How do you define gambling?

In light of the recent attention on Draft Kings and Fan Duel and if their one day fantasy sports contests do or do not constitute gambling, it got me thinking about how others define it. Let me present some examples for discussion. Please note that I'm not considering AP techniques that can provide a positive expectation under certain circumstances.

a) Games of pure chance such as roulette and craps.

I think this pretty obviously is gambling as the outcome is pure chance (again not withstanding DI or biased wheels), and there is a negative expectation to the game.

b) Games of chance but where the house edge can be decreased with proper play. Example are blackjack, video poker, three card poker, etc)

While there is some skill that the player can employ to lower the edge, the outcome is still random and barring any AP techniques, still negative

c) A coin flip (say with a friend, so no juice)

Pure chance outcome, and can't turn it into a positive expectation. I'd still consider this gambling since the outcome is purely random even though there isn't a negative expectation.

d) Games of chance but with correct skill can turn the game into a long term positive expectation such as poker

This is where it begins to get a little murky for me, as someone who is skilled can have a long term positive expectation, although the hand to hand outcomes are still somewhat determined by chance. I say somewhat by chance because it's certainly possible to win with the worst hand with a well timed bluff, which is a skill.

Some may also put sports handicapping and horse handicapping in this category. I'm not sure where I stand on that. I know there are some skilled operators in those areas who have proven winning records, and while I have no evidence to support this, I sense there are fewer than there are in poker.

e) Daily sports fantasy

Interesting with this one. Certainly skill factors in to make the correct selections, but once that selection is make the outcome is random. I tend to lump this one in the same vein as the previous category

f) Season long sports fantasy

These have been around for a while, and there has not been the outcry with these as there is with daily fantasy. Is it because, there is more skill involved than daily sports fantasy (waiver wire management, trades, head to head matchups, bye week management, etc)? Or is just because DK and FD have been so aggressively marketing the daily sports fantasy market as contrasted with those companies involved in season long fantasy?

g) A chess tournament

I think most people including myself would not consider this gambling, as skill wins out in most all situations even if there was an an administrative fee (aka juice) to enter.

h) Insurance

No, not the kind taken in blackjack. I'm talking about life, property and casualty, and health. I doubt very many look at this as gambling, but if you break it down, you pay premium (wager), and if a certain event happens (death, theft, illness), you are paid a defined amount (winnings), with mathematical models to make sure the insurance company (house) makes money. I do understand this industry very well and understand the concept of pooled risk, but at it's core, it looks very similar to gambling.

I think the factors at play in defining gambling are:
1) Is there something of value at risk?
2) Is there a house edge?
3) Is the outcome determined by chance, or by skill?

This last criteria is where the lines can get blurred as there are a number of games where both chance and skill have a say in the outcome.

Another related discussion is how/if they should be regulated, taxed, etc.

I'm bringing up this topic for discussion, I don't feel there is any wrong or right answers, but want to know how others feel.

Gambling is quite simple. The elements are consideration, chance and prize. Its really rather simple. The only real issue up for discussion is the element of chance, which is specifically what this "skill" argument is that they are making. However, this is the same argument that the people made in new jersey back in the backgammon days. The presence of any chance involved whatsoever removed the skill argument in virtually all cases ever argued.

I don't see how if something is determined by chance or skill has any bearing on whether it is gambling.

To me gambling is a scenario where something of value is risked without knowing if something of at least fair market value will be returned or not.

Quote: mrsuit31

Gambling is quite simple. The elements are consideration, chance and prize. Its really rather simple. The only real issue up for discussion is the element of chance, which is specifically what this "skill" argument is that they are making. However, this is the same argument that the people made in new jersey back in the backgammon days. The presence of any chance involved whatsoever removed the skill argument in virtually all cases ever argued.

How would you categorize a chess tournament (with contestant fees)? I think one can argue that this there this is primarily skill, yet if you use a coin flip to determine the opening move, then the element of chance enters in?

What about a one day golf tournament (with a contestant fees)? Again, skill based, but in a large enough tournament, the random act of weather can impact the results. So, since this is an element of chance factors in, is this gambling too?

I like the comparison with insurance companies.
I bet I'm gonna die, they bet I'm not gonna.
I bet my house goes up in flames, they bet it will not.
I bet I wreak my new car, they bet I will not.
They've done the math, built in the huge house edge in the premiums.
And frequently, by law, you have to buy the insurance. Nice gig!
Good thread.

<edit> I forgot to mention that if we all die at once, the insurance exec spent the last year enjoying his yacht while you were working 9-5 to make the money to pay your premiums. There will not be anyone left to pay the no ones that aren't left to receive......

I just wrote something up in another thread, but it's worth pointing out that "gambling" has traditionally been defined differently from "betting." In other words, gambling is on events like blackjack and roulette, while betting is on events like horses and football. In either case, the player is "wagering" and that's what, in my opinion, should be regulated -- regardless of what the wager is placed upon.

NRS 463 defines "wager" as "a sum of money or representative of value that is risked on an occurrence for which the outcome is uncertain."

Quote: DRich

I don't see how if something is determined by chance or skill has any bearing on whether it is gambling.

To me gambling is a scenario where something of value is risked without knowing if something of at least fair market value will be returned or not.

That's an interesting look at it. By that definition, almost any investment then is gambling. Securities, real estate, precious metals fall would apply. I'm not saying that is wrong, just don't know if everybody looks at it that way, especially for some of the lower risk investment options.

Quote: MidwestAP

That's an interesting look at it. By that definition, almost any investment then is gambling. Securities, real estate, precious metals fall would apply. I'm not saying that is wrong, just don't know if everybody looks at it that way, especially for some of the lower risk investment options.

I disagree wit this because in general when buying stocks or real estate you are paying fair market value for something with an opportunity to sell it to someone else for fair market value. In this case the purchase isn't gambling, holding the asset is the gamble.

duplicate

Quote: MidwestAP

a) Games of pure chance such as roulette and craps.

I think this pretty obviously is gambling as the outcome is pure chance (again not withstanding DI or biased wheels), and there is a negative expectation to the game.

If it is based purely on chance and there is a negative expectation it should not be considered gambling. It is giving your money away.

Quote: MidwestAP

b) Games of chance but where the house edge can be decreased with proper play. Example are blackjack, video poker, three card poker, etc)

While there is some skill that the player can employ to lower the edge, the outcome is still random and barring any AP techniques, still negative

What is the difference between "proper play" and "AP?" Proper play in video poker turns the house edge into a players edge.

Quote: MidwestAP

e) Daily sports fantasy

Interesting with this one. Certainly skill factors in to make the correct selections, but once that selection is make the outcome is random. I tend to lump this one in the same vein as the previous category

If someone who has never even seen a football game and makes a bunch random bets in the sportsbook against the point spread they will only lose 4.5% of all money bet. They will not come anywhere near that success rate if they make random selections on Fan Duel.

Quote: DRich

To me gambling is a scenario where something of value is risked without knowing if something of at least fair market value will be returned or not.

I like this definition by DRich. As AP's, consumed with +EV, many of us don't consider or acknowledge what we do as gambling. Most of us that play for a living don't say "we gambler for a living" or use the term "professional gambler". And in the long run, over a year (75 to 80 thousand rounds of blackjack for me), or maybe even a longer set amount of time or trials like multiple years, when the +EV thing kicks in, it's fair to say it's not gambling. But in the short term, it's no different than the all the other players in the casino. You are risking money unsure of the short-term outcome.

So, while I don't call myself a 'professional gambler', I think it is fair to say that I gamble almost every day. :/

Isn't the definition of +EV that your return is better than "fair market value?"

A wise poster once posted, "Gambling is any money you pay in hopes of getting more money
" This is the best definition. :)

Quote: TomG

Isn't the definition of +EV that your return is better than "fair market value?"

Sort of....but only in the long run. In the short term......it's nothing more than gambling.

Here's the REAL definition of gambling.......Speed Count! :)

Quote: kewlj

Sort of....but only in the long run. In the short term......it's nothing more than gambling.

That's true for a lot work people do. In the long run they will all earn "fair market value" but completely unsure of what there earnings will be in the short-term.

Is owning a business or working as a cocktail waitress also gambling?

Quote: TomG

Quote: MidwestAP

a) Games of pure chance such as roulette and craps.

I think this pretty obviously is gambling as the outcome is pure chance (again not withstanding DI or biased wheels), and there is a negative expectation to the game.

If it is based purely on chance and there is a negative expectation it should not be considered gambling. It is giving your money away.

Agreed

Quote: TomG

Quote: MidwestAP

b) Games of chance but where the house edge can be decreased with proper play. Example are blackjack, video poker, three card poker, etc)

While there is some skill that the player can employ to lower the edge, the outcome is still random and barring any AP techniques, still negative

What is the difference between "proper play" and "AP?" Proper play in video poker turns the house edge into a players edge.

I should have been more specific, I was thinking bj basic strategy.

Also, most vp machines, on most days, won't get you positive EV regardless of how good your play is, even when factoring in points or progressives. Of course sometimes they will and those are the ones AP's look for.

Quote: TomG

Quote: MidwestAP

e) Daily sports fantasy

Interesting with this one. Certainly skill factors in to make the correct selections, but once that selection is make the outcome is random. I tend to lump this one in the same vein as the previous category

If someone who has never even seen a football game and makes a bunch random bets in the sportsbook against the point spread they will only lose 4.5% of all money bet. They will not come anywhere near that success rate if they make random selections on Fan Duel.

That's true, which speaks to the skill involved.

http://www.what-is-gambling.com/

What about the guy who marries his attractive 25 year old fiancé.

He is GAMBLING she won't turn into a 35 year old 250 lb, man-hating bi*ch. Lol. (and I suppose vice-versa)

Risking money when it's not a sure thing.
Easy peasy explanation.

The goal is to lesson the risk. And lesson
it. And lesson it.

Quote: EvenBob

Risking money when it's not a sure thing.
Easy peasy explanation.

The goal is to lesson the risk. And lesson
it. And lesson it.

http://www.gingersoftware.com/english-online/spelling-book/confusing-words/lessen-lesson

Quote: Ahigh

Quote: EvenBob

Risking money when it's not a sure thing.
Easy peasy explanation.

The goal is to lesson the risk. And lesson
it. And lesson it.

http://www.gingersoftware.com/english-online/spelling-book/confusing-words/lessen-lesson

But Bob meant 'lesson', like, "I'll learn you to sass back at me!" [teach a lesson]

Quote: MathExtremist

NRS 463 defines "wager" as "a sum of money or representative of value that is risked on an occurrence for which the outcome is uncertain."

That's investing for sure.

Quote: odiousgambit

That's investing for sure.

Also college. I dont use what i learned in school such as etops flight dispatching or aviation weather.

If someone were to bet all the numbers on roulette (known outcome)I would consider that gaming, usually stupid, but gaming none the less.

I think gambling is the industry of offering games of chance in order to make a profit. You offer games where you have a mathematical edge, and over time, you will just count your money. For instance, I think there is an important distinction between a sports book and a 100 square office pool for the Super Bowl where all money is returned. A sports book, simply put, relies on the concept of taking in two separate $110 wagers and paying out $210, making them $10. An office pool where no money is kept by the person running the pool and 100% of it is returned to the people in it, I don't view as gambling.

I think daily fantasy sports is gambling, and IMO this should become a referendum on illegal sports gambling in our society. I think it is much better to wager at a casino or book and lose your money, instead of falling behind some bookie on the street where he can take out your knees with a baseball bat. Some of these same arguments were used in legalizing marijuana, which it essentially took it out of the drug dealers hands and put it in actual businesses

Gambling?
Making big plans for tomorrow before you go to sleep tonight?

In life there are no guarantees.

Therefore everything you do is a gamble.

Quote: FatGeezus

In life there are no guarantees.

Therefore everything you do is a gamble.

To truly define gambling would be to guarantee it.