Tipping

Quote: HowMany

An orangutan could deal blackjack if it could be trained to say "insurance?"

They actually do in Boreno.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Yes, you're right in this example, but think of all the times the dealers stand at an empty table or a table with only a couple players. Taking that into account the dealer would make much less than $30,000 a year.

hahaha and not all will tip $2/hr. lol take that into consideration too

Quote: tommyngo215

I always tip when I play, 2 ways wager is always a good bet even when I'm losing. I tip a whole lot more when I win. But in the end, it's not always about tip when winning it's about the service. They work for tips for a living and I don't feel right to have them bend over hundred times an hour for nothing. Everybody gotta eat, you go to a restaurant and you tip 15% of your meal or more if you like the service. Same as gaming, you should tip for their dealing service. Just my 2 cents.

I like your attitude. When Playing blackjack I have a strategy when I tip. I like to tip at the end of the session, and when I do so it's all about timing. I tip when I'm coloring up and the floor person is watching. I want the floor person to acknowledge that I'm George.

There are a lot of benefits to tipping. Suits will remember it when computing your final action figures and there's more of a chance that if you're borderline between $35 and $40 a hand they'll put you down at $40. You also look more like a regular player and not a counter because a lot of counters don't tip. You'e more likely to get a comp if you're borderline. There was a dealer that I tipped and had a good rapport with. I made a bone-head play like hitting a 16 vs dealer 6-up or some other such sin. She paused until I tucked. I once played craps on the don't come where the shooter rolled six. Few rolls later the shooter rolls a six and the dealer leaves my bet on the six--I had been tipping (I personally have had several similar examples like this happen at craps. The best one I remember is where I had tipped '$5 for the boys.' The bet lost as they more often than not do. I gave dealer ra $100 and asked for change. I had been betting 'right' and as the dealer was handing me my checks and the shooter threw a natural I said, "Too bad I wasn't on it." The dealer said, "You could be." He then placed $5 on the pass line like my previous bets, handed me the remaining $95, then proceeded to pay the pass line bet). Lastly, the suits like players that take care of the dealers; it helps grease the wheel.

Remember, I play for comps. Blackjack is my bread and butter game. I don't tip much or after every session, but when I do I slide it over to the dealer and say, "This is for you." I have not in many years placed a wager for the dealer; I do not like this way of tipping because if it loses you've really given the dealer nothing except an appreciated gesture--they'll often expect another. By giving the tip straight-up at the end the dealer always gets something. And I think that is much better than a gesture.

Quote: HowMany

An orangutan could deal blackjack if it could be trained to say "insurance?"

Doesn't have to say "Insurance", just sweep the insurance line and grunt. Anyone who should be taking insurance will have already placed their bets anyway.

The weird part will be advisory calls. You ever hear an orangutan call out "Change Only" or "Color coming in"?

Quote: tommyngo215

Dealers from East Coast getting paid 5.15/hour + tips (pool)
Dealers from Vegas getting paid anywhere from 7.00 to 9.50/hour + tips (pool)

So to make it short, dealers depend on tips to make a living otherwise they'd starve.

The house has a hell of alot more EV than me, let them pay em or they can walk. My EV per hour is roughly $50 and my couple bucks has been unappreciated so they must be doing ok. If everyone did a couple per hour they would pull 18-20 per hour. That's solid pay considering the skill level required. I get much more appreciatin from handing a ten or twenty to a legit down on their luck street person.

Quote: MaxPen

The house has a hell of alot more EV than me, let them pay em or they can walk. My EV per hour is roughly $50 and my couple bucks has been unappreciated so they must be doing ok. If everyone did a couple per hour they would pull 18-20 per hour. That's solid pay considering the skill level required. I get much more appreciatin from handing a ten or twenty to a legit down on their luck street person.

While everybody is entitled to their own opinion, overall this is a FREE country. However, I respectfully disagree with your point of view. Imagine you're playing dice and you have a bad crew of four that don't know their pay outs. Their hands are slow, the box is weak, do you think by any chance you would catch a hot roll here? When you tip, dealers will be more on your side and return your favor. Ummm example, a late bet will be booked? Sometimes, late bet will not be booked in your favor. It's a way two street my friend. Trust me, dealing is an ART it's required more skills and physical demands than you'd ever imagine. And it's not an easy job. I'd like to see you on the other side of the table for a day and then give me your feedback. Casino industry is so saturated, I can tell you most joints on the strips don't make more than 100/day on the average (tokes). And believe me, they'd be happy to make 18-20 hour. Don't forget that they have to share their tokes with hundreds of other dealers. But anyway, whatever float your boat. I believe in Karma and I believe in Tipping!

and lastly, don't get confused with the house and dealers....they're in the same building but they're not really working for the same people. Casinos don't care about their dealers. LOL and dealers for sure don't care about those stupid chips in their rack. They're there to make money for a living and it's from us, you, me and other players to tip. Don't blame on dealer if you got beat on your natural 8. And Don't take it out on dealers when you lost on your 20s.

Recently, a player colored up and threw in a few chips for a tip. We thanked the player and he walked away. Another guy at the table made a comment like, "We [players] shouldn't tip the dealers." Needless to say, it suddenly became very difficult for him to place any bets. "You can't no-bet the shooter." ---- "I just did...10 change to the shooter after the roll."

Quote: RS

IMO, $2/hour is hardly tipping. Unless your EV is very little, I can't imagine $13 for 4 hours of play would be a significant amount.

If you really wanna cut down on tipping, don't valet. Drink water before going to the casino. After some time, order 2 waters and tip $1 for them. That should reduce your expenses from $5/trip to $1/trip, or $1200/year.

If you're playing a game worth $100/hour, I'd tip ~$5/hour to the dealers. $20/session for dealers, $1/session for water, or $21/session. That's $6,300 a year. If you're playing a game for $100/hour in EV, that'd mean you're tipping 5.25% of your EV.

A great way to tip is by getting others to tip. Perhaps before a round say, "Alright everyone, let's put a bet out there for the dealer!" or if someone is coloring up [and about to stiff the dealer], make a comment, "Don't forget to tip the dealer." If it works and players start betting for the dealer, it's almost always an instant thank-you recognition from the dealer, whether they thank you verbally or give you a "Hey, thanks for helping me" kind of look/gesture. A good while ago (playing craps to kill some time), I got my entire side of the table to put $1 on the pass line for the dealers. No one else knew about tipping or anything. It cost me probably $4-5 in tips, but after playing a short while I colored up and left. Few days later I was walking through the pit, dealer called me over, and apparently those players continued making bets for the dealers for the next hour or so.

More recently, playing blackjack, I'd put out $1 every now and then for the dealer. After winning a good percentage of my hands, with some BJ's mixed in, another player made the usual ploppy comments as to why I kept winning and he kept losing. Tried to get him to bet for the dealer and he wouldn't. He eventually went bust and left, so it was just me and dealer, heads up. Dealer seemed to appreciate me trying to get the other player to tip more than he appreciated the $10 I had tipped in the last hour or so. And of course (well not of course, but..), I never once got a checks-play or black-action call on me. I figure the dealer knew what I was doing since he seemed somewhat intelligent.

Dealer selection: In my opinion, you don't want the old fat grumpy looking dealer (he probably deals really slowly, anyway), or the old Asian lady (probably can't understand her). I'd look for a younger and happy looking dealer, likely will be more appreciative of your tips. You don't want the grumpy guy to not like you because you're under-tipping -- word spreads pretty fast in the employee break-room as to who's tipping and who's not. The unnapreciative dealer is more likely to mention you're a stiff....while the more appreciative dealer probably thinks you're just a lousy tipper, but since you're at least tipping, isn't going to make comments about you under-tipping.

Dealers don't like stiffs -- and bosses don't like stiffs either. Someone who tips at least a small amount (more than $2/hour -__- ) is more likely to get the benefit of the doubt when something weird happens, whether it's up to the dealer's discretion or boss's discretion. If the boss at least sort of thinks you might be a half-way decent person (ie: he likes you), lower chance he's going to think you're up to something and get your play reviewed.


Of course, YMMV: It's going to be a different scenario if you're playing at a station casino versus a strip casino.

That's all good advice except for the part about telling another patron to tip as they attempt to color up. I had that happen to me yesterday. The thing is, I had been tipping the dealer all throughout the hour, and then this guy has the nerve to tell me that I should tip MORE? I tip what I can afford, and meanwhile this knucklehead hadn't placed 1 tip for the dealer the entire time I was there.

I really need to start following my golden rule that I keep breaking. Only tip during coloring up, no one cares about small tips spread throughout play! $10 dollar at the end is more impressive than 2 individual $5 tips!

Non tippers are like George in this video.
They feel hurt when their tip has no
impact. They're emotionally connected
to their money, it bothers them to tip and
not be appreciated.

Casino has 10x point day usually less than a third of that. I get a $1 in comps for every $100 in action on a slot that's paying back 85%. I lose a $150 and get $10 back. A devils gift of 6.66%.
I have a $50EV, with 2/15 the edge of the house over a slot player, per hour play and I tip off a few bucks per hour. 6% EVERY DAY. I am somehow, according to dealers and George's an evil person.
Anyone still wonder why I no longer care about a dealer. Just gave $20 to the couple that lives on a street bench near my building. Stiffed the dealers 1/2 a day to get that. I always tip cocktail waitresses for my 3 sips of Coke and the valet.
In the eyes of a dealer I'm an ass. In the eyes of everyone else I guarantee I'm not seen as one. Wasn't always like this but came to be by dealers attitudes. On the bright side the homeless are benefiting.

What a can of worms I opened. If I'd seen a thread on tipping, I'd have never started this one, that's for sure.

Still, some interesting insights in this thread. I'm appreciative.

When you give money to the homeless person on the street you're enabling them not helping them. Frankly being part of the problem rather than the solution regardless of your intentions IMHO. Just give it to the charity if you want to help them.

Quote: mcallister3200

When you give money to the homeless person on the street you're enabling them not helping them. Frankly being part of the problem rather than the solution regardless of your intentions IMHO. Just give it to the charity if you want to help them.

Depends on the person. I've become a pretty good judge of circumstance with just observation. Since moving downtown I'm surrounded by them and noticed that some are circumstantial while others are habitual. I like helping the circumstantial directly.

Quote: mcallister3200

When you give money to the homeless person on the street you're enabling them not helping them. Frankly being part of the problem rather than the solution regardless of your intentions IMHO. Just give it to the charity if you want to help them.

I do both, giving my time and financially to organizations as well as handing a few dollars to those in need. I am aware of the 'enabling' sentiment and frankly am OK with enabling them. Only they can decide if they want to begin to change their life. Hopefully they will at some point. Until then I am ok with rendering a little 'comfort' as the bible suggests. I am not a real religious person, so I probably shouldn't reference the bible. :/

As for that comfort, that my couple dollars brings. If that turns into another bottle of booze, that helps that person 'escape' their situation for a couple hours, that's their call. I am Ok, with this too. I have not walked in their shoes, and had people spit, kick, talk down to me and cuss me out as I see many do with the homeless. If I was in that position, I might just opt for that same temporary escape.

Quote: EvenBob

Non tippers are like George in this video.
They feel hurt when their tip has no
impact. They're emotionally connected
to their money, it bothers them to tip and
not be appreciated.

I like your avatar, EB....one of my favorite movies.

Having been in the 'real' service industry as you were, I can appreciate your perspective on tipping. I feel like I am a pretty decent tipper to those in the 'real' service industry. I just have never been convinced that a dealer qualifies as part of that service industry.

The idea originated that a winning player should 'share' his good fortune with the dealer, as if the dealer had something to do with that good fortune. It started as an actual gratuity, but has now been expanded to expectation of all players, winning or losing should compensate a dealer, which is NOT a service industry job in my opinion. I equate it more to a low level customer service job, like a cashier at CVS. They are dealing (pun intended) with the public, but NOT providing an actual personal service.

Meanwhile, the casino owner, has taken advantage of and even pushed this ridiculous notion that dealers are of that service type position, specifically so he can reduce costs and push his responsibility of paying a fair wage off onto the customer while lining his pockets.

I will not be bullied by dealers, nor casino owners and all the name calling in the world will not convince me that a dealer is anything but a low skill, low paying, NON-service industry job.

Quote: kewlj

I do both, giving my time and financially to organizations as well as handing a few dollars to those in need. I am aware of the 'enabling' sentiment and frankly am OK with enabling them. Only they can decide if they want to begin to change their life. Hopefully they will at some point. Until them I am ok with rendering a little 'comfort' as the bible suggests. I am not a real religious person, so I probably shouldn't quote the bible. :/

As for that comfort, that my couple dollars brings. If that turns into another bottle of booze, that helps that person 'escape' their situation for a couple hours, that's their call. I am Ok, with this too. I have not walked in their shoes, and had people spit, kick, talk down to me and cuss me out as I see many do with the homeless. If I was in that position, I might just opt for that same temporary escape.

These are nice sentiments you express, Kewlj.

Quote: kewlj

I will not be bullied by dealers, nor casino owners and all the name calling in the world will not convince me that a dealer is anything but a low skill, low paying, NON-service industry job.

Your opinion means little because you've
never worked with the public before. It's
a shit job, and a tip goes a long way to making
it less shitty. It's a show of appreciation for
standing there taking crap from people.
You can understand that, you just don't
want to. You have an emotional attachment
to your money, your ego and your self esteem
are wrapped up in it. People like that are usually
terrible tippers.

Quote: EvenBob

Your opinion means little because you've
never worked with the public before. It's
a shit job, and a tip goes a long way to making
it less shitty.

PLEASE! I have indeed worked with the public. I worked a very low level retail job in a horrible environment, adult book store for several years before turning 21 and becoming an AP.

The kind of 'bookstore' that masks as a retail establishment up front, selling magazine, video and 'toys', while in the back part of the store, 'patrons' are dropping a dollar every 90 seconds into the private video booths. Although more often than not, those booths were being used for nothing more than smoking crack. Believe me, a pretty low class of clientele, of drug addicts, pervs and thugs and I experienced 3 robberies at gunpoint to prove my point, so don't tell me about working 'shitty' jobs with the public.

Crappy jobs are crappy jobs. You get what you sign up for. If dealers don't like their crappy job, they should find a different job, not expect a handout.

Quote: kewlj

If dealers don't like their crappy job, they should find a different job, not expect a handout.

Tipping is not a handout. Just admit you don't
understand how the industry works and be
done with it. Non tippers always have 14 excuses
for not tipping, and it always makes them look
cheap and petty. You're smarter than that..

Quote: EvenBob

It's
a shit job, and a tip goes a long way to making
it less shitty. It's a show of appreciation for
standing there taking crap from people.

Various cashiers, retail sales people, security, bus drivers, even policemen among many other professions, stand there taking crap from people. Is it my responsibility to give them a handout to "make their job less shitty"?

Quote: EvenBob

Tipping is not a handout. Just admit you don't
understand how the industry works and be
done with it. Non tippers always have 14 excuses
for not tipping, and it always makes them look
cheap and petty. You're smarter than that..

I think it is YOU who doesn't understand how the industry works! Are you tipping, the pit people, security, surveillance that protects you from pickpockets, the maintenance guy that replaces the felt on the blackjack table and the people that vacuum the floor? They are all contributing to your experience. No, you are not tipping them because it is the casino's responsibility to pay them. It is part of the cost of doing business. It is absolutely no difference with dealers.

Quote: kewlj

Various cashiers, retail sales people, security, bus drivers, even policemen among many other professions, stand there taking crap from people.

You can't get these people to do things you
ask for. Try asking cop or a bus driver to get
you coffee. You can ask a dealer to place bets
for you. You can ask for the rules of the game,
you can ask them to constantly color up your
chips. Just like you can have a waitress run all
over the place doing things for you. Try that
with cashiers, security, bus drivers and cops.
Dealers shuffle the cards and spin the ball,
they are intimately involved with you winning.
That's not worth a gratuity?

If we stopped tipping dealers and waitresses,
they industry would have to raise their prices
to make up the difference. Is that a good thing?

Quote: EvenBob

You can't get these people to do things you
ask for. Try asking cop or a bus driver to get
you coffee. You can ask a dealer to place bets
for you. You can ask for the rules of the game,
you can ask them to constantly color up your
chips. Just like you can have a waitress run all
over the place doing things for you. Try that
with cashiers, security, bus drivers and cops.
Dealers shuffle the cards and spin the ball,
they are intimately involved with you winning.
That's not worth a gratuity?

If we stopped tipping dealers and waitresses,
they industry would have to raise their prices
to make up the difference. Is that a good thing?

First, placing bets and coloring up are part of the dealers job, not some extra thing they are doing for you. lol.

Second, try asking a dealer the rules or advice on how to play. You will get absolutely horrendous answers. Yeah...that is worthy of a tip.

Third, stop equating dealer with waitress. NEVER have I suggested not tipping a waitress. I tip 20%, unless I have a reason not to. I just don't consider a dealer in that same vein of 'service' type job.

You have not made any case that dealer is a service industry job. The most you have done is say that it is a 'shitty' job and we should feel sorry for them. I do feel sorry for them. I feel bad that they made a bad career choice. But that doesn't mean I am giving them my money for no apparent reason.

Quote: kewlj

F

You have not made any case that dealer is a service industry job. .

Yet it is a service industry job, a well known one
for the the last 200 years. Everybody but you
seems to know and understand that. You can
wriggle and writhe and try to hold onto your
hard earned industry gained money, but there
is no denying dealing is a service industry job.
Just watch any table in any casino, tipping galore.

Quote: EvenBob

dealing is a service industry job.
Just watch any table in any casino, tipping galore.

Correlation does not imply causation.
The dealers could have simply convinced the marks on the round side of the table to give them some money, since they were giving some to the house anyway.

I'm not anti-tipping, but this argument doesn't stand.

So it's OK for a homeless guy asking for a handout, usually sitting on the sidewalk with a sign, effectively doing nothing at all? THAT is ok? But dealers who actually do work....they can't get a tip?


I'm still not seeing how dealers are not part of the service industry like restaurant waitresses / cocktail waitresses are. You say coloring up, placing bets, paying you out, giving you money, etc. that's all part of their job which is why they shouldn't be tipped? Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure the things waitresses do at a restaurant IS their job - take your order, deliver your food, etc.


Both dealers and waitresses are "doing their job". I'm pretty sure waitresses aren't hired to just sit around and do nothing, but they decide to go "above and beyond" so they take your order, deliver food and drinks, etc. I've never worked in a restaurant, so correct me if I'm wrong.


So tipping dealers used to be a form of gratuity/appreciation but now it's "expected"? It's because the casino managers want to line their pockets with money and have the patrons subsidize the dealer's income? And you think dealers should be paid more $$$ from their employer? What about waitresses? Are you insinuating it's OK for a restaurant to pay waitresses minimum wage and have the patrons subsidize the employees's income via tipping?



It's not a low-skill job, and certainly not lower-skill than waiting tables (or serving cocktails). Again, I've never been a waiter nor worked in a restaurant, and I'm sure there's a bit more to it than I think.....but I'm pretty sure you don't need to go to "waiter school" or "learn how to be a waiter". But I am a dealer and I know that you gotta go to dealer school (or have a friend who's a dealer teach you personally). I went to school and finished pretty quickly, I think 25-30 hours a week for 5-6 weeks it took me. Many others took 2-4 months.

Granted, dealing doesn't require professional schooling, like what is necessary to be a lawyer/doctor/architect/engineer/teacher/etc. BUT, it doesn't require learning a new skill that isn't "obvious" -- ie: I can show up to a restaurant and apply to be a waiter and there's no pre-requisite for it, I can show up to wal-mart and apply to be a cashier/bagger/shelf-stocker, I can go to a casino and apply to be a custodian/janitor. ANYONE can do that without knowing anything special. But I have a feeling if any regular person wouldn't be able to get a job dealing without actually knowing how to deal.


You are aware of the effect on a business when they switch from paying employees $8/hour and then to $15/hour? Here's a hint: That extra $7/hour doesn't come out of thin air nor the management's pockets.....it comes from the patron's pocket in the form of worse games, higher HE's, less comps, more expensive food/room/shows/etc. It doesn't take an expert to figure out that if patrons are getting screwed over even more (money not lasting as long, losing more, etc.) they'll soon figure out gambling isn't worth it anymore....they stop going to the casino....casino isn't making as much money as they used to.... It is in YOUR best interest for the casino to be thriving so you can continue taking money from them. It is NOT in your best interest for the casinos to be struggling financially.


You say if they don't like their paycheck they should find a different job. I partially agree with you there. Unfortunately, that's the reality -- no one wants to deal for $8/hour...and very few will deal for $8/hour. Who wants to stand 8 hours a day, smoke in their face, alcoholic degenerates cursing at them, having to put up with idiots who bet $27 every hand instead of $25....or those who grab a chunk of un-sorted chips to bet, dealer gets blamed when players lose...and "it's a hot shoe" when players win. ?


To sum it up.....

It appears like you're OK with giving a hand-out to a homeless guy who doesn't do anything (I'm not against this position, btw)....but you're against tipping a dealer who is actually working?

You don't like how casinos pay their dealers minimum wage....yet I haven't heard your stance on restaurants paying waiters minimum wage. Do you think it's OK for patrons to subsidize waiters' income by tipping, but it's not OK for patrons to subsidize dealers' income by tipping?

You don't want to tip dealers because their job is "low skill" but you tip waitresses (apparently that's not "low skill" to you?)....when in fact, dealing actually requires schooling and learning while waiting tables (or serving cocktails) does not require learning any special skills [as far as I know, at least].

Quote: EvenBob

Yet it is a service industry job, a well known one
for the the last 200 years. Everybody but you
seems to know and understand that. You can
wriggle and writhe and try to hold onto your
hard earned industry gained money, but there
is no denying dealing is a service industry job.
Just watch any table in any casino, tipping galore.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make when you say hard working people do not want to part with earned money. Of course this is the case! I don't know how you came into your money, maybe it was inheritance, because it is baffling to me that you are mocking people who had to work hard for their money. i have made numerous sacrifices for my job, so the money better be worth it. So I can hope you understand why it is not as easy for some of us to throw around money like it is nothing.

RS, being a former dealer, I am sorry if I have offended you.

Again, I just do not view a dealer the same way as a waiter, bellhop or other service industry jobs. You can make the case that almost any job working with the public is a service job. Where do we draw the line? Should I tip every person that I come in contact with? Every cashier, policeman, mailman, trash collection person and I don't mean once a year as some tip mail and trash men, but every time they provide that service for me. Should my first stop each day be at the bank where I can get enough $5 bills to tip everyone that I come in contact with starting with the bank teller?

When I go to the grocery store, should I tip the cashier? She/he is dealing with the public in what EvenBob calls a crappy job, getting grief from the customers. And if I am going to tip the cashier, I might as well seek out the stockperson who stocked the shelves. Without them, there would be nothing on the shelves for me to purchase. I guess I should find the driver, who delivered the goods to the store as well.

If a dealer, a person doing a common menial type job is considered a service industry job, please tell me where it ends.


RS, if you don't see the difference in handing a couple bucks to a homeless person and a dealer, I don't know what to tell you. One is 'needy', meaning unable to meet his basic daily needs of food and water. He sleeps on the sidewalk or alley or maybe a shelter with 50 other homeless people in the same room. He eats garbage out of the trash can or dumpster. The other doesn't like the job or career path he/she has chosen and thinks they should make more money. I just can't afford to subsidize every person dissatisfied with their job and income.

Talking about tipping is like talking about the death penalty or abortion; it's very unlikely that anyone is going to change their mind from their current point of view.

KJ is a generous person in many ways, with his time and with those in need. Because of this I cut him some slack. But I don't think his arguments regarding not tipping dealers stand up. He's mentioned before that in a casino one of the reasons that he doesn't tip dealers is because: where does it stop? Should you tip surveillance people, security people, the people who clean out the ashtrays, etc? And yet he tips waitresses 20%. But the same argument for not tipping dealers could easily be carried over to waitresses in a restaurant. Should we tip the busboy the cook the cashier the janitor. Of course not, and all of this it's related to custom.

It is part of our custom that dealers and waitresses and cabdrivers receive tips. And just like going to a foreign country and disregarding and flouting the rules and customs of good behavior you would be considered rude, uncouth and perhaps an idiot if you did not.

To say that waitresses are service people and dealers are not, one would have to be obtuse. When a player at a blackjack table makes their decision to hit, stand, surrender, split, take even money or double, they're making a request to the dealer to follow their instructions. And they're following the player's instructions for approximately 60 to 200 hands an hour. (And dealers have to remember the rule differences from 6:5 and 3:2 double after split etc., that might occur on different games from SD to 8D shoes.) This is no different at all from a waitress bringing you your club steak, your hamburger, fries, or your side of onion rings that you requested. In fact dealing is a service industry job that is much more difficult than waitressing.

Some on this forum have suggested that dealing is a low-skill job; that it is menial labor. I think this is absurd. The game of craps can be very complicated with all the payouts and all the combinations and quick math that the dealers must be able to do in order to correctly make these payouts to patrons--let alone keeping track of who's bets belong to whom. In blackjack certain procedures must be followed; game protection must be paramount, dealing correctly and being able to add the totals efficiently and fast is all part of the game and you must have a certain attitude and be able to take the heat the customers dole out. This is not something that is required of menial labor. People that have a low opinion of blackjack dealers might suggest that the only ability it takes is to be able to count to 21 and know if you're over or not in order to sweep the players cards. What a ridiculous put-down this is based on the efficiency and the quality that it takes to do this game proficiently.

I tip, Ilike to tip I think. I know I feel like I should tip.
I have no problem with those that don't, it is THEIR money, and I really must admit that my opinion about how they do or don't spend it should matter very little to them, if at all. That is very simple to me.
Their opinion about how I spend MY money, same story. Still simple.

I believe, or at least hope, that the vast majority of people in this country, maybe the whole world, take some time in their lives to think about being good to other people, being a positive force in the world. The extent and manner of those efforts I leave completely up to them.
Cheers, 2F

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I tip, Ilike to tip I think. I know I feel like I should tip.
I have no problem with those that don't, it is THEIR money, and I really must admit that my opinion about how they do or don't spend it should matter very little to them, if at all. That is very simple to me.
Their opinion about how I spend MY money, same story. Still simple.

I believe, or at least hope, that the vast majority of people in this country, maybe the whole world, take some time in their lives to think about being good to other people, being a positive force in the world. The extent and manner of those efforts I leave completely up to them.
Cheers, 2F

May I ask you some honest questions? Would you have no thought whatsoever if you saw a waitress walk up to a table of six where the patrons had just left and she notices that no tip was left for her? If you noticed the disappointment in her expression would you have no reaction at all?

And if you did feel any compassion for her the only answer to that would be that you felt that her services had been unappreciated, and therefore you must feel negatively toward those who did not appreciate her.

You seem to have a live-and-let-live attitude which in many ways is a good thing, but when someones actions infringe upon others that must be taken into account. And if one doesn't take that into account then one's view of the world is shallow and uncircumspect.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Talking about tipping is like talking about the death penalty or abortion; it's very unlikely that anyone is going to change their mind from their current point of view.

KJ is a generous person in many ways, with his time and with those in need. Because of this I cut him some slack. But I don't think his arguments regarding not tipping dealers stand up. He's mentioned before that in a casino one of the reasons that he doesn't tip dealers is because: where does it stop? Should you tip surveillance people, security people, the people who clean out the ashtrays, etc? And yet he tips waitresses 20%. But the same argument for not tipping dealers could easily be carried over to waitresses in a restaurant. Should we tip the busboy the cook the cashier the janitor. Of course not, and all of this it's related to custom.

It is part of our custom that dealers and waitresses and cabdrivers receive tips. And just like going to a foreign country and disregarding and flouting the rules and customs of good behavior you would be considered rude, uncouth and perhaps an idiot if you did not.

To say that waitresses are service people and dealers are not, one would have to be obtuse. When a player at a blackjack table makes their decision to hit, stand, surrender, split, take even money or double, they're making a request to the dealer to follow their instructions. And they're following the player's instructions for approximately 60 to 200 hands an hour. (And dealers have to remember the rule differences from 6:5 and 3:2 double after split etc., that might occur on different games from SD to 8D shoes.) This is no different at all from a waitress bringing you your club steak, your hamburger, fries, or your side of onion rings that you requested. In fact dealing is a service industry job that is much more difficult than waitressing.

Some on this forum have suggested that dealing is a low-skill job; that it is menial labor. I think this is absurd. The game of craps can be very complicated with all the payouts and all the combinations and quick math that the dealers must be able to do in order to correctly make these payouts to patrons--let alone keeping track of who's bets belong to whom. In blackjack certain procedures must be followed; game protection must be paramount, dealing correctly and being able to add the totals efficiently and fast is all part of the game and you must have a certain attitude and be able to take the heat the customers dole out. This is not something that is required of menial labor. People that have a low opinion of blackjack dealers might suggest that the only ability it takes is to be able to count to 21 and know if you're over or not in order to sweep the players cards. What a ridiculous put-down this is based on the efficiency and the quality that it takes to do this game proficiently.

That's a good argument for why casinos should pay a dealer more than minimum wage. I would if I had someone responsible for my chip rack. However, there is no argument for why the player should subsidize the injustices done by management. Also, a professional blackjack player is operating with to thin of an edge for his tips related to action to seem meaningful to a dealer or others when in fact they are much more gracious than a casino is to its own patrons.

Hi GJ!
Couple things:
1st most places add the tip automatically for parties of six or more ;-) but that beside the point.
I tip, feel I should tip, really feel others should too, but leave them the option not to.
Their relationship with the Power that runs this universe is too complicated for me to fix.
Now if I were in charge, grand Puhbah, The Lord knows that things would be different.
But they probably wouldn't be better.
I'm not that good....

Quote: MaxPen

That's a good argument for why casinos should pay a dealer more than minimum wage. I would if I had someone responsible for my chip rack. However, there is no argument for why the player should subsidize the injustices done by management. Also, a professional blackjack player is operating with to thin of an edge for his tips related to action to seem meaningful to a dealer or others when in fact they are much more gracious than a casino is to its own patrons.

Max,

You could make your same argument for every profession where tipping is customary. Cabdriver, waitresses, barbers--they should all be paid more by their employers so that tipping isn't necessary.

But these employers don't and shouldn't have to raise their saleries because tipping is already accepted as supplementing the salaries in these fields. It's not that employers aren't paying their employees enough, it's that accepted customs are already in place to supplement said employees' wages.

And around and around we go...

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Hi GJ!
Couple things:
1st most places add the tip automatically for parties of six or more ;-) but that beside the point.
I tip, feel I should tip, really feel others should too, but leave them the option not to.
Their relationship with the Power that runs this universe is too complicated for me to fix.
Now if I were in charge, grand Puhbah, The Lord knows that things would be different.
But they probably wouldn't be better.
I'm not that good....

Kind sir,

I would be appreciative of your effort to address the questions I posed to you in my prior post to your live-and-let-live attitude.

Quote: Greasyjohn

It's not that employers aren't paying their employees enough, it's that accepted customs are already in place to supplement said employees wages.

Exactly! The whole business model of a particular
industry is that the employee get and rely on tips.
People act like the owners are driving around in
Rolls Royces with all the money they save from
paying an employee less because he gets tipped.

I stand behind the George Costanza video I posted.
Most tightwad non tippers want personal recognition
when they tip, and when they don't get it, they stop
tipping. They don't understand they aren't giving
that person money personally, they are supporting
an industry and a time honored tradition.

Quote: EvenBob

Exactly! The whole business model of a particular
industry is that the employee get and rely on tips.
People act like the owners are driving around in
Rolls Royces with all the money they save from
paying an employee less because he gets tipped.

I stand behind the George Costanza video I posted.
Most tightwad non tippers want personal recognition
when they tip, and when they don't get it, they stop
tipping. They don't understand they aren't giving
that person money personally, they are supporting
an industry and a time honored tradition.

As regards the gaming industry I don't think that one person who tips has convinced one person that does not tip to do so and vice versa. The arguments of one side are so discounted that the other side feels like an explanation is not necessary.

If we translate this concept to apply to nations that are dealing with crucial issues that affect their sovereignty or trade or ideology it can lead to war.

Why is it that one side of an issue cannot appreciate the other side of the issues arguments? Many of us have made a great deal of effort to express how we feel in this thread. EB, you said that those that don't tip just don't get it. I agree with your powerful conclusion. But I'm sure that those that don't tip say that those that do don't get it either.

Quote: Greasyjohn

But I'm sure that those that don't tip say that those the tip don't get it either.

All the people I've known who don't tip
get it just fine. They're cheapskates in all
other facets of their life too.

Quote: EvenBob

Exactly! The whole business model of a particular
industry is that the employee get and rely on tips.
People act like the owners are driving around in
Rolls Royces with all the money they save from
paying an employee less because he gets tipped.

I stand behind the George Costanza video I posted.
Most tightwad non tippers want personal recognition
when they tip, and when they don't get it, they stop
tipping. They don't understand they aren't giving
that person money personally, they are supporting
an industry and a time honored tradition.

I don't give a rats a$$ about tradition. But I do about my wallet and bank account.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Kind sir,

I would be appreciative of your effort to address the questions I posed to you in my prior post to your live-and-let-live attitude.

Geez GJ, I thought I did, I'll try harder.
Saw 3 specific questions:
1- You may ask, no problem. I might coose to answer, probably always in your case.
2- I would indeed have 'thought whatsover' when she noticed no tip.
3- if I noticed the reaction of disappointment on her face, I would feel bad for her.

Then I noticed you expressed what you thought should be the conclusion to what you suspected you knew my answer would be to the 3 questions, but technically that was not a question.
But to respond, yes I would feel negatively toward those that didn't tip the waitress. I would not follow them outside to inquire why they were jerks. I have done things like before however, got pretty bloody once or twice, hard to tell how much of that blood was mine. Always too much.
Neither would I tip for the party that just left.
For all I know the waitress did a very poor job with that party of diners.
Maybe they just barely had enough to cover the tab, none left for tip, so they are just dumbasses, not necessarily jerks.
Maybe they went to the car for more cash, and are going to come back right after I walk out, I will never know.
Any number of other possibilities.

Your last paragraph comes to another conclusion or two, but still not a question, per se.
You made a good point. You may have insinuated that my world view was shallow and uncircumspect, and it may very well be. Or maybe you were preaching to others.

But this thread was about tipping dealers, and dealers are one thing, and Waitesses are another. I do not understand those that would tip a waitress, and not a Dealer, but I don't have to understand them. Tipping is an option, by definition. People make good choices and bad choices all the time. I have made a lot of both.
I already said in this thread that I tip dealers. I was so bold as to say that I believed I was a relatively good tipper, and tried to explain my rational. Sometimes just to try to set a good example is good enough for me.

I definitely do not think I should, me the village idiot here, assume the responsibility of trying to change the minds of people that feel differently. I will, I have tried to, leave that to the many other, the more experienced players here.

Hope that explanation helps better, than my first attempt.
Cheers, 2F

Quote: RS

I'm still not seeing how dealers are not part of the service industry like restaurant waitresses / cocktail waitresses are.

I mind less subsidizing the job that is obviously running a tight margin regardless of what it is. But why am I subsidizing a mega-wealthy industry that could afford to pay their staff the proper wage.

(Okay, now we can argue why it hurts AP to get rid of tipping. I understand, if casinos made ap opportunities directly proportional to tipping I could maybe see the argument, but as it stands, I think they just they get a cut no matter what, screw everyone anyway.)

Quote: kewlj

Where do we draw the line? Should I tip every person that I come in contact with?

Most jobs can be conducted in many manners.

I don't particularly care if the mail gets delivered at 10 am or 1pm or 2pm. (I actually do care, and I pay for better service.)
I don't particularly care if it takes 3 minutes or 5 minutes to get my groceries checked out.

The difference between 100 and 200 rounds per hour is worth a tip, in my opinion. You're welcome to feel differently, of course.

Quote: kewlj

if you don't see the difference in handing a couple bucks to a homeless person and a dealer, I don't know what to tell you. One is 'needy', meaning unable to meet his basic daily needs of food and water. He sleeps on the sidewalk or alley or maybe a shelter with 50 other homeless people in the same room. He eats garbage out of the trash can or dumpster. The other doesn't like the job or career path he/she has chosen and thinks they should make more money. I just can't afford to subsidize every person dissatisfied with their job and income.

I've met too many professional panhandlers. In general, I don't believe that their business benefits me, so I don't tip them. Again, you're welcome to feel differently.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I don't give a rats a$$ about tradition. But I do about my wallet and bank account.

Go to Germany and drive in the fast lane on the autobahn at 65 miles an hour in order to save gas and see what happens. Go on, don't give a rats a$$ about tradition. You won't be following tradition but the other drivers sure will. God bless you. You'll need it.

Following tradition is showing respect for other people. If you don't follow tradition and tell those whose traditions you don't follow you don't give a rats a$$ then your arrogance and selfishness will purchase you nothing but disdain or worse.

(Of course I realize you were just making that statement with a certain amount of bravado. Just be careful where and when you pull out your sword.)

Michael Vernon, an instructor and a pretty savvy gambling writer @ Dicesetter.com has an excellent piece here http://www.dicesetter.com/mp/dmad126tip.htm TIPPING: Is There Two Sets of Rules? Very enlightening. As a craps dealer, floorman and Pit manager for over three decades my advice to anyone who gambles on a regular basis is to toke early in your session and occasionally throughout if you want to be accorded any type of preferential treatment. Irregardless if you believe that the casinos should pay a livable salary, thus making toking a moot point or not, toking is and always has been a part of the casino experience from day one. It's a fact of life. Granted, ( especially since the proliferation of legal casinos nationwide ) some dealers are poorly trained, somewhat clueless, and lacking in the necessary instincts that experienced gaming professionals rely on. Shiity dealers are an embarrassment to the industry. If you run into a dealer or a crew that aggravates you to the point where you aren't comfortable leaving any gratuity, I don't blame you, but if you're stiffing everybody just because you're just a cheap prick...shame on you...maybe recreational gaming isn't really your forte. Personally, I'd rather not have an adversarial relationship with the people that are handling my chips, my wagers and my table service, but thats just me.

Not true many dealers keep tokes, which alters the wage greatly.

I'm glad that I have stated my point of view thoroughly regarding tipping in this and other threads. Combined the different threads include just about everything about the way I feel regarding tipping.

There are two camps, those who tip dealers and those who do not. I have not seen anywhere where those who tip have decided not to tip or vice versa because of persuasive arguments.

It's the strangest thing; people with a very similar interest in a game like blackjack, that embrace the casino environment, share such a different view regarding the established custom of tipping.

I think there is value in expressing our opinions regarding tipping. And many of us on both sides of the issue are confounded that our persuasiveness has not enlightened the opposition camp.

And so it is with the human condition.

Some gamblers from Ireland don't tip because they are unfamiliar with American casinos.

-----
Irish casinos pay a higher base wage.
-> May have changed, I saw a job ad for Dublin at $18,000 EUR/yr = 9 EUR/hr.
-> Euro used to be $1.50 ($14.50/hr), but now $1.10 ($10/hr).

I got rough looks for tipping at tables.
Dealers there explained that they don't like tips because the players must be winning & taking money from the casino.

So different from Vegas where most of dealer's wages are non-salary tips.

Mitchell

Here's something else to factor in the equation. In the U.S.A., the IRS takes the taxes on toke income ( most American casinos have 100% tip compliance )right off the top of the dealers regular paycheck! So if you've been working a crew out for the better part of their shift, color up, then stiff them, you're costing them money by taking the place of a customer who is a potential toker!!! So if you're wondering why you're not getting a warm welcome and top shelf service, chalk it up to survival economics. I'm telling you non-tokers, if you want to enhance your "casino experience" and enjoy yourself, just try a small lay down (it needn't be much, as it truly is the thought that matters), and I'm sure your session will go a lot smoother...if not, then continue having a thoroughly dreadful time...

Quote: kewlj

will not convince me that a dealer is anything but a low skill, low paying, NON-service industry job.

Perhaps to an AP like you..... But as a recreational, negative EV player, I do go for the fun, the thrill, the camaraderie, and the dealer definitely can make a difference to my experience. Without question, more so than a waiter or waitress does.....