Paris Under Seige

Anybody else having trouble processing this as
it's happening? This is 911 all over again.

It all adds up. As Cheyne said Obama will go into history as the worst president the U.S. has ever had.

Quote: EvenBob

Anybody else having trouble processing this as it's happening? This is 911 all over again.

Excuse me? Maybe if the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame Cathedral were in ruins (and if ISIS had anything to do with it, I'm a little surprised it wasn't a target), I'd believe this was anything close to 9/11, but it appears to be just a group of (coordinated) attacks in Paris. Even the bombing right outside of the soccer stadium didn't stop the match (France won 2-0, BTW).

What worries me is, the scale is small enough that there really isn't that much that can be done to stop it happening again, weeks or months later, in pretty much any major city in the world. If this were to happen in, say, London, New York, and Sydney, all on the same day, then I'd be worried.

The guy they arrested is Syrian, recruited
by Isis. Germany is now full of Syrians.
EU will never be the same again.

Quote: EvenBob

Anybody else having trouble processing this as
it's happening? This is 911 all over again.

It is very troubling EB. It is a very troubling time and world in which we currently live. :(

Quote: Dicenor33

It all adds up. As Cheyne said Obama will go into history as the worst president the U.S. has ever had.

I don't think this is the time or place to be discussing blame, but if Mr Cheney wants to engage in placing blame he can start by looking in the mirror.

Again, this is not really the time to talk politics, but it does make you look at someone like a Rand Paul, who wants to cut military spending as just out of touch with what is going on in the world today.

Shocking
Over 100 music fans killed
Terrorists were up in the balcony shooting down on the crowd in the concert hall.
So sad

Quote: Dicenor33

It all adds up. As Cheyne said Obama will go into history as the worst president the U.S. has ever had.

I don't think you should go down the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson path blaming an American or Americans for terrorist acts.

Quote: kewlj

Again, this is not really the time to talk politics, but it does make you look at someone like a Rand Paul, who wants to cut military spending as just out of touch with what is going on in the world today.

Rand may actually have a point
Aircraft Carriers, Jets, Tanks, in todays world, may be obsolete in the fight against terrorists.

The terrorists are not our only adversary: the Russians are rattling their saber, as are the Chinese.

What will the terrorists do next, in America?

Wait til they machine gun school buses filled with kids: the only response We The People will then accept will be a nuclear one, to forever wipe out these religious loons.

Quote: terapined

I don't think you should go down the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson path blaming an American or Americans for terrorist acts.

what is going on in the world now days has nothing to with Americans as people. It's a lack of leadership. Think of an army where solders disobey officers' orders. The world turns into an anarchy.

I will never understand what leads someone to make those hoss I've decisions. It is just terrible. My cousin moved to Paris for work 10 years ago. Have not heard from him today. Hope all is well.

Quote: Dicenor33

what is going on in the world now days has nothing to with Americans as people. It's a lack of leadership. Think of an army where solders disobey officers' orders. The world turns into an anarchy.

Small cells attacking soft targets. What kind of leadership prevents that?

Quote: MrV

Wait til they machine gun school buses filled with kids: the only response We The People will then accept will be a nuclear one, to forever wipe out these religious loons.

We The People were once the natives around the world who got screwed over, and under the same pretense, by the White Man.

Lack of leadership?

It's a religious war, pure and simple: a jihad.

I'd hoped Modern Man had outgrown such antediluvian notions, but alas I was wrong.

Lets not let extremists of any religion represent regular worshippers of any religion

Quote: MrV

It's a religious war, pure and simple: a jihad.

I do think western nations get used to the idea that most casualties occur in far greater numbers on the other side, and are taken aback whenever we do get hit. But we're still bound to get hit sooner or later.

Exactly.

They want a war.

Now, the question: what must we do to destroy them and the threat they pose to our way of life?

More importantly, ask: do we have the political will to do that which must be done?

Many innocents will die,but we didn't start this craziness, it was imposed upon us by fervent nutcases.

I've never seen Geraldo so concerned. He's
talking to his daughter who was in the
soccer stadium, and he's going to Paris
to pick her up tomorrow. We could see
the stress he was under.

Quote: GWAE

I will never understand what leads someone to make those hoss I've decisions. It is just terrible. My cousin moved to Paris for work 10 years ago. Have not heard from him today. Hope all is well.

My thoughts are with you and your cousin

Quote: MidwestAP

My thoughts are with you and your cousin

Thank you, just heard from him. He is actually in Belgium today and this weekend on business so he is actually away from the craziness.

If not now, when?

It is time to go on a coordinated attack and execute it as viciously as possible against all known targets while intelligence develops new targets from the chatter that will happen once they are under a withering attack. It is us versus them--they want to terrorize us; we have the choice of sitting around being terrorized of our own shadows or being bold in our counter attack.

They are harder to fine that other fighters because they hide among us quietly. Make no mistake--they will strike. If they try 100 times and succeed once, they are successful. If we hear about and stop 99 possible attacks and don't hear about one that then takes place, they are successful. The only way to take care of them is to send them to meet their maker before they send us to meet ours.

This is a religious war between an evil, perverted group of religious zealots and the rest of us. All of the rest of us. They will not just kill one group or the other; they want to kill everyone who opposes them.

It isn't the right time for us to allow thousands of Syrian refuges into the country, for starters. Give them support elsewhere where practical but don't bring them in.

Quote: MrV

Exactly.

They want a war.

Now, the question: what must we do to destroy them and the threat they pose to our way of life?

More importantly, ask: do we have the political will to do that which must be done?

The answer to the first question is, "First of all, find them. Unfortunately, they're not all in one place, and the fact that they're capable of recruiting people indicates that they're not going to be in any particular place for anybody to hit."

The answer to the second question is, "That depends on 'that which must be done.' " What do you recommend? Question everybody? Don't make the assumption that only people who "look Muslim" are in ISIS, so the adage of "if there's a pit bull attack, you don't round up the poodles" does not apply. In fact, blaming Islam in general would do far more harm than good, so something along the lines of closing the mosques is a mistake waiting to happen.

If this is the "JV" team, imagine what the real team could do.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

The answer to the first question is, "First of all, find them. Unfortunately, they're not all in one place, and the fact that they're capable of recruiting people indicates that they're not going to be in any particular place for anybody to hit."

Maybe so. Maybe not. But Raqqa would be an excellent place to start.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

The answer to the second question is, "That depends on 'that which must be done.' " What do you recommend? Question everybody? Don't make the assumption that only people who "look Muslim" are in ISIS, so the adage of "if there's a pit bull attack, you don't round up the poodles" does not apply. In fact, blaming Islam in general would do far more harm than good, so something along the lines of closing the mosques is a mistake waiting to happen.

Start with closing the borders. Don't admit tens of thousands of unidentifiable military-age men. And enforce the visa laws. Ha!

I've thought deeply about this. The great majority of refugees that come are going to be quite grateful to have the availability of a new way of life, and they will be vetted and tracked. I am not concerned about them. Reports said that the gunmen spoke French, so they weren't new refugees from Syria.

And clearly through an Iraq war, most ISIS recruits are young people who are brainwashed to believe that all infidels must be destroyed vis a vis certain verses in the Qaran. Like the Bible, the Qaran has to be taken in context, and one could argue that the extremist Christian acts of the dark ages were biblically inspired. Still, there exists today a large group of people who believe that all non-Muslims are to be extinguished. It is this population that needs to be controlled, tracked, and punished.

Now, of course, if we are to follow out Judeo-Christian ways, then we have to wait until a crime is to be committed or planned before lives are taken.

And we (here too in Canada) value our freedom. We don't want a police state nor (I would argue) do we want people with guns everywhere as the ancilliary deaths caused by gun accidents, crimes of passion, anger, mental illness, etc would far outnumber (as they do today) those defended by terrorist attacks.

And we also, in general, have compassion towards those in nations who are desperate, which is why there are refugee programs that have been in place for a long time in most western nations around the world. The fact that we are taking in Syrian refugees is no different than the refugees we've been taking in before. The US and Canada have been taking in refugees from Iraq, Somalia, and other strict Muslim countries for a long time, with no deleterious effects from these refugees in particular. I challenge people to find a terrorist attack on home soils that were a result of a refugee visa.

So, what's the solution?
1. End the refugee programs. That isn't the problem and just promotes xenophobia.

2. Kill and oppress them all. That isn't possible and will generate another generation of disenfranchised people willing to take the extreme Muslim words and become violent. I think the evidence of that is pretty clear.

3. Mollification: A great way to convert extremist Muslims into peaceful ones is to show them that there is a better way and give them opportunities. By showing that peace and freedom is the better way, it is a chance to convert those with hardened minds into harmless contributors to society.

In the case of Paris, what you probably have is a large group of disenfranchised extremists with nothing better to do but to die.

There is no simple solution here. However, I believe that terrorist attacks are inevitable as the cost of having a free society, and as long as there is a group of people that hate us we will be forced to endure.

As for the Obama blame, this was an attack on French soil and has nothing to do with the current administration.

Focus on the similarities; and the differences will look after themselves.

Other than that, why is it that people who likely don't have their own lives really sorted out want to solve the problems of the world thousands of miles away? Is Obama going to read this stuff? I doubt that even any casinos do. Not really.

Quote: boymimbo

I've thought deeply about this.

... As for the Obama blame, this was an attack on French soil and has nothing to do with the current administration.

As I typed, people went on with this stuff.

Quote: boymimbo

In the case of Paris, what you probably have is a large group of disenfranchised extremists with nothing better to do but to die.

I believe post Indian wars, the social welfare implemented towards Native Americans did a lot to destroy their initiative.

Making sure people have just enough to sit on a couch all day might even destroy this sort of extremism. Too much, and you get idle rich extremists dreamers like bin Laden. Too little, and it breeds social unrest and movement to the streets..

(hey, there aren't really any great ideas anyway. I have no idea other than what people have suggested so far.)

Quote: boymimbo

The great majority of refugees that come are going to be quite grateful to have the availability of a new way of life, and they will be vetted and tracked. I am not concerned about them. Reports said that the gunmen spoke French, so they weren't new refugees from Syria.

Just like the 9/11 hijackers.

Quote: boymimbo

There is no simple solution here. However, I believe that terrorist attacks are inevitable as the cost of having a free society, and as long as there is a group of people that hate us we will be forced to endure.

A significant segment of the American population does not subscribe to rolling over and being shot to death.

Convince them that Mohamed was no different than any other mortal man: shatter their faith and turn them into atheists.

Religion, bah: more trouble than it's worth.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Just like the 9/11 hijackers.
A significant segment of the American population does not subscribe to rolling over and being shot to death.

Of course no one *wants* to be shot. However, we are about 1,000 times to be killed in a gunshot shooting (be it accidental or murderous) than being killed in a terrorist attack. And the solution is not to arm everyone.

However, if I am going for a walk down by the Falls, I do not want to see an armament of soldiers protecting me. If I get offed by a terrorist madman, so be it. I'll take my chances.

Just like one might argue that the cost of the 2nd amendment are tens of thousands of deaths, guns on the streets, accidental shootings, crimes of passions, mental health gun shootings, etc is worth the freedom it provides, one might argue that our freedom allows for freedom of movement and freedom of religion which unfortunately results in asymmetric warfare (aka terrorism) due to extremist elements being allowed to exist in our society or by our temporary visitors.

Quote:

Of course no one *wants* to be shot. However, we are about 1,000 times to be killed in a gunshot shooting (be it accidental or murderous) than being killed in a terrorist attack. And the solution is not to arm everyone.

Paris has very strict gun control laws, which leads to an essentially unarmed populace.

Gee, I have to wonder if the last thought of any of the Parisian terrorist victims, as they were about to be mowed down, was "I wish I'd had a gun!"

They'll take MY gun out of my cold, dead hands.

Quote: MrV

Paris has very strict gun control laws, which leads to an essentially unarmed populace. Gee, I have to wonder if the last thought of any of the Parisian terrorist victims, as they were about to be mowed down, was "I wish I'd had a gun!" They'll take MY gun out of my cold, dead hands.

Ignoring the inapplicability of Canadian statistics, it has to be noted that in the estimated 10 to 15 minutes that it took the Paris police to enter the sold-out concert hall, more than 100 victims were individually shot to death.

Quote: EvenBob

The guy they arrested is Syrian, recruited
by Isis. Germany is now full of Syrians.
EU will never be the same again.

Not to be crass or insensitive, but I believe the 4th Reich will focus on the Muslims

I sincerely doubt Parisians even thought about having a gun.

All the terrorists would have done was arrange a different style of attack with bulletproof vests, headgear, etc, and would have used more explosive vehicles. Inotherwords different tactics to achieve the same effect. Cars and an explosive vehicles were used in this attack.

Quote: boymimbo

I sincerely doubt Parisians even thought about having a gun. All the terrorists would have done was arrange a different style of attack with bulletproof vests, headgear, etc, and would have used more explosive vehicles. Inotherwords different tactics to achieve the same effect. Cars and an explosive vehicles were used in this attack.

That's giving the extremists a bit too much credit. They haven't fully absorbed their lessons from Garland, TX, -- YET!

This is what happens when you spend decades giving away your country and culture to these creatures.

You can get arrested for criticizing Islam in France and the UK.

Marie La Pen

French Police Officer suspended for criticizing ISIS.

Twitter and Facebook users arrested in the UK for criticizing Muslims

They tried to pass a similar law recently in Quebec.

Bill 59

The Bill will eventually succeed, because Muslims are the fastest growing population in Canada.

Quote: Tanko

This is what happens when you spend decades giving away your country and culture to these creatures.

You can get arrested for criticizing Islam in France and the UK.

Marie La Pen

French Police Officer suspended for criticizing ISIS.

Twitter and Facebook users arrested in the UK for criticizing Muslims

They tried to pass a similar law recently in Quebec.

Bill 59

The Bill will eventually succeed, because Muslims are the fastest growing population in Canada.

I have known many Muslims in my lifetime and none of them agree with what is happening nor do they want Sharia law to replace the law of the country - however, they might now be the silent minority

Quote: Tanko

This is what happens when you spend decades giving away your country and culture to these creatures.

You can get arrested for criticizing Islam in France and the UK.

Marie La Pen

French Police Officer suspended for criticizing ISIS.

Twitter and Facebook users arrested in the UK for criticizing Muslims

They tried to pass a similar law recently in Quebec.

Bill 59

The Bill will eventually succeed, because Muslims are the fastest growing population in Canada.

The problem is that radical muslims don't represent your average muslim
Would you have a problem with a policeman setting up a facebook or twitter account complaining that all Christians protest at US soldier funerals. (Westboro Baptist Church)

before I was allowed to view the following image by the artist Banksy, I had to click on a box on Twitter stating that I understood I was about to view "sensitive material"

REALLY?!?!?!? I am outraged that this is deemed sensitive material

To be clear, Bill 59 is

Quote: Bill 59 text

"1. The purpose of this Act is to establish measures for preventing and combatting hate speech and speech inciting violence.
The Act applies to hate speech and speech inciting violence that are engaged in or disseminated publicly and that target a group of people sharing a characteristic identified as prohibited grounds for discrimination under section 10 of the Charter of human rights and freedoms (chapter C-12).
CHAPTER II: PROHIBITIONs

2. Engaging in or disseminating the types of speech described in section 1 is prohibited. Acting in such a manner as to cause such types of speech to be engaged in or disseminated is also prohibited. However, the purpose of these prohibitions is not to limit the dissemination of such speech intended to legitimately inform the public."

Penalty: $1,000 - $10,000 fine.

I suspect borderline cases would get appealed to the SCC and the Quebec Law would have no meaning. The 2nd sentence in chapter 2 bothers me greatly, and I am in full support of the other chapters. This law applies to everyone and protects everyone in a "protected group", which includes all religions.

Muslim Extremists are purported to be 7% of the Muslim population according to many correlated polls.

regulating speech SMH

Just watched a local tv studio broadcast with Syrian(non-religious in his own words) guest analyst and Q&A from viewers.

One of the viewers said he was living among Muslims for a long time and he knows very well how they feel and think about the extremists.
He said, "The Muslims are told by Muhammad himself in the Quran they need to islamize everyone, all the world. By fire and sword if they have to. They are going to try and do this in Europe, no doubt about that. Their end goal is to erase the Christianity and expand their religion and their people on all places where there are infidels. Ask your guest analyst to state that OBL is a terrorist and a murderer. Ask him to say that ISIS are terrorists and murderers. He wont do that. He will twist and bend and dodge, but he will never say those words."

Then the analyst went on a tirade explaining how wrong it is to assume every Muslim out there is a terrorist etc etc and was interrupted like ten times by the viewer repeating "Say that ISIS are terrorists and murderer,say OBL is terrorist and a murderer!", and the analyst indeed didn't do that :). He smooth talked and twisted, but never said those words, never admitted.

Now, I'm all for closing all borders including those of my own country, being an outer border of the EU and stop all refugees staying in Turkey. There is no war in Turkey. They can safely stay there. Why will they legally or illegally cross borders and head over to Germany, France, Switzerland etc? They can head over to other Muslim countries, they are much closer culturally to those, why wouldn't they do that? Because they won't let them would they?

I understand there are millions innocent people suffering in Syria and other places, but why are they invading Europe, giving the perfect cover for infiltrating radicals to get there as well in the process? Head over to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq etc.

Or better yet, unite, arm yourselves and fight back the ISIS fighters. Russia will be more than happy to provide arms. Free your own country from those radicals. Don't flee, fight. But it's easier to flee, right? Who is to save you, other countries? Why? Ask for help, but don't run away and create the perfect environment for radicals to spread their poisonous believes out through the ever helpful and gullible Europe.

Quote: boymimbo

To be clear, Bill 59 is


Penalty: $1,000 - $10,000 fine.

I suspect borderline cases would get appealed to the SCC and the Quebec Law would have no meaning. The 2nd sentence in chapter 2 bothers me greatly, and I am in full support of the other chapters. This law applies to everyone and protects everyone in a "protected group", which includes all religions.

To be clear,

The Bill was a sham designed solely to protect Islam.

Brazau and Blatchford were jailed nine months and 12 months respectively, for handing out flyers and speaking out against Islam.

When the local Muslim newspaper Meshwar, in southern Ontario, published an article supporting the slaughter of Rabbis, they were given a free pass.

Quote:

Muslim Extremists are purported to be 7% of the Muslim population according to many correlated polls.

Then you have at least 70,000 Muslim extremists in Canada.

Quote: rawtuff

Now, I'm all for closing all borders including those of my own country, being an outer border of the EU and stop all refugees staying in Turkey. There is no war in Turkey. They can safely stay there. Why will they legally or illegally cross borders and head over to Germany, France, Switzerland etc? They can head over to other Muslim countries, they are much closer culturally to those, why wouldn't they do that? Because they won't let them would they?

I understand there are millions innocent people suffering in Syria and other places, but why are they invading Europe, giving the perfect cover for infiltrating radicals to get there as well in the process? Head over to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq etc.

Or better yet, unite, arm yourselves and fight back the ISIS fighters. Russia will be more than happy to provide arms. Free your own country from those radicals. Don't flee, fight. But it's easier to flee, right? Who is to save you, other countries? Why? Ask for help, but don't run away and create the perfect environment for radicals to spread their poisonous believes out through the ever helpful and gullible Europe.

First culture is not the important issue when fleeing, but access points. Also religion is more important than culture and it is wrong to believe that all Muslims practice the same religion, go back a few hundred years, the age the Middle East seems to stuck in, and you didn't see different Christian groups fleeing to other groups territory, instead you had wars called the Thirty Year War and the Hundred Year War, just look at Ireland a few decades ago. By the way Americans who are armed also believe in flight, ever heard of white flight, aka. the move to the suburbs.

All of the actions that have been taken so far to "not offend" those who would kill us have had zero impact on their desire to kill us. They won't ever have any impact on the group of Muslims who are part of the terrorist groups and their sympathizers. Those folks perversion of the religion will never allow them to accept us (us being EVERYONE, including Muslims) who doesn't follow their version of the faith. They want nothing less than everything, and they don't mind taking us back to the stone ages in many ways to get what they want.

If you are a woman, they will give you nothing remotely close to equal rights. You will cover yourself at all times, not drive, not have a say in anything, etc. How can any woman not live in fear of regression back to the times before women fought for their equality?

We have to attack them on all fronts--destroy encampments, root out cells in every country, and educate those who are tempted to join their ranks. It won't be easy and it will be costly. The longer we wait to do it, the more who will be dead and the more it will cost. The little turds that join them from this country and other relatively free societies somehow think they are going to get a special place for joining their ranks. Let's make that "special place" especially uncomfortable.

Peace is a great thing. The problem is that there will be no peace as long as Muslim Terrorists exist. This is the battle of our time.

Quote: RonC

All of the actions that have been taken so far to "not offend" those who would kill us have had zero impact on their desire to kill us. They won't ever have any impact on the group of Muslims who are part of the terrorist groups and their sympathizers. Those folks perversion of the religion will never allow them to accept us (us being EVERYONE, including Muslims) who doesn't follow their version of the faith. They want nothing less than everything, and they don't mind taking us back to the stone ages in many ways to get what they want.

If you are a woman, they will give you nothing remotely close to equal rights. You will cover yourself at all times, not drive, not have a say in anything, etc. How can any woman not live in fear of regression back to the times before women fought for their equality?

We have to attack them on all fronts--destroy encampments, root out cells in every country, and educate those who are tempted to join their ranks. It won't be easy and it will be costly. The longer we wait to do it, the more who will be dead and the more it will cost. The little turds that join them from this country and other relatively free societies somehow think they are going to get a special place for joining their ranks. Let's make that "special place" especially uncomfortable.

Peace is a great thing. The problem is that there will be no peace as long as Muslim Terrorists exist. This is the battle of our time.

Of course that's the underlying problem --- unfortunately Americas commander in chief refuses to acknowledge that fact. IMO President Obama is a covert Muslim and, he has said from the very beginning he's going to transform America -- wow! isn't that pretty much what the Muslim extremist want to do as well ?? Except they want to do it in a very deadly and violent fashion -- wow! talk about polarizing parallels. The current administration will continue to allow more and more Muslim refugees into America before he leaves office.

Quote: HeySlick

Of course that's the underlying problem --- unfortunately Americas commander in chief refuses to acknowledge that fact. IMO President Obama is a covert Muslim and, he has said from the very beginning he's going to transform America -- wow! isn't that pretty much what the Muslim extremist want to do as well ?? Except they want to do it in a very deadly and violent fashion -- wow! talk about polarizing parallels. The current administration will continue to allow more and more Muslim refugees into America before he leaves office.

I frequently hear the allegation that president Obama is a covert Muslim or a Muslim sympathizer; I don't agree in the way it is presented because even if he favored Muslims I just don't think there is any part of him that favors Muslim Extremists Terrorists. Being a Muslim or sympathizing with Muslims as a whole is not the issue and, in my opinion, it distracts from what should be obvious to everyone at this point:

President Obama has failed miserably at foreign policy. He is inept to the point of being incapable of actual being Commander in Chief. If he was a lower ranking person, his boss would fire him for the loss of confidence in his ability to command in the vital are of foreign policy. His chosen advisors have not gotten the job done for him and he continues to muck things up.

These folks are not the JV and, if they perhaps were when he said that, they are now the Varsity. They are not "contained" or "under control" or anything of the sort. Closing Gitmo won't make anything better. Giving in to them won't make things better. Negotiating with them will not make anything better. These people are committed enough to their cause to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up. We aren't committed enough to best them at this point.

It is time to stop making excuses for his inept performance. It is time for him to "get it"...

...and no, we should not allow any immigration from Syria or anywhere else until we have a vetting program in place to screen every single refugee and make sure we at least have an idea who we are letting in. Our borders need to be secured--not closed to everyone, but secured--so we know who is getting in. If people can get in four or five times after being deported, we have a huge problem.

Leadership isn't just announcing that we have it under control--it IS having control. Did the President not learn from the whole "Mission Accomplished" fiasco that happened to the last President? Apparently not.

Quote: terapined

The problem is that radical muslims don't represent your average muslim
Would you have a problem with a policeman setting up a facebook or twitter account complaining that all Christians protest at US soldier funerals. (Westboro Baptist Church)

Reiterating a prior response because the same invalid comparison is being restated: It is deceitful to compare a handful of known shouting protesters to series of handfuls of unknown mass murderers.

Quote: boymimbo

Reports said that the gunmen spoke French, so they weren't new refugees from Syria.

Those anonymous "reports" were wrong. The stadium bomber was carrying a Syrian passport. And about half the other terrorists spoke Flemish. And all, presumably, spoke Arabic, at least to the extent that they completely flummoxed the vaunted French intelligence agencies, as well as our own overly intrusive N.S.A.

We can kill them all now, or kill them all later. It's just a matter of the magnitude of the atrocities were willing to tolerate.

Or we can depend on the the boymimbos of this world to write them to death.