What SHOULD the cost to gamble be?
August 3rd, 2010 at 1:50:32 AM
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If we were to simply select the 1950s as a baseline, what should the cost to gamble be? What should table minimums be if we adjust for inflation?
In the fifties, there were "bird games". A term derived from the quarters that were in use on craps tables.
With everyone wanting five and ten dollar minimums on their tables these days, I'd just wonder what is a reasonable figure for today? Are these people who gripe about not getting a five dollar craps table on a Saturday night or a five dollar blackjack table on a Saturday night being reasonable? Is there any historical data for time at a slot machine from the fifties? Are today's machines a bargain or an even worse rip-off when inflation is factored in?
In the fifties, there were "bird games". A term derived from the quarters that were in use on craps tables.
With everyone wanting five and ten dollar minimums on their tables these days, I'd just wonder what is a reasonable figure for today? Are these people who gripe about not getting a five dollar craps table on a Saturday night or a five dollar blackjack table on a Saturday night being reasonable? Is there any historical data for time at a slot machine from the fifties? Are today's machines a bargain or an even worse rip-off when inflation is factored in?
August 3rd, 2010 at 2:59:08 AM
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I'm thinking today you just have to figure on a $10 craps table minimum, anytime you see less than that it's a sure sign of some stiff competition, or wee hours of the morning or something. And it will be more and more so.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:10:12 AM
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Oh, I quite agree: Your statement is an accurate description of the current situation. I was thinking more along the lines of is a ten dollar table reasonable if we take a 1950s figure and adjust for inflation? Are those ten dollar players of today getting a real bargain or getting ripped off?Quote: odiousgambitI'm thinking today you just have to figure on a $10 craps table minimum, anytime you see less than that it's a sure sign of some stiff competition, or wee hours of the morning or something. And it will be more and more so.
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:33:29 AM
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Well, according to a couple inflation calculators, a $5 bet nowadays is equivalent to a ~63-65¢ bet in the Fifties. Alternatively, a quarter back then is about $2 today.
OTOH, the market will charge what the market will bear, and the market seems to revolve around a general bare minimum of $5 (Vegas, interestingly, being the exception rather than the rule, in that there are places that have sub-$5 mins).
So.
OTOH, the market will charge what the market will bear, and the market seems to revolve around a general bare minimum of $5 (Vegas, interestingly, being the exception rather than the rule, in that there are places that have sub-$5 mins).
So.
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:56:51 AM
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Based on those figures it would seem that a ten dollar table is reasonable. Comps are more common now so I guess that makes a ten dollar table even more of a bargain that is generally thought.
It would seem therefore that those gamblers who seek five dollar craps or five dollar blackjack tables are really seeking out an economically unjustifiable bargain.
It would seem therefore that those gamblers who seek five dollar craps or five dollar blackjack tables are really seeking out an economically unjustifiable bargain.
August 3rd, 2010 at 4:44:35 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffIt would seem therefore that those gamblers who seek five dollar craps or five dollar blackjack tables are really seeking out an economically unjustifiable bargain.
Call me Mr. Hard Bargain then! [g] It's not up to me to be sure someone makes a profit, and if I seek out a bargain, maybe that means I should understand why, so far for example, Charles Town VW is responding to lack of dealers by jacking up the minimums on what tables they do have, and finding people are lining up anyway. The flip side of that coin!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 3rd, 2010 at 4:46:46 AM
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I truly think $10 minimums for most games is acceptable.
What I object to is the lack of adequate fractional betting units.
I want to be able to place my 6/8 in $1.50 units, and 5/9 in $1.25 units, and get paid in $1.75 units. Is that so unreasonable?
OK. Maybe it is unreasonable.
How about putting pink chips on the craps table? That way the 6/8 can be pressed in $3 units, and the 5/9 in $2.50 units, and get paid in $3.50 units.
Certainly THAT should be do-able!
What I object to is the lack of adequate fractional betting units.
I want to be able to place my 6/8 in $1.50 units, and 5/9 in $1.25 units, and get paid in $1.75 units. Is that so unreasonable?
OK. Maybe it is unreasonable.
How about putting pink chips on the craps table? That way the 6/8 can be pressed in $3 units, and the 5/9 in $2.50 units, and get paid in $3.50 units.
Certainly THAT should be do-able!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 3rd, 2010 at 6:14:35 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffIn the fifties, there were "bird games". A term derived from the quarters that were in use on craps tables.
Quote: wildqatWell, according to a couple inflation calculators, a $5 bet nowadays is equivalent to a ~63-65¢ bet in the Fifties. Alternatively, a quarter back then is about $2 today.
Quote: FleaStiffBased on those figures it would seem that a ten dollar table is reasonable. Comps are more common now so I guess that makes a ten dollar table even more of a bargain that is generally thought.
I was just a little confused about the logic in the sequence of these excepts from the earlier posts. If I just look at the first two excerpts, it seems like $2 is equivalent for today, but FleaStiff's conclusion is that $10 is appropriate.
I suppose that this is because the quarters in a bird game may not have indicated the basic table minimum and were just for prop bets (where $1 is acceptable on most tables today), suggesting that prop bets in today's game are actually priced lower than an inflation-adjusted bird game. The original post doesn't say what a minimum line bet was in the fifties. If a minimum pass bet was $1, then the cumulative inflation amount offered by wildqat suggests that something more like $8 would be the equivalent for today, again leading to the notion of a $10 game being appropriate.
I didn't play craps in the fifties, so I don't know what the typical table minimum for a pass bet was back then. Does anyone know? I won't ask whether you actually "remember". ;-)
I also have no idea what comps were like in the fifties, but from my experience, there's not much being comped today for a minimum bettor at a $5 or $10 table.
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:00:10 AM
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Quote: DocI also have no idea what comps were like in the fifties, but from my experience, there's not much being comped today for a minimum bettor at a $5 or $10 table.
While there may not be much being comped, I get regular offers for free and/or discounted room rates, and I'm only a weekend gambler, and for small stakes. Thus, the casino has to make that money up somewhere. Perhaps that's the real reason for the increased table minimums. The casino wants to get people into the city, and thus offer discounted/free airfares and discounted/free room rates.
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:05:15 AM
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You need to take a lot mroe than just inflation into account: supply, demmand (especially the nature of the clientele), competition, per capita GDP, average earnings, innovation, availability, and more. All such things change over time.
If you took the price of a top line TV set in the 50s and adjusted for inflation, what would you get? I'm guessing the answer would be a lot more money than you'd pay for a set of equivalent size today.
Table games have changed since the 50s. For one thing there are more games available today. And there's more competition from slots than there was back then. Not to mention new games like VP, which were inconceivable in the 50s.
If you took the price of a top line TV set in the 50s and adjusted for inflation, what would you get? I'm guessing the answer would be a lot more money than you'd pay for a set of equivalent size today.
Table games have changed since the 50s. For one thing there are more games available today. And there's more competition from slots than there was back then. Not to mention new games like VP, which were inconceivable in the 50s.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:11:13 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffBased on those figures it would seem that a ten dollar table is reasonable. Comps are more common now so I guess that makes a ten dollar table even more of a bargain that is generally thought.
It would seem therefore that those gamblers who seek five dollar craps or five dollar blackjack tables are really seeking out an economically unjustifiable bargain.
Help a dumb vp player out. How in the world does a table game player get comped anything? I ask because if there's a couple PB's and there's 30 players at multiple tables, what system is used to track average bets etc.? How can they possibly keep track of what's really going on? Do they simply make a bunch of guesses and leave it at that? And who enters the data into the tracking computer?
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:36:27 AM
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Well, here is how I have seen it done...someone else can add to or correct this.Quote: JerryLoganHelp a dumb vp player out. How in the world does a table game player get comped anything? ... How can they possibly keep track of what's really going on?
At a crap table, the box man generally is responsible. Increasingly, he has a terminal where he enters the player's card number and starting time. Many places he/she may still just make notes on a card that is eventually passed to the floor supervisor to enter in the computer. How accurately the boxman tracks each person's bets, how he aggregates the various bets, and which bets are counted are not completely clear. When a player colors up to leave, the box man logs him out (or makes notes on a card) with departure time and an estimated "average" bet.
For other games, the floor supervisor enters the data. Player's cards are typically left on the table in a rack by the dealer, in a position matching the seat. The supervisor records the player's arrival time and each buy-in and patrols the area noting his opinions as to average bet. When a player departs, the supervisor notes the card missing from the rack next time around the floor (or when notified of a color up) and records his evaluation of the action provided.
I personally fly so far below their radar that I get a minuscule number of points, just enough to acknowledge I was there and to keep the advertising mailers coming. I am not sure any of my comps (free/reduced room rates) are really better than those for someone who signs up for a card but never actually plays.
August 3rd, 2010 at 7:48:15 AM
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Quote: DocFor other games, the floor supervisor enters the data. Player's cards are typically left on the table in a rack by the dealer, in a position matching the seat. The supervisor records the player's arrival time and each buy-in and patrols the area noting his opinions as to average bet. When a player departs, the supervisor notes the card missing from the rack next time around the floor (or when notified of a color up) and records his evaluation of the action provided.
I can't say for all casinos, but the ones I've played at all returned my card after a few minutes.
Typically I hand my card to the dealer, who then yells in the direction of the pit "Player card!" A short time later the pit boss or some other person collects the card and takes it somewhere (I assume he swipes the card at a terminal). Eventually he comes back and gives me the card back.
This is so of Excalibur, Fremont, Fitzgerald's, Bally's and Bill's. For the record the games played were Pai Gow Poker, 3 Card Poker and Rapid Craps.
At all times, except Rapid Craps at Bill's, whoever took the card would make rounds of all tables and take notes while looking at the bets in front of each player. I assume in RC the machine reports the bets.
The future lies with RFID-enabled chips. Add a card reader at every seat (eventually, too), and the computers can track exact bets per play and extrapolate a per-hour rate. As yet this is a bit expensive. In the future RFID tags will be cheaper.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
August 3rd, 2010 at 8:15:21 AM
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Ditto.Quote: NareedI can't say for all casinos, but the ones I've played at all returned my card after a few minutes.Quote: DocPlayer's cards are typically left on the table in a rack by the dealer, in a position matching the seat.
But I think Doc was referring to the item that the system prints out after your card is swiped. The rating ledger 'sheet' is printed on heavy paper. Although its larger, it has about the same feel and stiffness of an index card.
THAT'S the card that is left in the rack near the dealer.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 3rd, 2010 at 9:42:15 AM
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Actually, Nareed interpreted my comment correctly, and it seems my experience at the card tables is just out of date.
I now stick almost exclusively to craps, but when I was playing blackjack more often, my player's card itself was left in the rack until I left the table. I know that was the case, because there were several times that I forgot to take the card when I left (inattention due to distressed emotional state upon wipeout) and had to go back for it. I know this was the practice in a number of casinos, but they have probably updated the card game tracking methods. Thanks for the update/correction. It has been a very long time since I have played anything other than these two games, so I can't comment on the other table games.
I don't think RFID chips will be very useful on the crap table. The dealers have enough trouble keeping up with whose chips are whose; I doubt an RFID system would work.
I did see a nice use of RFID chips at the roulette tables at the Rio last January. The various chips of different colors for different players (true chips in this case, not the casino checks we all call chips) have RFID tags that they use to automatically sort and stack the losing chips after sweeping them from the table after a roll. This is much faster than the old method of having the dealer or an assistant dealer manually sorting the losing chips each roll at a crowded table. I don't play the game any more, but I watched this aspect of the technology for a while and briefly spoke with a supervisor about it.
I now stick almost exclusively to craps, but when I was playing blackjack more often, my player's card itself was left in the rack until I left the table. I know that was the case, because there were several times that I forgot to take the card when I left (inattention due to distressed emotional state upon wipeout) and had to go back for it. I know this was the practice in a number of casinos, but they have probably updated the card game tracking methods. Thanks for the update/correction. It has been a very long time since I have played anything other than these two games, so I can't comment on the other table games.
I don't think RFID chips will be very useful on the crap table. The dealers have enough trouble keeping up with whose chips are whose; I doubt an RFID system would work.
I did see a nice use of RFID chips at the roulette tables at the Rio last January. The various chips of different colors for different players (true chips in this case, not the casino checks we all call chips) have RFID tags that they use to automatically sort and stack the losing chips after sweeping them from the table after a roll. This is much faster than the old method of having the dealer or an assistant dealer manually sorting the losing chips each roll at a crowded table. I don't play the game any more, but I watched this aspect of the technology for a while and briefly spoke with a supervisor about it.
August 3rd, 2010 at 9:57:29 AM
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Quote: DocI don't think RFID chips will be very useful on the crap table. The dealers have enough trouble keeping up with whose chips are whose; I doubt an RFID system would work.
Speaking of this, why don't craps tables use different color chips per player the way they do in roulette?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
August 3rd, 2010 at 10:03:00 AM
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They track your arrival time (which is actually your card swipe time) your buy in or an estimate of your stack if you arrived with cheques, an estimate of your average bet (which I try to sweeten by making a big bet right away and a bet for the dealers right away). Floorman does the work when he can get around to it. I overheard one floorman talking about me to his relief or to his supervisor as to how much I had arrived with but I never actually ask them what they've rated me at.Quote: JerryLoganHow in the world does a table game player get comped anything?
August 3rd, 2010 at 10:26:11 AM
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That uses RFID? I've seen those sorters for a few years now, and I always assumed that it was an electric eye, detecting the color. The machine does occasionally get it wrong.Quote: DocI did see a nice use of RFID chips at the roulette tables at the Rio last January. The various chips of different colors for different players (true chips in this case, not the casino checks we all call chips) have RFID tags that they use to automatically sort and stack the losing chips after sweeping them from the table after a roll.
Several reasons.Quote: NareedSpeaking of this, why don't craps tables use different color chips per player the way they do in roulette?
1 - In roulette, a player may make many bets, but they all have the same betting unit. Not so in craps.
2 - In roulette, there isn't enough room for multiple stacks on each inside betting position, so some other system had to be created. In craps, there is plenty of room, and with very little effort, it's easy to learn the bet position system.
3 - In roulette, after every spin, almost all the bets are raked as losers, leaving just a couple bets to pay, and plenty of empty space to seperate the colors to figure things out. In craps, usually all the bets remain in place, so having different colors and stacking them would be counter-productive to a speedy payout.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 3rd, 2010 at 10:29:55 AM
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In roulette, each of a player's chips has the same value. The default is usually $1 (at least in the low-roller establishments I visit), but a player can request a higher value per chip at buy-in, and the dealer notes the actual value for that player. I think they usually do this by placing a chip of that marked value (a check or cheque) on the house stack of that color of roulette chips. A roulette player makes wagers of different amounts by using multiple chips, but selecting a higher value for an individual chip limits the flexibility in bet size.Quote: NareedSpeaking of this, why don't craps tables use different color chips per player the way they do in roulette?
At the crap table, players regularly make numerous bets in a wide range of amounts, so each player needs to have chips of multiple values.
Edit: Ooops! DJ beat me to the draw again, and in greater detail.
August 3rd, 2010 at 10:35:37 AM
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I watched for a while and made a guess that it was RFID. January was the first time I had seen it, since I don't normally pay attention to the roulette tables any more. After watching a while, I spoke with the supervisor who confirmed it was RFID. I suppose he could have been lying, mistaken, or just putting me on. He did say they had been using it for several years.Quote: DJTeddyBearThat uses RFID? I've seen those sorters for a few years now, and I always assumed that it was an electric eye, detecting the color. The machine does occasionally get it wrong.
August 3rd, 2010 at 11:06:43 AM
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Quote: JerryLoganHelp a dumb vp player out. How in the world does a table game player get comped anything? I ask because if there's a couple PB's and there's 30 players at multiple tables, what system is used to track average bets etc.? How can they possibly keep track of what's really going on? Do they simply make a bunch of guesses and leave it at that? And who enters the data into the tracking computer?
If you're the average guy, your first bet which most likely will be your smallest bet will be recorded. After that your high bets will be totally ignored unless of course they're too high. Hmmm...
If you are an attractive female in revealing clothing, look for male floors and you'll do just fine.
August 3rd, 2010 at 2:55:01 PM
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RFID chips are relatively new and I understand quite expensive. I think the device was simply an automatic mucker so that the roulette dealer did not have to have someone mucking chips for him at busy times. Many casino employees would simply agree with whatever technology you suggest is being employed so as to avoid an extended discussion or revelation of what is actually being employed. From time to time dealers enjoy telling players about the midget inside a machine who is doing the shuffling of the discards.Quote: DocHe did say they had been using it for several years.
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:04:43 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffRFID chips are relatively new and I understand quite expensive.
I think they've been around since 2003 or so. As most technology, they've dropped in price substantially since they were introduced. Some casinos do use RFID-tagged chips.
Quote:Many casino employees would simply agree with whatever technology you suggest is being employed so as to avoid an extended discussion or revelation of what is actually being employed.
Or they don't even know to begin with. Either what's used or what RFID is.
Some years back, while I was still in the garment business, one customer asked all suppliers to incorporate the radio anti-theft tags into all garments. They held brief, simple seminars to explain what the tags did and how to place them in clothing.
For some reason someone brought up RFID tags, whereupon the customer's rep said "These are RFID." I had to cough really hard to cover a sudden laughing fit.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:08:42 PM
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FleaStiff: I think you may indeed be correct. A quick search revealed that ShuffleMaster makes a roulette chip sorter that is color based (maximum of 10 colors simultaneously in use), and that would be a better explanation for sorting errors, caused perhaps by such things as dirty chips. After six months, I don't accurately remember the details of the conversation with the Rio floor supervisor. I left thinking that he had said they used RFID tags, but I may actually have suggested that technology with him giving (a likely erroneous) confirmation.
August 3rd, 2010 at 3:40:22 PM
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Yes, the future does lie with RFID chips and yes the casinos will give every reason under the Vegas sun to convince the player that this is the greatest thing since the free buffet. These chips can be used for anything from "skills checks" to card counting detection in blackjack as well as cutting down on dealer theft.
When used in surveillance systems, such as MindPlay, every bet can be tracked along with the count at the time of the bet. Dealers would think twice about pocketing chips if sensors were installed in their break rooms, locker rooms, etc. If and when the cost of these systems comes down they will probably become more common.
When used in surveillance systems, such as MindPlay, every bet can be tracked along with the count at the time of the bet. Dealers would think twice about pocketing chips if sensors were installed in their break rooms, locker rooms, etc. If and when the cost of these systems comes down they will probably become more common.
August 14th, 2010 at 3:03:15 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffIf we were to simply select the 1950s as a baseline, what should the cost to gamble be? What should table minimums be if we adjust for inflation?
In the fifties, there were "bird games". A term derived from the quarters that were in use on craps tables.
With everyone wanting five and ten dollar minimums on their tables these days, I'd just wonder what is a reasonable figure for today? Are these people who gripe about not getting a five dollar craps table on a Saturday night or a five dollar blackjack table on a Saturday night being reasonable? Is there any historical data for time at a slot machine from the fifties? Are today's machines a bargain or an even worse rip-off when inflation is factored in?
If we look at some of the menus from the Free Lunch that was available in bars around the turn of the century, it would seem that the casinos should be giving away their buffets for free. (Yeah, I know! I know! There ain't no such thing as a free lunch).
It also seems to me that five dollar or even ten dollar blackjack is LOW.
Now we all know that the Free Lunch was an assemblage of very salty foods which of course made the partaker of the lunch want to drink more beer. We also know that the free lunches at anterooms to bordellos were no more free than any other offering available there. And the term "Bum's Rush" was applied to anyone who entered a bar solely to eat the free lunch but not order a beer. So given inflation and the like, isn't it true that both the casinos and the players have become greedy bums?
August 14th, 2010 at 6:32:32 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearThat uses RFID? I've seen those sorters for a few years now, and I always assumed that it was an electric eye, detecting the color. The machine does occasionally get it wrong.
Several reasons.
1 - In roulette, a player may make many bets, but they all have the same betting unit. Not so in craps.
2 - In roulette, there isn't enough room for multiple stacks on each inside betting position, so some other system had to be created. In craps, there is plenty of room, and with very little effort, it's easy to learn the bet position system.
3 - In roulette, after every spin, almost all the bets are raked as losers, leaving just a couple bets to pay, and plenty of empty space to seperate the colors to figure things out. In craps, usually all the bets remain in place, so having different colors and stacking them would be counter-productive to a speedy payout.
To add to DJ (and Nareed):
Chip (as opposed to check) color is also an aid to the dealers, in making payouts to the appropriate players. On a craps table, they know whom to pay based on the spatial location of the bet. Line and field bets are all straight out from the player. An established come bet is laid in a position relative to the player's location. At roulette, players just plunk their chips down where they want (sometimes even on top of other players' chips). Chip color is the indicator of which bet should be paid to which player.
Old enough to repaint. Young enough to sell.
August 15th, 2010 at 3:22:01 AM
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Quote: benbakdoffWhen used in surveillance systems, such as MindPlay, every bet can be tracked along with the count at the time of the bet. Dealers would think twice about pocketing chips if sensors were installed in their break rooms, locker rooms, etc. If and when the cost of these systems comes down they will probably become more common.
MindPlay, as I recall, was a Blackjack table that automatically counted a deck just as a card-counting blackjack player would be doing. I thought after ruling the device legal, the gaming commission then reversed itself.
You are undoubtedly correct in stating than an RFID detector at a breakroom door would cause hesitancy in any filching dealer. I think the main advantage to the casino is in preventing late betting and in keeping an absolutely accurate count of chips at all times as they are moved from vault to cage to the various chip banks to tables etc.
January 21st, 2011 at 6:51:30 AM
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>I was just a little confused about the logic in the sequence of these excepts from the earlier posts.
>If I just look at the first two excerpts, it seems like $2 is equivalent for today, but FleaStiff's conclusion is that $10 is appropriate.
Yes: appropriate though not necessarily truly correlative.
> suppose that this is because the quarters in a bird game may not have indicated the basic table minimum
Precisely. Bird Games existed then, but I have the feeling that they were then the equivalent of our Three Dollar Tables.
>I didn't play craps in the fifties, so I don't know what the typical table minimum for a pass bet was back then.
> Does anyone know? I won't ask whether you actually "remember".
That is the problem. I would love to be able to view movies from that time to see what bets were made or review fiction from that time to see what an average person might bet. Today our craps games range from three dollar minimums all the way up to far, far higher amounts. I don't know if such a range was common in the fifties or not.
I have no idea how to account for Comps. Bars had a long tradition of comps... beer buybacks, the "free lunch", the Christmas hams, etc. Yet until Benny Binion did Vegas casinos ever comp anyone? I don't think they even gave free drinks away until Benny Binion came to town, but I simply do not know for sure.
So if anyone has an authoritative source on what an average guy would have been betting in the fifties, please let me know.
I have the "feeling" that our requests for low limit tables are really extreme and that we "should" have 25.00 minimum tables all over the place on a straight "adjust for inflation" basis. Its just that I would like to have some authoritative data.
>If I just look at the first two excerpts, it seems like $2 is equivalent for today, but FleaStiff's conclusion is that $10 is appropriate.
Yes: appropriate though not necessarily truly correlative.
> suppose that this is because the quarters in a bird game may not have indicated the basic table minimum
Precisely. Bird Games existed then, but I have the feeling that they were then the equivalent of our Three Dollar Tables.
>I didn't play craps in the fifties, so I don't know what the typical table minimum for a pass bet was back then.
> Does anyone know? I won't ask whether you actually "remember".
That is the problem. I would love to be able to view movies from that time to see what bets were made or review fiction from that time to see what an average person might bet. Today our craps games range from three dollar minimums all the way up to far, far higher amounts. I don't know if such a range was common in the fifties or not.
I have no idea how to account for Comps. Bars had a long tradition of comps... beer buybacks, the "free lunch", the Christmas hams, etc. Yet until Benny Binion did Vegas casinos ever comp anyone? I don't think they even gave free drinks away until Benny Binion came to town, but I simply do not know for sure.
So if anyone has an authoritative source on what an average guy would have been betting in the fifties, please let me know.
I have the "feeling" that our requests for low limit tables are really extreme and that we "should" have 25.00 minimum tables all over the place on a straight "adjust for inflation" basis. Its just that I would like to have some authoritative data.
January 22nd, 2011 at 6:40:06 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitI'm thinking today you just have to figure on a $10 craps table minimum, anytime you see less than that it's a sure sign of some stiff competition, or wee hours of the morning or something. And it will be more and more so.
Perhaps in many Las Vegas casinos, but the tribal casinos in the Pacific NW offer lower limits, usually five dollars, sometimes three.
Most offer five times odds now, too.
"What, me worry?"
January 22nd, 2011 at 7:29:15 AM
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You guys should consider yourselves lucky, the typical minimum for baccarat and most other table games in all major Macau casinos is around $75 with some $50 tables here and there (about what an average PRC citizen makes in a week!). Roulette can be played with HKD50 chips (US$7.50) if you bet on individual numbers. Slot machines and games with a huge house edge have low limits but that's about all we get.
January 22nd, 2011 at 7:43:42 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffSo if anyone has an authoritative source on what an average guy would have been betting in the fifties, please let me know.
I have the "feeling" that our requests for low limit tables are really extreme and that we "should" have 25.00 minimum tables all over the place on a straight "adjust for inflation" basis. Its just that I would like to have some authoritative data.
Thing is, it is more than just "adjust for inflation." The casino audience is a wider group than the 1950s. Back then only fairly well-off people went to Vegas. Families with kids-absolutely never. Today many, many people visit casinos. So the minimums will not keep with inflation.
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January 22nd, 2011 at 8:54:03 AM
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Quote: AZDuffmanThing is, it is more than just "adjust for inflation." The casino audience is a wider group than the 1950s. Back then only fairly well-off people went to Vegas. Families with kids-absolutely never. Today many, many people visit casinos. So the minimums will not keep with inflation.
That would really suggest decreasing the minimums.
While after a little play at decent stakes it's easy to forget what red and green even stand for, the fact is, as the popularity of "penny" machines and the number of low-stake seekers confirms, an average citizen has trouble coughing up $10 for a table game, and only just does $5. Not being enlightened with the knowledge of HA, EV, SD and BS, he has to consider the amount wagered to be lost or at least paid for a service, much like if he was in a convenience store. Using that thinking, $5 is a bottle of table wine, it's hard to evaluate the fun of playing a hand at the same value. Which is again why people go to the slots.
In that light, I think $5 is a reasonable minimum for serious establishments, but a strong case can be made for $2 as the introductory minimum. At 50 HPH, 6 players, average bet of 1.5x minimum (a stingy estimate) and 4-5% HA (considering it's for newbies), it's about $20 per hour, which appears to be past the breaking point for direct expenses such as dealer wage (likely newbie too, while at that) and space. Walmart-ish profit margins, but it certainly can work as self-sustainable, not just a lure for higher stakes.
Seeing how it worked in AC up to the 1990s and still remains in some places, even $1 tables are still around occasionally, I don't see why it wouldn't work now. The minimum wage only went up about 25% since the 90s, so $1 is questionable - that is, if people actually play $1 there and not increase their bet as they get more comfortable - but $2 can definitely work today, not everywhere, but it still has its place. Experienced players will have their own preferred bet range anyway.
The rapid rise over just a few years from $2 to $5 to $10 to $20-$25 and beyond is not motivated by hyperinflation or economic changes, it's just a push to phase low-limit tables out in favor of slot machines.
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January 22nd, 2011 at 12:35:51 PM
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The cost of gambling is all wrong. When I hit the tables, I always see open tables with dealers standing around at higher mins and nobody gambling there. Everyone is cramming into a low limit table. The cost of his/her salary is a sunk cost. Casinos make money either way, so if I ran a casino, I want every open table filled or at least every manned table filled. Lower mins would be better across the board. You make more money at a lower min table than a high limit table with no bodies.
And let's face it, there are high limit rooms. But all other tables cater to the masses. There are times when $10 BJ, Craps, etc are just too high. Ok for when times are busy, but when times are slow, drop the mins for crying out loud.
And let's face it, there are high limit rooms. But all other tables cater to the masses. There are times when $10 BJ, Craps, etc are just too high. Ok for when times are busy, but when times are slow, drop the mins for crying out loud.
January 22nd, 2011 at 4:47:39 PM
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I'm not too sure of that. I think the casinos think that one ten dollar player is worth far more than two five dollar players and so on. Its a bit like a dance floor in a night club. One couple gets up to dance and suddenly the dance floor becomes filled. Whims. An ebb and flow of people that is hard to predict. If a table is manned but there are no players, the casino wants to keep the low rollers at the more crowded low roller table rather than let the low rollers spread out. A higher roller may be more likely to approach the open table than one with a five dollar sign on it. The 25 dollar sign invites passersby who can afford it. The five dollar sign is thought to encourage the green chip player and black chip player to keep passing by.Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddyso if I ran a casino, I want every open table filled or at least every manned table filled. Lower mins would be better across the board. You make more money at a lower min table than a high limit table with no bodies.
Anyway, you've all given me pause for thought on this issue of a so-called "should" price for gambling. I at first thought that inflation would be the prime determinant of what was the "correct" price and we could end the quest for a five dollar table if it were shown to be about as reasonable a sum of money as expecting an automobile to have a running board and a bar to charge a nickle for a beer.
However, I do agree that inflation is not the sole determinant. It is true that the gambling industry has grown. Casinos are everywhere and all manner of people seem to gamble or atleast be exposed to it. So as the demographics change the price changes too.
I wonder if those little old ladies playing Bingo all day long or feeding Keno machines all day long are laughing at the men who wander around the casino looking for a five or ten dollar craps table. Keno can be played for only one dollar. And I don't think the price has changed much over the years.
Well, I wish I had some definitive information as to who played craps in the fifties and what the usual table limits were in those days. However, even with authoritative information on this issue, I now think that merely resorting to an inflation calculator would be improper.
January 22nd, 2011 at 5:33:10 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffand we could end the quest for a five dollar table if it were shown to be about as reasonable a sum of money as expecting an automobile to have a running board and a bar to charge a nickle for a beer.
All while some AC and even rare NV properties keep offering $2 and occasionally $1.
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January 23rd, 2011 at 7:36:42 AM
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I think that table games get more expensive because of pure economics. A $10 blackjack player at 1 percent at 60 hands an hour nets the casino $6. Multiply that by four players at the table and the casino's getting $24 / hour from the table. Pay the dealer his/her wage; pay surveillance, the pit boss, table games supervisors, and your profit's paltry. Then there's setup and takedown time too when the casino is making nothing.
Replace that blackjack table with six slot machines. You pay a slot attendant and a technical person maybe 1/30th of their salary to look at that bank of machines. If it's a nickel slot with a payback at 10 percent and you are playing say 20 credits on average, for 10 pulls a minute, you are putting through $600 / hour (20 x .05 x 10 x 60), and making $60/hour per machine when it's being played. That's a potential income of $360/hour. Even if the casino sees very limited action on these machines, say, only 2 machines gets played 8 hours a day, you are still pulling in on average $960 in a day from these machines, or about $40/hour. Not bad.
Replace that blackjack table with six slot machines. You pay a slot attendant and a technical person maybe 1/30th of their salary to look at that bank of machines. If it's a nickel slot with a payback at 10 percent and you are playing say 20 credits on average, for 10 pulls a minute, you are putting through $600 / hour (20 x .05 x 10 x 60), and making $60/hour per machine when it's being played. That's a potential income of $360/hour. Even if the casino sees very limited action on these machines, say, only 2 machines gets played 8 hours a day, you are still pulling in on average $960 in a day from these machines, or about $40/hour. Not bad.
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January 23rd, 2011 at 7:45:32 AM
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Quote: boymimboI think that table games get more expensive because of pure economics. A $10 blackjack player at 1 percent at 60 hands an hour nets the casino $6. Multiply that by four players at the table and the casino's getting $24 / hour from the table.
An average player does 2-3%, and the average wager is always above table minimum, even conservatively at least 1.5x-2x. Plus, lowest-limit tables tend to be packed.
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January 23rd, 2011 at 7:50:40 AM
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We're talking about entertainment dollars here. In a bad economy, the casinos don't only have to compete with movie theaters for your dollars but also with the grocery stores--you don't want to be blowing your milk money at the craps table. There's less to go around everywhere.
I've noticed they won't lower the price of hotel rooms at Disney World but will throw in free food and ticket packages. They keep the riffraff out of the nice hotels that way. So I guess casinos keep the table minimums at a level they feel their target customer will pay and add incentives (rooms, meals, tickets) to keep it affordable.
I've noticed they won't lower the price of hotel rooms at Disney World but will throw in free food and ticket packages. They keep the riffraff out of the nice hotels that way. So I guess casinos keep the table minimums at a level they feel their target customer will pay and add incentives (rooms, meals, tickets) to keep it affordable.
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
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January 23rd, 2011 at 10:08:25 AM
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Quote: P90An average player does 2-3%, and the average wager is always above table minimum, even conservatively at least 1.5x-2x. Plus, lowest-limit tables tend to be packed.
The way I see it: low-limit table, number of players, six, average bet, $10, skill level, playing at 2% disadvantage, 60 hands/hr, each play is betting $600/hr, and losing $12. Full table, worth $72/hr to the house. The dealer is paid $7/hr (if he's lucky). That leaves $65/hr to pay for wear and tear on the chairs, to keep the lights lit, and to replace the cards every couple of hours.
It's a great racket, and there's no way any competently run casino could possibly fail to not only make money, but to make gobs and gobs of it.
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January 23rd, 2011 at 10:49:17 AM
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Quote: P90All while some AC and even rare NV properties keep offering $2 and occasionally $1.
For those of you who didn't know, the Sahara here in LV has had a roomfull of $1/hand BJ by the NASCAR Café for a couple years, and all 10 tables are usually full with a waiting list.
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January 23rd, 2011 at 3:10:53 PM
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The $2 blackjack games I saw in Atlantic City were at Resorts and Trump Marina and they both had an ante of .25 cents per hand. That's not a good thing no matter how many hands per hour are dealt.
January 23rd, 2011 at 3:26:23 PM
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Yes. Slots are cash cows and never try to unionize or ask for medical benefits, but some mixture of Slots and Table Games makes for the expected casino ambiance and also takes care of the customary divergences between the spouses interests. A craps player might give his wife some money and say "here honey, go play slots" but he won't say "here honey, go play slots in some other casino".
Ofcourse the money made on slots is one reason the table game perhaps should be offered at low limits. Slots used to be the lowest thing on the totem pole with real gamblers utterly ignoring them. No longer. Now many Casino Managers come up from the Slots Department, not Table Games.
Ofcourse the money made on slots is one reason the table game perhaps should be offered at low limits. Slots used to be the lowest thing on the totem pole with real gamblers utterly ignoring them. No longer. Now many Casino Managers come up from the Slots Department, not Table Games.
January 24th, 2011 at 10:45:34 PM
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RFIDs are the wave of the future. You'll have software tracking counts, hands/win losses, and more importantly they will be tracking bet size. I have already seen it at a couple casinos, namely Casino Del Sol in Tuscon AZ. Each chip has an RFID built in and each table has a sensor under the betting circle. Before each hand is dealt the dealer hits a button by the shoe that logs the bets into the computer system. I was told that this calculated the bet size and averaged it automatically. Apparently it also kept track of inter-table chip movement so supervisors did not constantly have to count the rack. I do not think the system is particularly nefarious, just one way that technology is creeping into the game.
The system is horribly flawed though- The sensors have to be able to pick up chips that are several inches above them (stacks, etc) to be effective. That means their range is pretty good and can potentially pick up chips that are simply nearby and not actually bet. To test it I played for 4 hours with a stack of greens and blacks very close (3" or so) to the betting circle without being in it, mostly $5 and $10 hands inside the ring. Some dealers would say "sir you need to move your chips back if you are not playing them", but 80% did not care as long as it was clearly not being played. Did it work? At the end of the 4 hours I had $27.xx in my comp account to use on food or in-casino spending. I later asked a supervisor what my lifetime rating or average bet was- he replied that it was $75. So it worked, because my real lifetime average at this place was probably $10-15 on the high end across 100 hours.
The automatic system was clearly picking up chips that were not being played and giving me comps for them. I am sure the system has the ability for a supervisor to change the average bet if the figure is erroneous like that, but the ones here were too busy, stupid, or lazy to actually do it.
The system is horribly flawed though- The sensors have to be able to pick up chips that are several inches above them (stacks, etc) to be effective. That means their range is pretty good and can potentially pick up chips that are simply nearby and not actually bet. To test it I played for 4 hours with a stack of greens and blacks very close (3" or so) to the betting circle without being in it, mostly $5 and $10 hands inside the ring. Some dealers would say "sir you need to move your chips back if you are not playing them", but 80% did not care as long as it was clearly not being played. Did it work? At the end of the 4 hours I had $27.xx in my comp account to use on food or in-casino spending. I later asked a supervisor what my lifetime rating or average bet was- he replied that it was $75. So it worked, because my real lifetime average at this place was probably $10-15 on the high end across 100 hours.
The automatic system was clearly picking up chips that were not being played and giving me comps for them. I am sure the system has the ability for a supervisor to change the average bet if the figure is erroneous like that, but the ones here were too busy, stupid, or lazy to actually do it.
January 25th, 2011 at 12:00:18 AM
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People adding up the house's expected profit are largely forgetting player error. MKL may have thrown it in there but I once read that the average player was playing at a 2% disadvantage due to their own errors. That boosts what they expect. Add more tourists and visitors in places like strip casinos and you would expect player error to go up even more.
January 25th, 2011 at 9:51:39 AM
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I have a feeling that player error when sober is bad enough, when drunk it must be really profitable for the casinos.
Ofcourse I guess player error has always been around. Inflation or not. Demographic shift of not. People always THINK they are expert players.
Ofcourse I guess player error has always been around. Inflation or not. Demographic shift of not. People always THINK they are expert players.
June 15th, 2011 at 7:21:47 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffIf we were to simply select the 1950s as a baseline, what should the cost to gamble be? What should table minimums be if we adjust for inflation?
With everyone wanting five and ten dollar minimums on their tables these days, I'd just wonder what is a reasonable figure for today?
I at first thought that the answer to what was a reasonable minimum on a craps table would be a simple "dig in some obscure archives and once having learned what the situation was in 1950, plug in some numbers and see what the inflation calculator said, then round it off and voila, that was the answer.
Many of the posters here have shown me that it is not quite such a simple matter. The industry has changed in the interim, the capital invested has changed, the geography has changed and the demographics of the players has changed. So too have the alternative uses of time and money.
Yet a recent review of Arizona Charlie's (East) contained an incident wherein a the table minimum was raised from 3.00 to 5.00, all players immediately deserted the table and eventually the casino sent the dealers home at 10:00pm. Now I can not fathom a casino closing its craps table at what should be its busiest time. Oh sure, you can recall that Arizona Charlies is largely a slot parlor and that some games are maintained solely for maintaining the license or something but in reality whatever the casino's motivations for having that floor spaced devoted to a craps table rather than eighteen slot machines, once the craps table is there for any reason at all, it will bring in absolutely no money if it is closed and even the most idiotic pit boss in history knows that.
Now I don't know if the craps players all went to their RVs or went to other games or other casinos but I simply can not plumb the depths of the casino's reasoning. It is true that a 5.00 player is worth far more than 3.00 player but the casinos action did not result in their getting any five dollar players and they might as well have put up a sign saying Five-Hundred Dollar minimum action. If the casino cared about its players, they might have provided a shuttle to Club Fortune or the Jokers Wild in the nearby far reaches of Hendertucky.
I simply can not understand that Pit Boss who would close a table at the busiest time of night in a futile quest for some non-existent five dollar bettors. If the traffic will not bear it, why do the Pit Bosses insist on doing it? How much money was "lost" by having the table closed? How much player loyalty exists when the casino does that to them?
I think a five dollar table should be viewed as a bargain but clearly those in the area of Arizona Charlies (East) do not agree. Why though is the Pit Boss trying to cram a five dollar minimum down their throats when its clear the local market is for three dollar bettors.
June 15th, 2011 at 7:42:22 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffWhy though is the Pit Boss trying to cram a five dollar minimum down their throats when its clear the local market is for three dollar bettors.
The answer yesterday to basically the same question in another thread, apparently from someone with experience on the business side of the business, was that the casino makes more profit on higher minimums. That seems to ignore the stipulation in the question that the tables had no bettors.
June 15th, 2011 at 8:11:29 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffit will bring in absolutely no money if it is closed and even the most idiotic pit boss in history knows that.
Bringing in money doesn't necessarily mean making money though. If the expected hold on the table at 3 dollar minimums is not enough to cover the dealer wages then the rational thing would be to raise minimums or shut the table down. In economics this (when revenue is less than fixed costs) is known as the 'shutdown point'. Yes, you're still losing money by having the table there taking up space (opportunity cost) and having a nice building to house the table, but they would still be losing more by having to pay staff on top of it. A full table of 3 dollar bettors may prevent this (probably why the 3 dollars was offered in the first place, hoping to fill the table), but if there is only four or five players, maybe moving them up to 5 dollars or shutting down is the proper move.
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June 15th, 2011 at 9:05:10 AM
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Maybe it was a calculated gamble? The pit boss thought I can raise it to five, and possibly make more money, and if that doesn't work I'll send the dealers home and make (save) money on wage costs.
Boulder Highway has to be the most competitive gaming market in the country. The gamblers are by and large sharp (if not from knowledge then from experience), and like to make their dollar go far. There are at least six full-service casinos up and down that stretch, with a representative from each of the major locals' gaming groups, and a couple slot parlors and dumps like Longhorn and Skyline. It's even more competitive than downtown, because no tourist would ever go out to Boulder.
The thing is, I'm sure they still make money on craps even at low minimums. At Joker's Wild, at $1 with 10x odds, nobody plays just the pass at $1 with $10 odds. They have their bets all over the table. I would like to see the hold/drop numbers for that game. I expect it is extremely profitable, and Boyd can break in their dealers before they go to Sam's Town, et al.
Boulder Highway has to be the most competitive gaming market in the country. The gamblers are by and large sharp (if not from knowledge then from experience), and like to make their dollar go far. There are at least six full-service casinos up and down that stretch, with a representative from each of the major locals' gaming groups, and a couple slot parlors and dumps like Longhorn and Skyline. It's even more competitive than downtown, because no tourist would ever go out to Boulder.
The thing is, I'm sure they still make money on craps even at low minimums. At Joker's Wild, at $1 with 10x odds, nobody plays just the pass at $1 with $10 odds. They have their bets all over the table. I would like to see the hold/drop numbers for that game. I expect it is extremely profitable, and Boyd can break in their dealers before they go to Sam's Town, et al.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
