Questions before I go on my first serious gambling trip.

So I'm going to be in Vegas in august and I have a few questions, mostly about bankroll. Currently I have 1200 set aside and I'm wondering if that's going to be enough for the weekend. I'm in town for four days and I hope to spend several hours each night gambling. I grew up in town and I've gambled on past visits with family, but this time I'm planning a trip specifically centered around gambling and I want to make sure that I don't do anything too risky.

My first questions concerns which series of craps bets might be better for my bankroll. Last time I gambled I played the pass line with odds and the come bet with odds whenever I felt I could afford it after that. I did well early on but later in my trip I saw how easy it was to loose a ton of money in one roll so I want to make more conservative bets this time around. At first I was considering only making a pass line with full odds, but when I play this way in a simulation I get bored quickly and I find I get angry when several rolls go by with neither a point or a 7 rolled. I've noticed that several people recommend making a pass line with odds and then placing the 6 and 8. My question is, if I'm playing at a 3 dollar table and I put $6 each on the 6 and 8, is there any difference to my bankroll compared to if I bet $12 dollars on a come bet with odds? It seems to me that the better bet for me personally is to avoid the place 6 and 8, but I want to ask the experienced experts here first.

Aside from low-roller craps I am considering stepping up to some higher minimum games. I'm thinking I'll probably spend 200-300 per buy-in for a total of 2-4 buy-ins at the craps table, leaving me with 300 or 400 to play other table games. Is this enough to spend a few hours at a nicer table on the strip? Is there anywhere that offers decent comps to players in that range where I should try to play? If I wanted to spend most of the night trying to drink fancy cocktails at the Wynn or something, what minimum should I expect and what's a good bankroll for low variance games like pai gow? One of the big draws of Las Vegas for me is playing in varied rooms with diverse people and if I sit in the El Cortez all trip that won't happen, so I'm willing to take some risks for a night or two at some nicer casinos.

Placing the 6/8 over a come bet is only for more action. Also, coming for 12 then putting in odds will increase your variance. I'd recommend the placing (along with pass/full odds) because it'll get you the action and keep your variance tolerable so that you won't bust out too fast.

NYNY is always my favorite destination for craps (trying to give you a reason to go south).

Quote: touristlocal

I want to make sure that I don't do anything too risky.

Unfortunately in Craps it's either risk boredom or risk money.

Quote: touristlocal

My first questions concerns which series of craps bets might be better for my bankroll. Last time I gambled I played the pass line with odds and the come bet with odds whenever I felt I could afford it after that. I did well early on but later in my trip I saw how easy it was to loose a ton of money in one roll so I want to make more conservative bets this time around. At first I was considering only making a pass line with full odds, but when I play this way in a simulation I get bored quickly and I find I get angry when several rolls go by with neither a point or a 7 rolled. I've noticed that several people recommend making a pass line with odds and then placing the 6 and 8. My question is, if I'm playing at a 3 dollar table and I put $6 each on the 6 and 8, is there any difference to my bankroll compared to if I bet $12 dollars on a come bet with odds? It seems to me that the better bet for me personally is to avoid the place 6 and 8, but I want to ask the experienced experts here first.

Regarding your original betting pattern: To me the only way to get bored waiting for your line bet to resolve is if the shooter is *not* rolling 7-outs. Wait till you start wondering how long that will continue, not at the get-go. Then make a Come bet. You might be there to catch the greatly fun situation of a shooter with one of those long steaks, in which case replace your Come bets and Line bets as they pay [don't go crazy with the Come bets]. If the 7-out is instead imminent, you might catch it just right and win the Come bet as the 7-out hits.

I am not an advocate of Place Bets since there is no free odds with them. Yes, it's one of the better house edges in the casino, usually. But you said you wanted less risk.

Fundamentally, the problem is you are asking for less variance and also less risk. I think you are going to get less variance if you go to the Place Bets from odds bets, but add more risk.

I am probably the wrong person to address your other questions, but wanted to add this: I am currently thinking one of the better ways to avoid frustration is indeed to bet the "Don't" if you want to play the free odds. If you are playing "right" you are taking the small end of the odds and this is very much subject to streaks of bad luck, irregardless of the fact they are 100% fair bets. I just find it demoralizing to lose all my big bets on streaks. When you lay odds, you are taking the side of the odds usually reserved for the Casino. You can skip laying the odds on 6 or 8, although technically you are giving up some free betting for the sake of less variance. Laying the free odds on a 10 or 4, you are supposed to win 2 out of 3. True, if you are only winning half the time, you are losing money, but you are less likely to get the immensely demoralizing 3 losses in a roll on your big bets. My current rule is 3 of those in a row on laying 10 or 4, time to walk away from the table. In simulation that seems to be working well for me. You should know I have not seen anyone else here, certainly not the Wizard, mention any reason to avoid the small end of the odds, so this just may be my thing.

[minor edits]

Four days with $1200? Maybe quarter slots will help you last but not much else. One bad run at the tables could mean a very miserable couple days ahead.

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Well, if you are playing $3 craps you should be fine, unless you go on a horriffic streak. Heck, I play at $10 tables often with only $300 and do ok. you just can't spread your bets out much and can't push the odds more than 1x. My advice is to play the PL with whatever odds you think is comfortable, let it go a few roles until you start getting a little bored, then throw a come bet out there. If you are still bored play the 6/8 for $6 if you don't already have it covered with a come/PL. If you have them already placed, then have make a 6 for you come point, take down your place bets and put the money on odds.

I'd also spend some time playing some $5 BJ..just be wary of 6/5. You can typically play that for hours and not kill your bankroll too awful much. Get some free drinks in there, and its practically a wash. As you mentioned, Pai Gow is a good game if you can find it for $10, which I'd think you could. If you want to play someplace nicer, go on a non-peak time and find either a $10 BJ or $10 craps table.

As far as Jerry's quarter slots recommendation, that sounds a bad idea to me. Unless you intend to play one line, you can burn through money as fast - or faster - than at a BJ table.

Quote: odiousgambit

Unfortunately in Craps it's either risk boredom or risk money.



Regarding your original betting pattern: To me the only way to get bored waiting for your line bet to resolve is if the shooter is *not* rolling 7-outs. Wait till you start wondering how long that will continue, not at the get-go. Then make a Come bet. You might be there to catch the greatly fun situation of a shooter with one of those long steaks, in which case replace your Come bets and Line bets as they pay [don't go crazy with the Come bets]. If the 7-out is instead imminent, you might catch it just right and win the Come bet as the 7-out hits.

I am not an advocate of Place Bets since there is no free odds with them. Yes, it's one of the better house edges in the casino, usually. But you said you wanted less risk.

Fundamentally, the problem is you are asking for less variance and also less risk. I think you are going to get less variance if you go to the Place Bets from odds bets, but add more risk.

I am probably the wrong person to address your other questions, but wanted to add this: I am currently thinking one of the better ways to avoid frustration is indeed to bet the "Don't" if you want to play the free odds. If you are playing "right" you are taking the small end of the odds and this is very much subject to streaks of bad luck, irregardless of the fact they are 100% fair bets. I just find it demoralizing to lose all my big bets on streaks. When you lay odds, you are taking the side of the odds usually reserved for the Casino. You can skip laying the odds on 6 or 8, although technically you are giving up some free betting for the sake of less variance. Laying the free odds on a 10 or 4, you are supposed to win 2 out of 3. True, if you are only winning half the time, you are losing money, but you are less likely to get the immensely demoralizing 3 losses in a roll on your big bets. My current rule is 3 of those in a row on laying 10 or 4, time to walk away from the table. In simulation that seems to be working well for me. You should know I have not seen anyone else here, certainly not the Wizard, mention any reason to avoid the small end of the odds, so this just may be my thing.

[minor edits]

See I would tend to think just the opposite. With the Don't odds you have a higher chance of winning smaller amounts, but you also have a still signficant risk of loosing large amounts, since you have to bet more than you win. If a player is going to have a lot of points working with DP and DC, then maybe that makes sense, but with less points working and a small bankroll, I'd probably error on the PL Odds rather than the Don't.

You didn't mention where you were staying. If you want lower limits, downtown has lots of them. Also some of the smaller casinos on the strip (Casino Royale, Bill's, Oshea's, etc) will spread $5 tables regularly. As was mentioned earlier, beware 6/5 payout. Royale has $3 craps with 20x odds available.

Generally, on the strip if you want 3/2 you will have a $10 minimum and even then you need to read the signage to be sure, particularly at Harrah's properties.

For 'cheap' drinks find a 25cent bar-top vpoker machine at a casino bar somewhere. You will have to play the max to get drinks but just play slow :) Just don't expect full pay machines. Some of the nicer casinos are setting the bar-top games to $1 denomination, but in my experience you don't have to play the max on those to get drinks.

And for something completely different, check out the beer pong games in the back of O'Sheas :)

Others can speak better on table game comps but these days I think you have to be playing green chips to even get a look.

As far as Jerry's quarter slots recommendation, that sounds a bad idea to me. Unless you intend to play one line, you can burn through money as fast - or faster - than at a BJ table.
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By quarter slots I meant 25c video poker. $1200 will very likely last 4 days playing at least 8 hours a day. Plus if he hits a royal or a few other big winners he could well go home ahead. Not to mention the very generous amount of comps he'd get for running all that coin through the machines.

I understand about the tables, however, that bad streak for going bust is so much more probable at the tables than the vp machines on a mildly volatile game.

Quote: JerryLogan

As far as Jerry's quarter slots recommendation, that sounds a bad idea to me. Unless you intend to play one line, you can burn through money as fast - or faster - than at a BJ table.
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By quarter slots I meant 25c video poker. $1200 will very likely last 4 days playing at least 8 hours a day. Plus if he hits a royal or a few other big winners he could well go home ahead. Not to mention the very generous amount of comps he'd get for running all that coin through the machines.

I understand about the tables, however, that bad streak for going bust is so much more probable at the tables than the vp machines on a mildly volatile game.

Yeah, I suppose....he would have to play just 1 credit though right? I've never had success playing VP, and I know strategy well enough. But at the same time, I get bored after playing for 20 minutes. I can't imagine playing 8hrs/day. To each his own though. I got the feeling from his post that he prefers table games over machines, but maybe both.

No, he could easily play 5 credits, but I think you're right in that he prefers table games. I'm gonna bet that he loses it before he comes home though and wishes he bored himself to tears on the vp machines instead.

Quote: JerryLogan

No, he could easily play 5 credits, but I think you're right in that he prefers table games. I'm gonna bet that he loses it before he comes home though and wishes he bored himself to tears on the vp machines instead.

Well, stastically in low HA edge game like craps he has ALMOST the same probability of doubling his bankroll as he does busting it out. I'm sure someone here who runs the simulations could tell us the exact number...of course the longer he plays the more it will grind away, but you could never grind away $1200 in 4 days playing just PL bets. The only thing that can bite you is variance.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I have a much better handle now on what bets I can afford. I'll probably avoid trying to step into anything with over a 10 dollar limit if people think there's no point. I'm also already familiar with what payoffs to expect from different games. Most importantly I want to guarantee everyone that I won't be playing on the 6:5 BJ tables, even if it is my only option for a game.

I don't know VP strategy and I love the atmosphere at table games, so I won't be playing VP even if in theory it is a better plan. I can loose money at craps and still enjoy myself, it's different with an automated kiosk taking your money.

I also probably overstated how much gambling i plan to do- three or four hours a night would probably be as much playing as I could handle, not 8+ hours. I'm a heavy gambler compared to most people I know, but probably a light gambler compared to posters here. I'll probably stick to buying in with a few hundred each night and then leaving the rest of my bankroll alone until the next day. Even if I go broke, I only moved away from Vegas 3 years ago, so I won't be stuck in town sitting around a coffee shop waiting for my plane. I can just spend more time with my friends or my dad or whatever.

I'll do my best to get another couple hundred just to be safe, otherwise I'm pretty confident I can gamble long enough on what I'm bringing as long as I don't hit an extended run of bad luck.

Quote: touristlocal

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I have a much better handle now on what bets I can afford. I'll probably avoid trying to step into anything with over a 10 dollar limit if people think there's no point. I'm also already familiar with what payoffs to expect from different games. Most importantly I want to guarantee everyone that I won't be playing on the 6:5 BJ tables, even if it is my only option for a game.

I don't know VP strategy and I love the atmosphere at table games, so I won't be playing VP even if in theory it is a better plan. I can loose money at craps and still enjoy myself, it's different with an automated kiosk taking your money.

I also probably overstated how much gambling i plan to do- three or four hours a night would probably be as much playing as I could handle, not 8+ hours. I'm a heavy gambler compared to most people I know, but probably a light gambler compared to posters here. I'll probably stick to buying in with a few hundred each night and then leaving the rest of my bankroll alone until the next day. Even if I go broke, I only moved away from Vegas 3 years ago, so I won't be stuck in town sitting around a coffee shop waiting for my plane. I can just spend more time with my friends or my dad or whatever.

I'll do my best to get another couple hundred just to be safe, otherwise I'm pretty confident I can gamble long enough on what I'm bringing as long as I don't hit an extended run of bad luck.

Best of luck. Enjoy El Co and the $3 tables. I'll be jealous.

My tips

-Set aside $300 for each day of play. If you go busto, don't gamble for the rest of the day. If you win, you can roll it over into the big bankroll and divide again accordingly.

-Don't play craps for more than $5 if you can help it. You're in Vegas, the land of $5 craps. Why not take advantage of those limits so you can get more action in? Do most of your craps gaming during the daytime, when limits might be lower. As far as bets, on a five dollar table I would place a line bet with as much odds are you can stomach (probably around 2x starting out, can press if you're winning), and one other come bet with odds. If you start hitting a lot of points, you can put up two come bets with odds. Resist the temptation to start placing a ton of come bets. In the alternative, placing the six and eight is fine, too, as long as you only place those numbers. Your variance will lessen at the expense of a greater house edge.

-Play table game at Wynn or Venetian. You will get the best drinks and service here, and feel like you are playing in a real froo-frah joint. Minimums are usually $15 for blackjack/pai gow poker, which is by no means extortionate. $150 should be enough bankroll for a pai gow session, $200 for blackjack (those are maybe 20% bust-out numbers if I had to eyeball it).

Oh, since someone was curious earlier and I forgot to answer, I'm staying at the Flamingo, in the cheap rooms for now. I'll probably ask or try to bribe someone for a better room, if only because I'm sharing it with 2 friends from AZ who might want their space privacy. My first job in Las Vegas was as a runner for an advertising agency downtown, some of the new development confuses me but generally I know how to get around the strip and downtown quick. I'll have a car and some nights I'll have rides from my friends. We should even have a Mormon designated driver with us.


Teddys that advice for the Wynn/Venetian is very helpful. I've heard about their drink service and I was hoping someone would encourage me. If my friends from AZ want to experience a casino that's also where I'd prefer to bring them, if only to impress them with fancy mimosas instead of risking that they get sexually harassed or something downtown.

Quote: touristlocal

Oh, since someone was curious earlier and I forgot to answer, I'm staying at the Flamingo, in the cheap rooms for now. I'll probably ask or try to bribe someone for a better room, if only because I'm sharing it with 2 friends from AZ who might want their space privacy. My first job in Las Vegas was as a runner for an advertising agency downtown, some of the new development confuses me but generally I know how to get around the strip and downtown quick. I'll have a car and some nights I'll have rides from my friends. We should even have a Mormon designated driver with us.


Teddys that advice for the Wynn/Venetian is very helpful. I've heard about their drink service and I was hoping someone would encourage me. If my friends from AZ want to experience a casino that's also where I'd prefer to bring them, if only to impress them with fancy mimosas instead of risking that they get sexually harassed or something downtown.

The Flamingo is an OK place, but you're SHARING a room with two other people? WTF?? Well, don't talk in your sleep, don't fart, don't get up and disturb them in the middle of the night, don't walk on eggshells when you take a dump hoping it doesn't stink up the joint, and don't go changing the oil.

Quote: JerryLogan

The Flamingo is an OK place, but you're SHARING a room with two other people? WTF?? Well, don't talk in your sleep, don't fart, don't get up and disturb them in the middle of the night, don't walk on eggshells when you take a dump hoping it doesn't stink up the joint, and don't go changing the oil.

You know Jerry, the goal of this site isn't to come on here and criticize the hell out of everyone that posts, and try to find faults with their personal info they care to share.

But since you have no problem with it......I'm sure you never had any real friends in your life, but if you did you'd realize that its pretty damn normal for 3 friends to stay in a room together on a drinking/gambling excursion. Hell, when I was in school, I've stayed with 10 other people in a beach-side hotel room...about half guys/half girls. That's what people do. I can tell you for damn sure I've never once cared about doing any of the options you gave while in the same room as any of them. In fact, if someone wasn't a disgustingly rude pig, that would be grounds for giving them crap. You ever have fun Jerry?

Quote: ruascott

You know Jerry, the goal of this site isn't to come on here and criticize the hell out of everyone that posts, and try to find faults with their personal info they care to share.

But since you have no problem with it......I'm sure you never had any real friends in your life, but if you did you'd realize that its pretty damn normal for 3 friends to stay in a room together on a drinking/gambling excursion. Hell, when I was in school, I've stayed with 10 other people in a beach-side hotel room...about half guys/half girls. That's what people do. I can tell you for damn sure I've never once cared about doing any of the options you gave while in the same room as any of them. In fact, if someone wasn't a disgustingly rude pig, that would be grounds for giving them crap. You ever have fun Jerry?

Did you just do what you accused me of doing??

You're dreaming if you think it's normal for 3 or even TWO people to share a room. Sure we all did it in college and we grossed each other out and laughed about it because we had a problem. It was called NO MONEY.

Here's the latest news ruascott or whatever name you hide behind: Grown ups stay one-to-a-room! Why should anyone who's an adult have to put up with the smelly antics and disgusting habits/snoring/hours of another? That's like taking a Captain and sending him back to boot camp for a few nights, then rationalizing it by claiming if it was alright "back then" then it's alright today. Remember the words of John Cougar Mellencamp in "Cherry Bomb": --We were young and we were improving.-- That's what it's all about.

One person to a bed is my rule, or a king bed with a significant other. To stick your nose up at sharing a room with someone is pretty foolish... unless you're planning to stay in the room alone for long periods of time. In this case you'd be saving a couple hundred bucks which could go towards an extra buy-in or a pair of show tickets. It's foolish to not share rooms - I might be a rare case but when I'm in Vegas I'm in my room for like 6 hours a night.

I really wasn't offended by Jerry's post, if that helps diffuse any tension. And while I am technically a "grown-up", I'm 23, I haven't yet gotten to the stage where I need my own private room or whatever and one of the girls I'm staying with just turned 21 and is pretty much only on the trip because we'd split the hotel room with her. If there's a sudden need for a new room I'll just get one for myself, and if I need a quiet room to sleep off a hangover I'll go stay with my parents or friends for a night.

I guess Vegas is a luxury destination for some people, but I'm not looking to be pampered or anything, just drink, eat and gamble for a few days and meet with some of my old friends on occasion while I'm doing it. Our room is probably going to be used as a place to store cheap drinks and to sleep during the day. I chose the hotel because it has a good location and I heard that the pool was nice for the low price a room costs. I would have liked to stay at Mandalay Bay, I've been to the pool and it is amazing, but it's too far south, and more importantly, it costs like four times as much as our Flamingo reservations on the weekend.

Guys, when you're young I guess money trumps comfort and privacy. I'm in my early 40's and as soon as I got out of college the room-sharing became a thing of the past. It took one business trip with a co-worker trying to save the company a few bucks that ended it for me. And whenever I've gone somewhere with ex-college friends since, there's NO WAY I'd be comfortable in the same room with somebody who doesn't wear a bra.

Depending on what your target is: several options to chose from....

All of these depend on your goals: Play a long time with minimal variance and get comped drinks while being social.. (with Craps as the main game).. in this case stick to passline/come with short odds.. the odds reduce the house edge but increase variance and are not rated.. if you wish to turn one play into some comps etc.. this isnt the best bet...

If its a combination of last longer AND rake in comps for future visits, you can't beat pai gow either tiles or poker... you can net the almighty minimum bet of $25 to get comps rolling AND if hit a game where everyone banks in turn against the house can REALLY milk the system.

Is the $1200 gambling money or total roll you are bringing? Strip clubs and or night clubs in your plans? If so, measure your roll at $600 and adjust accordingly... investigate risk of ruin vs. comp value if comps are sought after. If your maximum wager cannot exceed or hit $25 move downtown, they appreciate the play more and will send better offers, at the expense of house advantage. Remember.. in craps.. not all casinos figure the odds bet in play, so a $10 passline is your rating vs. the $40 to $110 you truly have at risk.

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Quote: JerryLogan

Did you just do what you accused me of doing??

Yes...I did exactly that. That's why I prefaced it with "Since you have no problem with it...."

Quote: ruascott

Yes...I did exactly that. That's why I prefaced it with "Since you have no problem with it...."

Strange....

I agree, I'd never share a room with a co-worker...but a close friend? That's absurd. Again, to each his own...I only responded to your comment because you seem hell-bent on insulting someone on every thread you post on.

Jackal- the 1200 is my gambling budget. I'm still not sure how much I'll have for the rest of the trip, but it should cover everything. I'm not planning on going to a strip club or any of the really expensive nightclubs, I'll probably drink and dance at the cheaper places or drink in my room/at the freakin' frog with my local buddies.

Thanks for your advice on comps. I'll be happy as long as I get drinks, but considering how often I come into town to see family or whatever I'd like if I could find a casino that will comp rooms and such for my level of play, just to always have the option of getting a room there while I'm in town. But considering how cheap rooms are right now it definitely isn't a priority.

Touristlocal:

Sorry to jump in late, but I would advise you to try playing Downtown. If $3 craps is what you want, El Cortez has a great $3 game running all the time. FWIW, my wife and I had a $1,000 budget between the two of us recently, and had a blast in four days Downtown. You should at least check it out for one night. Ride the bus.