Video Blackjack in Australia

(This is my inaugural post but I’ve been a long-time lurker. Love the site Wizard!)


I wonder if anyone else in Australia has come across the VegasStar video blackjack games. Very liberal rules – 3:2 BJ, S17, double any two cards, split aces, draw on split aces, late surrender (no double after split and no resplitting). Min bet $1, Max $100. It’s a four deck shoe which reshuffles after 105 cards dealt ie 50% pen. The Wizard’s calc says house edge of 0.31%.

The games are widely available in New South Wales (at least they are in Sydney) at pretty much every RSL/ League club. I think the games are made by Shufflemaster.

Seems like a very good game to me. Am I missing something?

Quote: maddog75

I wonder if anyone else in Australia has come across the VegasStar video blackjack games. Very liberal rules – 3:2 BJ, S17, double any two cards, split aces, draw on split aces, late surrender (no double after split and no resplitting). Min bet $1, Max $100. It’s a four deck shoe which reshuffles after 105 cards dealt ie 50% pen. The Wizard’s calc says house edge of 0.31%.

The games are widely available in New South Wales (at least they are in Sydney) at pretty much every RSL/ League club. I think the games are made by Shufflemaster.

Seems like a very good game to me. Am I missing something?

Is there any visual indication of when the shuffle happens? That's a problem I've run into with video blackjack machines.

Other than that possible catch, it sounds like you could slowly grind out a small edge on these machines. 50% penetration in a shoe isn't all that much. Hopefully someone else can provide you with actual numbers, I don't have much experience here, but you won't want to quit your day job.

Thanks fivespot. Yes, there is an indication of when the shuffle occurs, with the video dealer going through a truncated shuffling motion on screen. But there's no discard pile on the screen, so you have to guesstimate how far into the shoe you are.

I'm still a very VERY basic counter, still on a steep learning curve. And I realise 50% penetration is not great. But it's a machine, with no pit boss watching (so you can keep the count on your fingers, literally), and you can vary your bets wildly, from $1 to $100 and no one gives a hoot.

Quote: maddog75

Thanks fivespot. Yes, there is an indication of when the shuffle occurs, with the video dealer going through a truncated shuffling motion on screen. But there's no discard pile on the screen, so you have to guesstimate how far into the shoe you are.

I'm still a very VERY basic counter, still on a steep learning curve. And I realise 50% penetration is not great. But it's a machine, with no pit boss watching (so you can keep the count on your fingers, literally), and you can vary your bets wildly, from $1 to $100 and no one gives a hoot.

I kinda want to write a quick program to see how often you get different positive counts, and use that to compute a win rate per 100 hands, assuming you bet $100 when you have any edge and $1 when you don't. (I don't think it'll be very high, you just don't get enough crazy good counts with 50% pen.) But I should probably do real work instead :)

At the very least, it'll be good practice if you want to get better at counting.

Can you play multiple spots? That's an easy way to double your hourly once you've gotten more comfortable with the game. I've done it, it feels odd and conspicuous at first, but I've never gotten lasting attention for it.

Ugh, had half a response typed out and accidentally closed the browser... Now what was I saying... This is a beatable game, but because of the crappy PEN you'll want to implement the TC < +1 = $1 and TC >= +1 = $100 betting scheme. This, however, will lead to some wild variance and require a bankroll I highly doubt you have. Normally with a $100 big bet you'd want at least a $10k bankroll. This can be much better approximated with a sim, but this is a good place to start. With this crappy PEN and necessity for a larger spread (and why not if there's no PB to back you off), you're going to see so much more variance that you'll most certainly need a lot more than $10k. How much more? I'm not exactly sure. An educated guess would be something like $20-$30k.

Some quick 6D calculations (so your frequencies will be off a bit, but should be an 'okay window' to peek at) yield $23.42/hour. That might sound like a decent little wage, but remember the variance you'll have to fight through to reach it.

fivespot had a great question with: Can you play more than one hand if you want? If you could go from 1 hand of $1 to more the results would be approximately as follows:
2 hands of $100: $47.09/hour
3 hands of $100: $70.76/hour

Again, this would skyrocket your variance and bankroll requirements, but if you had the bankroll you're getting in to some good money per hour (with no PB to watch you). However, a great thing never lasts. If you were beating this machine up every day and they saw it was losing money, they would either watch it closer to catch/bar you, change the rules to make it not worth counting, or simply remove the game.

Thus, if you have $30k (or $50k if you can spread to 2 hands of $100, probably like $70k for 3 hands of $100) then I'd say this could be a great learning lesson. If it's your 'local' casino you want comps and plan to play at for years though, you probably can't smash this game without consequences. If it's not or you have other options in the area that aren't related, then it could be a great learning utility and provide some decent cash in the process.

Quote: Romes

Ugh, had half a response typed out and accidentally closed the browser... Now what was I saying... This is a beatable game, but because of the crappy PEN you'll want to implement the TC < +1 = $1 and TC >= +1 = $100 betting scheme. This, however, will lead to some wild variance and require a bankroll I highly doubt you have. Normally with a $100 big bet you'd want at least a $10k bankroll. This can be much better approximated with a sim, but this is a good place to start. With this crappy PEN and necessity for a larger spread (and why not if there's no PB to back you off), you're going to see so much more variance that you'll most certainly need a lot more than $10k. How much more? I'm not exactly sure. An educated guess would be something like $20-$30k.

Some quick 6D calculations (so your frequencies will be off a bit, but should be an 'okay window' to peek at) yield $23.42/hour. That might sound like a decent little wage, but remember the variance you'll have to fight through to reach it.

fivespot had a great question with: Can you play more than one hand if you want? If you could go from 1 hand of $1 to more the results would be approximately as follows:
2 hands of $100: $47.09/hour
3 hands of $100: $70.76/hour

Again, this would skyrocket your variance and bankroll requirements, but if you had the bankroll you're getting in to some good money per hour (with no PB to watch you). However, a great thing never lasts. If you were beating this machine up every day and they saw it was losing money, they would either watch it closer to catch/bar you, change the rules to make it not worth counting, or simply remove the game.

Thus, if you have $30k (or $50k if you can spread to 2 hands of $100, probably like $70k for 3 hands of $100) then I'd say this could be a great learning lesson. If it's your 'local' casino you want comps and plan to play at for years though, you probably can't smash this game without consequences. If it's not or you have other options in the area that aren't related, then it could be a great learning utility and provide some decent cash in the process.

Assuming its fair I doubt it will last long especially if it gives comps and someone does start counting it.

In my experience the casinos tend to not look at the over all numbers of a game before they make a hasty decision.

They act as soon as someone has a good run, even if they previously took in more than you current winnings.

If they are in many different places and he can afford to play it, I suggest he get started.

The offers may be significant and much less of a BR is needed.

A slightly different slant but Vegas Star Video Roulette is also flawed.

There is quite an extensive analysis of its performance written by a
guy in Australia based on data of 80,000 spins.

So it would be no surprise if the video blackjack had flaws as well

Quote: Romes

Some quick 6D calculations (so your frequencies will be off a bit, but should be an 'okay window' to peek at) yield $23.42/hour. That might sound like a decent little wage, but remember the variance you'll have to fight through to reach it.

How many hands per hour are you assuming? My experience with multi-spot video blackjack is that it's usually pretty slow.

Thanks for the replies folks. I am only a recreational player and I doubt I’ll ever load up to the level required. But it’s good to know the game can be pushed to an advantage. And yes, you can play multiple hands provided the seats are available. But its pretty much all low rollers at the games - playing 2 or 3 hands of $100 might get you noticed, eventually.

Interesting point that there may be flaws, similar with video Roulette. For mine I’m pretty confident it is a fair deal – the regulators here in Australia go to great lengths to make sure the games are fair (as I’m sure they do elsewhere) and Shufflemaster is a serious company. But if smarter chaps than me say it aint so then I will be wiser for it. I seem to do OK on the game and generally walk away up a bit, unless I get greedy.

Is this it? www.star.com.au/.../Game Guide - Vegas Star Blackjack.pdf

Quote: maddog75

Thanks for the replies folks. I am only a recreational player and I doubt I’ll ever load up to the level required. But it’s good to know the game can be pushed to an advantage. And yes, you can play multiple hands provided the seats are available. But its pretty much all low rollers at the games - playing 2 or 3 hands of $100 might get you noticed, eventually.

Interesting point that there may be flaws, similar with video Roulette. For mine I’m pretty confident it is a fair deal – the regulators here in Australia go to great lengths to make sure the games are fair (as I’m sure they do elsewhere) and Shufflemaster is a serious company. But if smarter chaps than me say it aint so then I will be wiser for it. I seem to do OK on the game and generally walk away up a bit, unless I get greedy.

I like you're attitude and thinking. You would probably make a good AP.


Good luck.

Side note: If you ever do find something significant you might want to ask someone privately for help or generalize more when asking publicly.


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That's it, that's the exact game. They have the game at Star Casino (the only casino in the whole of Sydney, in fact, the whole state). But licensed clubs are also allowed to offer the game, of which there are hundreds of such clubs. Literally one or two in every suburb of Sydney.

Quote: maddog75

That's it, that's the exact game. They have the game at Star Casino (the only casino in the whole of Sydney, in fact, the whole state). But licensed clubs are also allowed to offer the game, of which there are hundreds of such clubs. Literally one or two in every suburb of Sydney.

Do they have all the exact same rules? Some may have different numbers of decks, penetration and rules.

Quote: maddog75

That's it, that's the exact game. They have the game at Star Casino (the only casino in the whole of Sydney, in fact, the whole state). But licensed clubs are also allowed to offer the game, of which there are hundreds of such clubs. Literally one or two in every suburb of Sydney.

Have you seen the game in any of the clubs or just at Star casino?

Yes, I've seen the game in other places, with the same rules.

Quote: maddog75

Yes, I've seen the game in other places, with the same rules.

Does it tell you the penetration in the rules ?

Quote: AxelWolf

Does it tell you the penetration in the rules ?

Yes - the published rules are as follows: "Four decks of 52 cards are used....After 105 cards have been dealt, the following game will commence with a shuffling of all cards before a new hand is dealt"

All the video blackjack games I have seen in Sydney are Vegas Star, and all have the same rules, although I've only seen a few of them and haven't needed to go looking, given my local has one. I suspect that the rules would be identical where ever the game is found in the state. Opperators are not allowed to offer two versions of the same branded game with different rules in the same venue, I know that for a fact.

All in all it seems punters get a fairly good game on these machines. Although only rarely do you see people playing anywhere close to correct strategy. Aussies in general prefer to sit at the slot machines mindlessley chewing through their cash, praying for luck; most treat the blackjack terminals in the same way.

Quote: maddog75

there's no discard pile on the screen, so you have to guesstimate how far into the shoe you are.

... or use an unbalanced count.

Quote: fivespot

How many hands per hour are you assuming? My experience with multi-spot video blackjack is that it's usually pretty slow.

My numbers were per the frequencies. Of the available 100 hands I believe ~88 of them were played (sitting out anything less than TC -1 and ignoring above TC +8 because they're so infrequent). So this is a per hour wage, so long as you're getting ~88 hands per hour. As you correctly pointed out, the numbers would be lower if the game were slower (but that doesn't differ from a regular BJ game).

Quote: Dieter

... or use an unbalanced count.

Ding ding ding.