Why dont the Casinos get rid of their AP problem by simply using the CSM
Poll
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29 members have voted
Quote: mcallister32000 logic above. 00 roulette, bastardizing the 3cp ante bonus pay table, and increased buffet prices are also the fault of counters right Bob? They increase the house edge because they can and people still play.
That was probably the least intelligent thought process I have ever read and I now feel dumber after reading it.
Gamblers will play anything and everything. They come to casinos to lose their money, and that's exactly what they're going to do. Worse odds allow that outcome to come faster. Casinos are happy and so are gamblers for some reason. Card counting didn't cause worse odds. It was inevitable that odds would get worse. Gamblers just don't care, and casinos need to make money
Also, many counters aren't that good and/or their GF/wife will lose more on slots than they win at blackjack anyway.
Quote: mrcleanIf a casino is worried about counting they should adopt a ruleset that the average BS player wouldn't mind and your weekend player wouldn't even notice but counters would think twice.
8 Decks.
Dealer hits soft 17.
DAS any first 2 cards.
RS to 4 hands
No resplit Aces
No hitting split aces.
BJ pays 3:2.
70% Penetration
I have to believe the weekend player would notice waiting 15 minutes to be able to play. No midshoe on an 8 deck low stakes table! Max midshoe entry at $200 or so does the trick.
No surrender
Table Max 8x Min
No mid-shoe entry.
Those rules are probably beatable but would it be worth the effort?
Quote: mrclean... Table Max 8x Min ...
I don't count and will sometimes deviate from BS. Yeah, you can call me a recreational gambler.
But I'd have a lot of objection to that rule.
More than once I've played a standard progression pattern of bumping my bets when winning to the point where I'll be betting over $120 per hand when I started at $10.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI don't count and will sometimes deviate from BS. Yeah, you can call me a recreational gambler.
But I'd have a lot of objection to that rule.
More than once I've played a standard progression pattern of bumping my bets when winning to the point where I'll be betting over $120 per hand when I started at $10.
Not only this... but what about Mr Green Chipper at the $10 tables? Do you really think at the $10 everyone's min bet is $10 (asking mrclean)? All the time I play $10 tables and have people betting $25 as their min, progressing up. Last time I was in Vegas first night I had some guy at my table betting quarters then progressed up and bet like $500 a hand for the rest of the shoe (and it was a negative count, so he was not counting I assure you). You really want to lose out on this guys $500/hand bets when he wasn't even playing basic strategy just to avoid the $30/hour I might make at that table? So then what, it's 8x whatever your min bet is? Then you could have wongers come in and flat bet $500 a hand, never increasing their bet even.
Quote: Toes14CSM?
It is true that google won't kick this out unless you include the word 'blackjack' or something similar, so it is possible you are serious
csm - continuous shuffle machine
asm - automatic s.m.
But, if you want to get started, read this:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/07/shuffling.html
Full paper here:
http://statweb.stanford.edu/~susan/papers/casino.pdf
Quote: teliotNo one seems to have made this point, but CSM's definitely do not get rid of all AP issues at blackjack, not even card counting. They even introduce new plays not possible without them. I'll let the top APs here tell all.
...I do believe we're intentionally not mentioning that =). I doubt there will be a total "tell all" =D.
Quote: teliotNo one seems to have made this point, but CSM's definitely do not get rid of all AP issues at blackjack, not even card counting.
I guess you didn't see the fourth post on the first page:
Quote: DJTeddyBearCSMs do not solve every problem.
There are plenty of AP opportunities on games that use CSMs.
Right, missed it. Still waiting for those APs to chime in.Quote: DJTeddyBearI guess you didn't see the fourth post on the first page:
Quote: teliotNo one seems to have made this point, but CSM's definitely do not get rid of all AP issues at blackjack, not even card counting. They even introduce new plays not possible without them. I'll let the top APs here tell all.
But, if you want to get started, read this:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/07/shuffling.html
Full paper here:
http://statweb.stanford.edu/~susan/papers/casino.pdf
The overwhelming perception in the US is that you cannot do CC against the CSM. I have yet to dig into The Wizard and other experts write-up on this subject.
However perception matters more than the truth which the article you quoted said it is possible to CC against the CSM.
Anyway where I play they discard the first card in every round and put the busted cards immediately into the CSM.
Would this defeat the CC.
Not likely going to happen.Quote: teliotRight, missed it. Still waiting for those APs to chime in.Quote: DJTeddyBearI guess you didn't see the fourth post on the first page:
Real APs normally just play stuff until eventually the word gets out. Once that happens, AP enthusiasts , who really don't care about actually doing much AP, read and hear about it. Then the enthusiasts run to their favorite forums and show off what they now know.
Most people like to talk about AP rather than actually do it. Some People are very good at reading and understanding and relaying AP without ever doing it.
You can usually tell a real AP from an enthusiast by how much information they give out publicly.
It's very rare you will see a high end well off AP saying anything publicly on a forum, unless they are trying to get a book deal or something.
I don't want to say names, but there's a few members here that I have never meet before. They give little dribs and drabs of information or past plays. I can tell they are well banked very skilled AP's
Quote: Avincowcan someone pm me how to count CSMs. thanks.
No. Seriously though. Anyone who has really figured something exploitable out. Isn't just giving it away to you. That's if there is anything to give away...which I think is questionable at best. Some very knowledge people on this forum say that CSM's are beatable. They are smarter and more invested in this than me, or 99.99% of the other BJ players on the planet. Having said that i really doubt that a CSM is beatable in the real world. At least not one that is working properly. I'd love to be proved wrong.
Quote: Avincowcan someone pm me how to count CSMs. thanks.
Just wait for "How to count cards in CSM blackjack games" by Frank Scobete. $19.95 book and $29.95 video. Similar titles to follow by other "pro's".
Quote: 1BBTrue but the increase in hands per hour could negate any savings unless more breaks are taken.
I was recently watching friends play an Indian casino game in which the CSM jammed constantly. I think they dealt 3 hands in the half hour that I watched, so the 'more hands per hour' argument is not always a guarantee.
Quote: studmuffnI was recently watching friends play an Indian casino game in which the CSM jammed constantly. I think they dealt 3 hands in the half hour that I watched, so the 'more hands per hour' argument is not always a guarantee.
That can happen with regular multi-deck shufflers. All pits have back up shufflers to switch out for ones that are acting up. If it continued I'm sure they switched it out.
ZCore13
" If you’re any kind of counter at all I would forget about playing against a CSM, it isn’t worth the bother."
Also where I play the casino place the busted cards immediately into the CSM and burn the first card at the start of every round.
I’ve noticed that the CSM (Continuous Shuffler Machine) at the blackjack table does not shuffle ALL of the cards at the end of each hand. There are a few cards left in the shoe part of the machine (anywhere from 1 to 20 or so) that are not shuffled. Is there any way this can be used to advantage? For example, I was thinking that there is a lower (but still not zero) probability of having a card repeated two hands in a row. Sit out if there were a lot of high cards last hand . . . bet higher if there are a lot of low cards last hand. The CSM I saw used four decks so, on a full table, there are actually quite a few cards played each hand and you could potentially get a true value of plus/minus one if you made the simplifying assumption that none of those would repeat. Maybe enough to skew the odds?
Chuck from New York
You’re right, the discards are not mixed among all the cards but can not be placed close to the top of the shoe. I don’t know the exact size of this buffer but it is about 10-20 cards I think. As a card counter it would probably be safe to use a true count from just the last hand played and off the top of a shoe. When converting to the true count you will rarely get anything far from +/-1. If you’re any kind of counter at all I would forget about playing against a CSM, it isn’t worth the bother.
Quote: Avincowcan someone pm me how to count CSMs. thanks.
Two words -- Depth charging.
Quote: Deck007You’re right, the discards are not mixed among all the cards but can not be placed close to the top of the shoe....
There is some good stuff about how to beat Card Craps at Discount Gambling, even against a shuffler, based on the "buffer."
Quote: WizardThere is some good stuff about how to beat Card Craps at Discount Gambling, even against a shuffler, based on the "buffer."
Unfortunately there is no Crap game that I have seen or heard off in Asia. I believe it is purely an American game.
Quote: WizardTwo words -- Depth charging.
I don't get it. Even if we are generous and assume that there is a 20 card buffer, how can you depth charge a 6D with ~10% penetration? Are we going from table min to table max?
Quote: Avincowcan someone pm me how to count CSMs. thanks.
teliot
No one seems to have made this point, but CSM's definitely do not get rid of all AP issues at blackjack, not even card counting. They even introduce new plays not possible without them. I'll let the top APs here tell all.
But, if you want to get started, read this:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/07/shuffling.html
Full paper here:
http://statweb.stanford.edu/~susan/papers/casino.pdf
Avincow
I don't get it. Even if we are generous and assume that there is a 20 card buffer, how can you depth charge a 6D with ~10% penetration? Are we going from table min to table max?
I am trying to make sense of all these posting. Doesn't teliot says cc is countable with CSM.
I assume your reply to The Wizard assume there is a buffer. Where I play there is no buffer. So can I assume CSM is not countable.
Quote: AvincowI don't get it. Even if we are generous and assume that there is a 20 card buffer, how can you depth charge a 6D with ~10% penetration? Are we going from table min to table max?
Think single deck.
Quote: WizardThink single deck.
But CSM must be played with minimum 4 decks.
Quote: Deck007But CSM must be played with minimum 4 decks.
I was speaking more to the issue of shuffling after every round than the actual shuffling machine. What I'm saying is 3-2 single deck is beatable even if the dealer shuffles after every round, as long as you can play all seven spots.
