized via civil forfeiture from 1989-2010 was 12.6 billion. In 2014 alone that number was 4.5 billion. By comparison, in 2014 total property losses reported by burglary were reported at 3.9 billion. Police are now taking more via civil forfeiture with no criminal charges than burglars by a significant amount.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-17/police-civil-asset-forfeitures-exceed-value-all-burglaries-2014

Quote: mcallister3200

Interesting link as an example of the epidemic of police abusing their authority via civil forfeiture or legal theft.

According to the FBI, total assets seized via civil forfeiture from 1989-2010 was 12.6 billion. In 2014 alone that number was 4.5 billion. By comparison, in 2014 total property losses reported by burglary were reported at 3.9 billion. Police are now taking more via civil forfeiture with no criminal charges than burglars by a significant amount.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-17/police-civil-asset-forfeitures-exceed-value-all-burglaries-2014

Good to see more viewers visiting the hedge.

That is an amazing stat, doesn't look correct at first glance though does it? I also saw where you are much more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist.

Quote: petroglyph

Good to see more viewers visiting the hedge.

That is an amazing stat, doesn't look correct at first glance though does it? I also saw where you are much more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist.

All the police ONLY do good work related to these drug laws. At least we can rest assured that they are "good guys" that work for the police.

http://fox5sandiego.com/2015/06/14/video-shows-cops-eating-pot-laced-treats-during-raid-attorney-says/

Quote: petroglyph

Good to see more viewers visiting the hedge.

That is an amazing stat, doesn't look correct at first glance though does it? I also saw where you are much more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist.

It has been brought to my attention that 1.7 billion seized from Madoff and 1.2 from Toyota are included in those numbers and certainly push them over the top of burglary perhaps making it an unfair comparison, however the rapid rise in amount of civil forfeiture points to a pretty serious problem where ordinary citizens can and are too often unfairly relieved of assets without due process.

Quote: mcallister3200

It has been brought to my attention that 1.7 billion seized from Madoff and 1.2 from Toyota are included in those numbers and certainly push them over the top of burglary perhaps making it an unfair comparison, however the rapid rise in amount of civil forfeiture points to a pretty serious problem where ordinary citizens can and are too often unfairly relieved of assets without due process.

This is one issue I am unsettled about. It's absolutely insane and something needs to be done. Everyone needs to keep talking about it.

If they can proof drugs or something criminal fine. But I have heard some disturbing stories where absolutely nothing remotely close to criminal behavior was going on. Some kids father gave him some money to relocate and find a job. WTF... that's horrible, that's the kind of stuff that could really mess up someones life.

perhaps a win with a class action lawsuit.

In a recent cross-country trip I experienced what I believe was an obvious civil forfeiture fishing expedition. I don't feel like going into all the details, but it began with a sheriff's deputy of whatever that sparsely populated little county was at my window politely telling me: "The reason I pulled you over is you were doing 79 on this highway posted for a limit of 75, but I'm not going to write you a ticket for it..." Huh? WTF? I resisted the temptation to say something like: "Are you sure? Because I'm usually not that slow, and definitely haven't been for most of this trip, and neither are any of the eighteen-wheel trucks zooming along on this desolate piece of road with me, so I must've gone by you at an unusually pokey moment; lucky I didn't get run over by one of them if I was really that slow." But instead I edited that thought slightly into: "Yessir."

Then the middle of the peculiar 'traffic stop' involved some rather unusual (to me) questions such as: "Have you come this way before? How often? Are you carrying any large amounts of cash?" Okay, now I think I'm getting what this is about, and it isn't four friggen MPH. It is about my plates being from several states away.

It ended with nothing forfeited and no lasting consequences for me (I'm prolly the most fastidiously legal S.O.B who was on that road) other than having to repack three weeks worth of bags by the side of the highway next to a cow pasture and put them back in my car. But I have now completely evolved my opinion from 'this sounds a little paranoid' into 'this is really officially without a doubt totally out of control, and it really needs to start costing the Sheriff of Nottingham something to keep doing it' if they don't feel like that pesky little business of the Fourth Amendment in the Bill of Rights applies to them, or to windy desolate places near cow pastures.

Quote: DrawingDead

other than having to repack three weeks worth of bags by the side of the highway next to a cow pasture and put them back in my car

Why did you have to re-pack anything? Was there just cause to search your vehicle? Was a warrant present?

Quote: DrawingDead

But instead I edited that thought slightly into: "Yessir."

Yeah, unless you're feeling like being jacked up, a brilliant answer.

There's probably a profile for well-off and/or might be carrying money -- aside from the usual drug dealers.

What a sham and scary too. Bad enough being robbed by crooks and have to worry about cops as well.

Quote: Dodsferd

Quote: DrawingDead

other than having to repack three weeks worth of bags by the side of the highway next to a cow pasture and put them back in my car

Why did you have to re-pack anything? Was there just cause to search your vehicle? Was a warrant present?

This is exactly where I didn't want to go with this, though I do understand why you ask. The asnwers are: In my opinion, no none whatsoever. And no, of course not. And would it have gotten searched anyway, without my consent when asked? You're damn right it would, with or without an assist from a barking deputy Fido two hours later. Not hard to gin up probable cause, and when asked for consent to search I chose to go that route. You may choose differently. Or not, depending. Fine. I'm going to say this in advance, using the general plural "you" for what follows: You (as in the plural y'all/whomever) aren't me, and I'm not interested in hearing someone's instruction on my choice, and will have MUCH less than zero respect for the kind of individual who may now still insist on doing so anyway. I have a boatload of excellent lawyers, including a former prosecutor and public defender, up the ying-yang in my family, believe I'm considerably better informed on the matter than > 98% of the motoring public, and knew exactly what I was doing when I consented to the search, and why I was choosing to do so as a purely practical matter. If someone else in that circumstance chooses differently FOR THEMSELVES more power to 'em, I fully respect that choice, and look forward to hearing how it worked out for 'ya. I made the correct choice in that for me.

Quote: DrawingDead

This is exactly where...[snip]...

Uhhh okay then. I wasn't trying to open some wounds or anything, I was simply asking. Do whatever you want, no further questions from me.

on second thought, deleted by me

If something doesn't change it's not IF its WHEN someone I know will be affected by this.

There's been a few close calls.

It used to be you would pray for just a warning and was pissed off if you got a ticket. Nowadays you're praying... just give me a ticket, please just give me a ticket, then excited and fist pumping that you just got a ticket.

So sick.

Quote: Dodsferd

Quote: DrawingDead

other than having to repack three weeks worth of bags by the side of the highway next to a cow pasture and put them back in my car

Was there just cause to search your vehicle? Was a warrant present?

That's all easy to say for most people.

However until you're in a situation out on some small county road traveling with money. You don't want to test any theories like that. it's absolutely -EV

Yes sir, sorry sir is the correct way to go.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's all easy to say for most people.

However until you're in a situation out on some small county road traveling with money. You don't want to test any theories like that. it's absolutely -EV

Yes sir, sorry sir is the correct way to go.

Sure, I can understand that. I also hail from a country where this isn't common, so my conception of CPS encounters is much different. I deal with the police on such a regular basis, that I have no fear of them pulling me over.

If I were to experience otherwise, sure I have no doubt that I would have hesitation as well.

To be immediately barked at for asking the question in the first place is all I was commenting on. If he wants to be salty about it, that's his prerogative. I was merely being inquisitive.

Quote: rxwine

There's probably a profile for well-off and/or might be carrying money -- aside from the usual drug dealers.

I have no doubt whatsoever that I met some kind of profile he was instructed to use, and that as soon as he lit me up (for 79 in a 75) he was sure he had everything he needed to proceed down that path as far as he needed to by the policy he was given to follow. Though other than the plates that were very non-local I really don't know what the elements of that profile would be. He was a very young fellow, had to be very junior in his agency no matter how small that county might be, and I don't believe he was acting "rogue" in any way. The entire interaction was done in a very professional manner and was very civil, and considering all the circumstances my goal was to be sure to keep it that way. So long as it did not become a power struggle, I was confident how it would end. With an annoyance, but no more under my circumstances.

Perhaps the 'small talk' was maybe a bit interesting to note. "So what brings you headed all the way up there?" "I'm going to see some baseball games." "Oh yeah, who they playing?...Huh, sounds interesting, when is that game on?...etc." Momma may have raised an occasional fool, but not a complete idiot. A distinction with a difference. That was no small talk. A minute of reflection and I'm sure it will occur to you why it wasn't, or wouldn't have been if I chose to continue down the friendly cooperative conversational path but somehow didn't know who and when. But I had tickets and hotel bookings sitting in my padfolio with my route map, other arrangements for cash transfer, and no dope or hand grenades in my trunk. Lucky me. So I may not have had four aces, but at least a set of jacks. So long as he was on the level and professional on his end, which he was, apart from that little detail about a local policy of using a flimsy pretext for initiating a fishing expedition. If I had a brick of cash sitting in the car for my long trip that someone might say is "a lot?" Hmmm.

I should also mention that he made a point of telling me repeatedly something to the effect that "we always do this..." meaning ask those questions and look in bags routinely for traffic stops. I have a hard time picturing THAT. And certainly didn't picture it "always" for anyone allegedly doing all of 4mph over the posted speed. I'm sure they do get their share of drug mules and whatnot that way from some single digit % of such stops, but it wasn't destined to be the county treasurer's lucky day, and cost me all of about 20 minutes and no cents.

Quote: Dodsferd

To be immediately barked at for asking the question in the first place is all I was commenting on. If he wants to be salty about it, that's his prerogative. I was merely being inquisitive.

I intended to make it clear that I was not put off by you just asking the question, and that the remarks after my answer were intended to forestall something which had not yet occurred, and not necessarily from you. Obviously, I failed. I'll try again.

I understand why you'd ask the question; it is relevant to the issues of the incident. So I chose to answer your question, and the answer is that I chose to consent, based on my individual judgement of my self-interest under the particular circumstances at the time. It may not be identical to the choice I'd make under all circumstances at all times and places. And, I do not now wish to debate that choice, while fully understanding that in asking the perfectly reasonable and relevant question, probably simply for information to understand what did and did not occur, it does not mean that you individually intended to plunge ahead into doing that. But there will be some here who usually won't be able to help themselves, because they are hard-wired that way. If they emerge, I plan to throw rocks at them. Rocks that smell of a certain cow pasture.

Quote: DrawingDead

...Obviously, I failed. I'll try again...

It's entirely likely that my comprehension of the way you phrased your response was lacking due to the end of my work rotation. I apologize for misunderstanding the intent of your post.

Like I said before, I understand the stigma around encounters with dealing with the police under specific circumstances. Likely, I would have the same preferred ways of dealing with them as has been outlined here by yourself and others. T'was not my intent to jump the train with asking a question that you in effect, want to avoid. I just haven't had the negative dealings myself, and still have a notion of a non corrupt justice system.

Quote: Dodsferd

It's entirely likely that my comprehension of the way you phrased your response was lacking due to the end of my work rotation. I apologize for misunderstanding the intent of your post.

Like I said before, I understand the stigma around encounters with dealing with the police under specific circumstances. Likely, I would have the same preferred ways of dealing with them as has been outlined here by yourself and others. T'was not my intent to jump the train with asking a question that you in effect, want to avoid. I just haven't had the negative dealings myself, and still have a notion of a non corrupt justice system.

I believe I understand where you're coming from with that, at least in part. I almost never get tickets, including some tickets I probably deserved to get occasionally.

I don't get them, I believe in part because of some things in the interaction like being considerate of his situation & reducing his stress (with a stranger who could be a well-armed serial killer) by immediately slowing and signalling my intent to pull over, then doing so in a very safe place well out of traffic (but if I have a choice in front of a camera such as a convenience store or ATM), keeping my hands visible on the wheel as he approaches, remaining still unless and until asked to do something, and asking for permission before reaching for anything, having all my necessary documents handy and very clearly in order, keeping my voice calm and deferential even if I don't feel that way at all, and a whole list of stuff I have intentionally committed to memory so they are second nature. A lot of little stuff that's mostly about making sure he knows he's safe and I'm very unlikely to become one of his weirder or more hair-raising stories, to keep from having a much worse day than we both need to.

I've found that they notice me taking care to do that, I think because the first priority is they want to know that they get to go home later. So far, this has even worked with one fellow (a Las Vegas Metro PD patrolman) who was seriously worked up for some reason. Given the silly innocuous mistake that led to the stop, I don't know why he was agitated, but it may have been something unrelated to me. But whatever, I let him vent, I lowered my voice to his raised one, his temperature cooled, and I had a happy ending. And went home and told him off every which way for being an unprofessional nutjob and a disgrace to his badge... to my mirror.

I do not judge your choice, but I would have told them to get a warrant. In fact, I did, when I was stopped by Nevada Highway Patrol - Reno Division and asked for consent for a search. I wrote about it on my blog here. (Scroll down to Day 8 - Reno, Nev.)

Anything you can do to make it harder I would do. I told them to get a warrant and they brought the dog. The dog was a joke, of course. It was sickening to see the whole thing in action.

I was not in a cow pasture, I was in a cold parking lot next to Circus Circus Reno. They made me stand on the sidewalk.

How long did the whole thing take? I was picturing getting to know those cows for something like > 2 hours while they involve more people and fetch Sergeant Fido the Wonder Dog, perhaps calling over to the next county to get him, but that's nothing but a wild guess by me. [Probably that's in your blog, and I'll see it later.]

I figure everyone is allowed to carry a big wad of cash (if they want to) without worrying about if they are going to stopped and asked by the police if they are carrying a large amount of cash. It's not crime, and it's not any of their business.

Aside from that, if the car is not a rental they can impound those. Even without cash, you're potentially in risky territory. (maybe they can impound the rental, but hopefully that wouldn't be my problem)

Those are some of the biggest problems with these supposedly routine stops for minor traffic aberrations.

*also, I'm not judging whether it's smart or not to be carrying cash, just that it's still in the territory of no ones business.

Yeah, 9999.00 is still legal, I think.

I recall a traffic stop became high risk when car drove to concenience store a quarter mile away. This became a factor in shooting an unarmed motorist.

Quote: rxwine

Yeah, 9999.00 is still legal, I think.

All amounts are legal. Over $10000 needs to be reported when it is part of a transaction. Over $10000 needs to be reported when it is being taken out of the country.

Quote: rxwine

I figure everyone is allowed to carry a big wad of cash (if they want to) without worrying about if they are going to stopped and asked by the police if they are carrying a large amount of cash. It's not crime, and it's not any of their business.

I'd like to figure that. Probably because I do, in fact, sometimes carry a bunch of cash (just not this time) and it is, in fact, nobody's &@#% business.

And the thought of being stuck in nowhereville while they impound my car to take it apart to x-ray every bolt or somesuch after they get Sgt. Fido to supposedly 'alert' by peeing on my tire or scratching at a flea in his his furry ear or something crossed my mind, with about the same appeal as straight-up jail.

I'll second Mr. Wolf in that I found myself actually thinking "I'd really like to just get a ticket to pay and be done and gone" when it became clear to me where the thing was potentially going. For a 79 in a 75 I might copy and frame it.

Sgt. Fido would alert to even a lonely $1 bill. I've long wondered if the BoEaP intentionally adds small traces of narcotics in paper money in the printing process.

"A thriving subculture of road officers on the network now competes to see who can seize the most cash and contraband, describing their exploits in the network’s chat rooms and sharing “trophy shots” of money and drugs. Some police advocate highway interdiction as a way of raising revenue for cash-strapped municipalities."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/

One organization:

https://bales.org/

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Sgt. Fido would alert to even a lonely $1 bill. I've long wondered if the BoEaP intentionally adds small traces of narcotics in paper money in the printing process.

Being pulled over, especially out of your district or State, especially if you really didn't do anything wrong, is disconcerting to say the least. You got several options, I'll skip the first two. For the record, I have never had to dispose of any bodies because of some silly traffic stop. The situation is so situational dependent that it is hard to give any concrete advice except maybe this:
Think about the implications before you get in a vehicle in any situation, inside your local jurisdiction or not. Think about the risks, the implications, don't get caught by 'surprise'. Then handle the situation appropriately. Usually, even in almost the worst of circumstances, you should just let it play out without getting 'hasty'. A few thou in greenbacks most often makes the whole thing go away. Just my opinion. 2F

Damn, I just thought of an exception I found myself in, then thought of another almost exception.
Posting now, don't look back.
Well, maybe the rear view mirror...

DrawingDead, thanks for the story. It gives all of us gamblers something to think about. Hopefully in the future searches will be required to be videotaped assuming a non-life threatening scenario.

I just want to survive a traffic stop, and it would be great not to have to put all my stuff back afterwards or maybe even escape paying a fine. A small ticket if it doesn't raise my insurance rates I consider part of the vig. It's just how my life has run.

I hope opinions won't be to snarky, but you guys seem to know a lot about proper procedure an all, especially with having legal eze in your family's.

This is my situation. There is just no way a K-9 won't alert on me or my vehicle. I travel usually in a small rv, which would be big enough for any kind of contraband? Just the way I roll. I have some hand fulls of cash usually under 2 thousand. I also have some weed, and some prescriptions [mine] that are highly sought after. And, I am what some would consider, " well armed".

I don't consider myself a criminal? I had one traffic ticket in 25 years, and nothing else since my yoot. Other than the fact my mmj license expired, my weed is in prescription bottles with my name on them, except for the edibles and the oil, which were made from prescription weed. I can renew my mmj license at anytime, but am a bit tired of paying the 3 hundred bucks per year to keep it updated. I was thinking pleading ignorance if I'm caught with an expired license, of which I have 3 of?

Like I said, I'm not really a criminal, should I just let them search me, or try to smooze my way out. Thoughts? Think I will just get mowed down at initial conference, should I just try to shoot my way out? I won't make it far if I try to run.

I have no business giving anyone else legal advice, especially not about that kind of license that I don't know squat about, so I won't. One practical street-sense thing I'll say is DON'T start spinning tales, fibbing, spewing a fog of BS stories to dance around the subject, and the like. They'll have no trouble at all tripping up the yarn spinner and poking holes in it without even trying hard, what with that being their job that they do with people all day every day. Clear concise answers directly responsive to questions (with no extraneous bullspit that wasn't asked) are one choice, I don't know or don't remember could also be another perfectly sensible response, or one might choose to say you do not want to answer questions. But I'm real sure that telling 'clever' tales ain't usually gonna end well for the tale teller, and is likely to be a way to make anything worse and guarantee the maximum amount of drama and getting a thorough rectal exam, figuratively speaking.

I've been pulled over and held at shotgun point for 2 hours by a police officer. It wasn't much fun.

Several weeks later I realized I had Percocets in a pill container in my pocket (along with all my regular old man medications), without the prescription bottle. THAT would not have gone over well. I don't carry the Percs with me any more.

"Two rules, man. Stay away from my f#$%ing percocets, and do you have any f#$%ing percocets?"

Under the circumstances, what with the shotgun and all, I recommend: "...do you have any f*ing Percocets, Sir!?"

Quote: petroglyph

... my mmj license expired, my weed is in prescription bottles with my name on them, except for the edibles and the oil, which were made from prescription weed. I can renew my mmj license at anytime, but am a bit tired of paying the 3 hundred bucks per year to keep it updated. I was thinking pleading ignorance if I'm caught with an expired license, of which I have 3 of?

OK, I assume you know that MMJ laws vary widely by state, and that weed is illegal under federal law, so you're doing a legal tap dance.

Do not bring your weed out of your licensing / home state: period.

You can bring your MMJ license with you to Nevada when you are visiting, and the dispensary will honor it and hook you up, or so I've read.

If you're pulled over in your licensing state, and you have weed, tell the cop and show him your paperwork: only a fool would keep weed in their car without the MMJ license available.

Plus, you have NO BUSINESS having weed in the car, unless you are bringing it home from a legal dispensary, in which event your MMJ paperwork would be shown at the point of sale.

Do not blaze and drive: no exceptions.

God help you if you get pulled over by the feds, as they do not have to recognize state MMJ licenses and can and will prosecute if they want to.

Otherwise, enjoy the buzz!

Quote: MrV

If you're pulled over in your licensing state, and you have weed, tell the cop and show him your paperwork: only a fool would keep weed in their car without the MMJ license available.

I'm in the 4 corners area and I'm not worried about losing any professional licensing, except my cdl. I looked at NM and it seems like [ under an oz.] is either a hundred or fifty dollars, without a license. I'm not sure?

Colorado is over the counter. Nevada, I don't know, and Ariz. is probably 15 years to life for a blunt? It seems to me to have become a ridiculous fee for me to keep the license refreshed, for permission [only by the state, not feds], for a condition that is permanent. Logic need not apply.

It sucks, to have the conditions that allow me mmj permission wherever it is allowed, but to continue to have to prove , what is a condition for which I am not expected to recover. Anyone that would convict me really needs to reconsider their existence.

I was running a cost benefit analysis in my head, taking chances which scare the hell out of my bride, who doesn't partake. I guess I will just pay the state another vig and re-up. It's a yearly fee here, I was stretching it out to 16 months, trying to capitalize on ignorance.

Az. started out letting patients grow their medicine, now it is really prohibitive. If capitalism or consideration for the patient were at play here, the cost would have went down. The price is higher than when it was illegal, sans the court costs.

It is a rotten turn that I can keep old scrip narcotic pain meds in the medicine cabinet until they turn to powder and nothing will ever come of it. I can travel all 50 states with a tanker full of percs. But what society worries about is whether or not someone with a debilitating condition crosses states lines with a fatty. Sheesh.

In all the talk, in all the changes over the past few years, I had not considered the CDL implications by state, and between states. I will have to do some research, interesting topic.

DD,

I'm having a hard time imagining you fit any kind of profile for drug or money running (this is not a dig at you). I hate that this country has become a place for police bounty-hunting ie seizures.

I did read a long time ago (so don't know that it's still true, but seems likely) that virtually every hundred dollar bill in the US will test positive for drug traces. That much seems a losing proposition for anybody travelling with cash, as presumably the dog will alert on the hot Benjamins, even if you just withdrew them. Guess it's a good thing you made cash arrangements at your destination.

I am hoping that we're within 3-5 years of marijuana laws changing simultaneously in many states; I think the critical mass has nearly been reached, helped by a dearth of negative stories out of CO and WA, and growing movements in many states (including FL, where I'm volunteering on the ballot initiative) to get MMJ approval. We are, as a country, beyond ridiculous and into cupidity and stupidity on this subject. I'm also shocked to hear that Petro has to pay an annual renewal fee for his chronic problem. That's just usury, taking advantage of people with illnesses, whose medical costs are enough without that.

/minirant

Quote: beachbumbabs

DD,

I'm having a hard time imagining you fit any kind of profile for [a wild life of dangerous adventure coming soon to a theater near you]

So do I. As does every Las Vegas tourist babe on whom I've ever tried to pull the popular 'can't miss' James Bond man of mystery routine. Even when they're blind drunk. And yet....

All of which isn't very helpful at all for informing anyone, including myself, on exactly what not to do to be selected for an unscheduled stop and get unexpectedly quite familiar with a lovely herd of cows.

Quote: Face

"Two rules, man. Stay away from my f#$%ing percocets, and do you have any f#$%ing percocets?"

GREAT sports film, one of my all time favorites. So real.