What constitutes cheating?
Quote: ajemeisterIs it cheating for a casino staff member/dealer to be an AP? He is spinning the ball as required by the rules of the game, but well enough that he can place in certain areas.. sounds more like AP than cheating to me
The rules of the game call for the number to be decided fairly. If the number is not random, it is against the rules
Quote: TomGThe rules of the game call for the number to be decided fairly. If the number is not random, it is against the rules
isn't this also true for craps then? shouldn't any type of dice manipulation be considered cheating then?
Quote: ajemeisterisn't this also true for craps then? shouldn't any type of dice manipulation be considered cheating then?
No. Only manipulations that result in something other than a random number being thrown should be considered cheating. If it hits the back wall, it's random, in the eyes of most everyone in the world (and the few who disagree have every opportunity to prove it).
Likewise, in the roulette example you give, while possible to imagine, is most likely impossible to actually execute
Quote: TomGNo. Only (dice) manipulations that result in something other than a random number being thrown should be considered cheating. If it hits the back wall, it's random, in the eyes of most everyone in the world (and the few who disagree have every opportunity to prove it).
I've raised this issue a few times in the past:
In Nevada, NRS 465.015 defines cheating as including "altering the criteria which determing the frequency of peyment in a game," which a biased or influenced dice throw would certainly do.
NRS 465.083 says cheating is unlawful.
NRS 465.088 says anyone who attempts to violate NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony. So are people who conspire to violate any of those provisions. NRS 465.083 ("cheating is unlawful") is in that range.
So wouldn't you have to conclude that trying to influence the dice is attempted cheating and therefore a felony? And wouldn't teaching a dice-controlling seminar be attempted conspiracy to cheat?
That would most certainly be the case for those Argentine dice sliders at the Wynn. By the way, whatever happened with that case?Quote: MathExtremist
NRS 465.088 says anyone who attempts to violate NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony. So are people who conspire to violate any of those provisions. NRS 465.083 ("cheating is unlawful") is in that range. So wouldn't you have to conclude that trying to influence the dice is attempted cheating and therefore a felony? And wouldn't teaching a dice-controlling seminar be attempted conspiracy to cheat?
Quote: SanchoPanzaThat would most certainly be the case for those Argentine dice sliders at the Wynn. By the way, whatever happened with that case?Quote: MathExtremist
NRS 465.088 says anyone who attempts to violate NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony. So are people who conspire to violate any of those provisions. NRS 465.083 ("cheating is unlawful") is in that range. So wouldn't you have to conclude that trying to influence the dice is attempted cheating and therefore a felony? And wouldn't teaching a dice-controlling seminar be attempted conspiracy to cheat?
Summary judgment to Wynn on liability (guilty of cheating), dismissed shortly thereafter with regard to damages. From the 4/24/13 minutes: "$415,000 cashier's check was delivered to the District Attorney's office made out to Wynn" so maybe that was enough. I'm pretty sure the defendants had already left the country.
Clark County case # A-11-649116-C
https://www.clarkcountycourts.us/anonymous/
(You can't post links directly to cases, the https session times out. Click on District Civil/Criminal and enter the case #)
Quote: MathExtremist
So wouldn't you have to conclude that trying to influence the dice is attempted cheating and therefore a felony?
Attempting to influence dice by letting them bounce against the back wall is no more cheating than attempting to influence a slot machine by wearing lucky underwear
Tks. So they walk off with at least $300 g's and no criminal charges despite the felony crime. Wynn must have been just too embarrassed to go ahead with a real case that would bring out the details of the painfully obvious collusion.Quote: MathExtremistSummary judgment to Wynn on liability (guilty of cheating), dismissed shortly thereafter with regard to damages. From the 4/24/13 minutes: "$415,000 cashier's check was delivered to the District Attorney's office made out to Wynn" so maybe that was enough. I'm pretty sure the defendants had already left the country.
Quote: TomGAttempting to influence dice by letting them bounce against the back wall is no more cheating than attempting to influence a slot machine by wearing lucky underwear
which is no different than a roulette dealer "placing" the ball in a certain area of the wheel, no? If they are skilled enough to do so then by all means they should be allowed to do so.
back to a previous question... does anyone know if casinos are required to post the exact rules of all their games somewhere? or is it considered public knowledge and modification of the original game where everyone is expected to know the rules?
Don't think they have to post the rules.Quote: ajemeisterwhich is no different than a roulette dealer "placing" the ball in a certain area of the wheel, no? If they are skilled enough to do so then by all means they should be allowed to do so.
back to a previous question... does anyone know if casinos are required to post the exact rules of all their games somewhere? or is it considered public knowledge and modification of the original game where everyone is expected to know the rules?
I'm not sure if the casino has to have them written somewhere in case of a dispute. I doubt they can just make up a new BJ rule without some approval, like dealer wins ties. I assume they would have to display something like that.
Quote: ajemeisterdoes anyone know if casinos are required to post the exact rules of all their games somewhere?
Required to post rules (or not) is probably a question of which gaming authority has jurisdiction.
Different regulatory authorities probably have different policies.
Quote: RSRegarding the difference between player and dealer cheating vs advantage play....I'd say if the casino does it, it's most likely cheating. If it's the customer doing it, it's most likely advantage play.
Pinching, Capping, hand-mucking, and a number of other "customer doing it" activities are cheating.
Quote: EvenBobBenny Binion said 'our work isn't done till
the last check from a customer bounces.'
I can easily believe that is a true quote, but I'm wondering if you can provide a reference/source for that quote? Just because I would like to repeat the quote to others but I don't want to repeat it without trying to authenticate it.
Quote: ajemeisterwhich is no different than a roulette dealer "placing" the ball in a certain area of the wheel, no? If they are skilled enough to do so then by all means they should be allowed to do so.
You think that a roulette game where the ball is placed onto the wheel by the roulette dealer is something that should be allowed in regulated casinos?
Quote: MathExtremistYou think that a roulette game where the ball is placed onto the wheel by the roulette dealer is something that should be allowed in regulated casinos?
Placing the ball on 22 and then using that to settle the bets is cheating.
Steering the ball toward the quadrant centered around 22, by timing rotor speed, launch speed, and rotor alignment is darn tricky, and not (quite) cheating, so long as the ball makes the appropriate number of spins around the tub before dropping.
I don't see it as particularly different than dice setting - put whatever numbers you like on top, but the dice had better hit the back wall. The downside in roulette is that the dealer isn't likely to call no-spin on himself.
Quote: DieterPlacing the ball on 22 and then using that to settle the bets is cheating.
Steering the ball toward the quadrant centered around 22, by timing rotor speed, launch speed, and rotor alignment is darn tricky, and not (quite) cheating, so long as the ball makes the appropriate number of spins around the tub before dropping.
I have a feeling that both the state regulators and judicial system would disagree with you. I am also confident that a Nevada casino would never risk doing this because the NGCB would yank their license, and the few extra dollars they might make from an unfair roulette game is peanuts compared to losing your entire gaming floor.
Quote: DieterPlacing the ball on 22 and then using that to settle the bets is cheating.
Steering the ball toward the quadrant centered around 22, by timing rotor speed, launch speed, and rotor alignment is darn tricky, and not (quite) cheating, so long as the ball makes the appropriate number of spins around the tub before dropping.
I don't see it as particularly different than dice setting - put whatever numbers you like on top, but the dice had better hit the back wall. The downside in roulette is that the dealer isn't likely to call no-spin on himself.
I definitely disagree with this. Altering the game in this way is cheating, by changing the actual odds of something occurring. Taking out face cards from a blackjack shoe would be cheating, but so would taking out low cards from the shoe. Something like edge sorting 3CP doesn't change the odds, it just allows the player to make better decisions. FWIW, I believe in the GWAE podcast that at least one prominent gaming law expert said that he believes that turning the cards (yourself) is a crime, but having the dealer do it is not.
The distinctions here are very complex. For example, if you were playing a pitch blackjack game, and the dealer bobbled the card and you saw that she had a six in the hole, ten up, and you have 11, you may be committing a felony by the letter of the law by doubling down, despite the fact you would have done it as a part of basic strategy. However, if you saw that she had a ten in the hole, for a total of 20, and you decided to forgo the double, then you wouldn't be, because you aren't placing a wager with additional information (doubles, splits, and insurance are all considered wagers legally). To further complicate things, if you were the only person at the table, it may be legal, but the second another person sits down, it's not, unless that person was with you, and you communicated to him what you saw.
The law on cheating in IL defines it as "Places a bet after acquiring knowledge, not
available to all players, of the outcome of the gambling game which is subject of the bet or to aid a person in acquiring the knowledge for the purpose of placing a bet contingent on that outcome.".
So, if you are playing a SD game full ring game, at third base, the first five players in front of you hit and get ten low cards, then you may decide to double your 10 vs T, in which case you are committing a crime according to this statute. However, if you see all the 5's are gone, staying on 16v10 is perfectly OK.
Tricky huh?
Quote: tongniThe law on cheating in IL defines it as "Places a bet after acquiring knowledge, not
available to all players, of the outcome of the gambling game which is subject of the bet or to aid a person in acquiring the knowledge for the purpose of placing a bet contingent on that outcome.".
So, if you are playing a SD game full ring game, at third base, the first five players in front of you hit and get ten low cards, then you may decide to double your 10 vs T, in which case you are committing a crime according to this statute. However, if you see all the 5's are gone, staying on 16v10 is perfectly OK.
I don't think that's accurate. The knowledge you received is available to all players, it's just that you're the only one in a position to act on it.
It'd be interesting to see how that statute would be interpreted in the case where someone used a shiner to look at the hole card and then told everyone else about it. The knowledge of the dealer's hole card is "available to all players"...
On another note.. if a roulette wheel is shown to have a bias (discovered by an AP) is that cheating on the casino's part? what about the other bettors of this wheel, shouldn't they be made aware that the wheel is faulty?
I really wish there were clear cut rules for the casino games at specific casinos that outline everything to the "T" so that a player can make sure his money is being treated fairly.
Quote: MathExtremistI don't think that's accurate. The knowledge you received is available to all players, it's just that you're the only one in a position to act on it.
It'd be interesting to see how that statute would be interpreted in the case where someone used a shiner to look at the hole card and then told everyone else about it. The knowledge of the dealer's hole card is "available to all players"...
That's actually only one small part of the law. Devices are covered in another part, as well as altering the odds in a game, as well as collusion with employees. The others are pretty cut and dry though, so no need to paste them here.
Quote: ajemeisterOn another note.. if a roulette wheel is shown to have a bias (discovered by an AP) is that cheating on the casino's part?
No, it's just a bad play on their part.
If the wheel has an adjustable bias and they select a new bias from round to round based on what large bets are in play, that's cheating.
Quote: ajemeister
back to a previous question... does anyone know if casinos are required to post the exact rules of all their games somewhere? or is it considered public knowledge and modification of the original game where everyone is expected to know the rules?
Too the best of my knowledge all tribal stores run on trust land and governed by IGRA do have to either have the game rules posted or readily available if asked.
This couldn't be any truer than in a Casino with inept pit bosses and mathematically challenged dealers!
Quote: BedWetterBetterLike they say "It's not cheating until you get caught!"
This couldn't be any truer than in a Casino with inept pit bosses and mathematically challenged dealers!
It's still cheating, even if they're not caught. It's my department's job to ensure pit staff are following proper dealing procedures. Even if they can't count, we can.
