Paper towels vs. Hand Dryers (split from AC Open Forum)

Quote: vendman1

They are obviously trying to save money on anything they can. The restrooms were not stocked with paper towels on Thursday (they have hand driers) but were stocked with them Fri/Sat. I mentioned this to a restroom attendant and he said they are instructed to not stock them except on weekends. Wow.

Wow, that is really sad. Just one item on a long, LONG list of things that show you the direction AC is going (item #1 being the decaying carcass of the Revel). But how personal. I hate hand dryers; I will use them for a first pass but even the new super-powered ones (AirBlade or similar) don't quite get your hands completely dry. I always finish with at least one paper towel where offered.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Wow, that is really sad. Just one item on a long, LONG list of things that show you the direction AC is going (item #1 being the decaying carcass of the Revel). But how personal. I hate hand dryers; I will use them for a first pass but even the new super-powered ones (AirBlade or similar) don't quite get your hands completely dry. I always finish with at least one paper towel where offered.

It's not uncommon a lot of businesses are switching to them, especially ones with many high traffic bathrooms ( such as casinos).
They save the environment (less paper usage, and a lot of businesses try to be green friendly).
They save time (the janitor does not have to spend time checking all the paper dispensers).
They save money (one less product to stock and continuously refill).
And, it lowers garbage output (paper towels can add up fast to filling garbage cans).

I also like towels, but it makes total sense why buisnesses don't. Plus it's good to be a positive influence on the environment.

Quote: Gandler

It's not uncommon a lot of businesses are switching to them, especially ones with many high traffic bathrooms ( such as casinos).
They save the environment (less paper usage, and a lot of businesses try to be green friendly).
They save time (the janitor does not have to spend time checking all the paper dispensers).
They save money (one less product to stock and continuously refill).
And, it lowers garbage output (paper towels can add up fast to filling garbage cans).

I also like towels, but it makes total sense why buisnesses don't. Plus it's good to be a positive influence on the environment.

I use Dyson dryers in my restaurant bathrooms and then offer a hand sanitizing station just outside the rest rooms for those who are concerned about touching the door after washing. I have had very few complaints and it is a win/win for the reasons you list above.

Nothing's worse than when you use the dyson air blade that has other peoples disgusting hand water on it(pools up at the bottom). Sprays you in the face everytime. Feels more sanitary wiping your hands on your pants rather than taking a blast in your face.

Don't wash your hands. Problem solved.

Quote: Intheknow

Don't wash your hands. Problem solved.

Don't pee on your hands.

Not from the most objective source but this cites a study:

"Warm air hand dryers cause an average 254 percent increase in the number of bacteria on the palms of people’s hands as well as contaminating the surrounding area, according to a recent study by University of Westminster in London.The study also showed that on average, paper towels reduce bacteria on the hands by 77 percent."

http://www.tork.com.au/Tork-and-your-Business/Why-Tork/TorkHygiene/Warm-air-hand-dryers-increase-bacteria-on-hands/

Quote: 7star4now

Not from the most objective source but this cites a study:

"Warm air hand dryers cause an average 254 percent increase in the number of bacteria on the palms of people’s hands as well as contaminating the surrounding area, according to a recent study by University of Westminster in London.The study also showed that on average, paper towels reduce bacteria on the hands by 77 percent."

http://www.tork.com.au/Tork-and-your-Business/Why-Tork/TorkHygiene/Warm-air-hand-dryers-increase-bacteria-on-hands/

That's discouraging. And new information to me. I thought hand dryers had been proven more sanitary.

Hand wash is an effective tool to stop the spread of decease during epidemics. When most people are healthy hand washing is not so important. It's not a pleasant site to watch people who used bathroom and did not wash their hands, but in reality it's not as dangerous as many people might think.

I read somewhere urine is sterile. Made me feel much better about those who don't wash after.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I read somewhere urine is sterile. Made me feel much better about those who don't wash after.

I guess I shouldn't inform you of the mechanics behind male urination, then. It would spoil the illusion ;)

Anyone remember the old cloth hand driers? It was like a towel sewn in a loop. Pull down and "new" towel came out, but it was just previously used towel being circulated?

Would You Rather Touch A Steering Wheel Or A Toilet Seat?
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1291419/would-you-rather-touch-a-steering-wheel-or-a-toilet-seat/#7dHvGACIXWwGKMXT.99

Mythbusters to the rescue. They found paper towels
were far better than air dryers for removing bacteria.

Penny Wise: Pound Foolish.

They annoy customers by being so cheap, put their customers in a super-cheap mode of thinking and someone with moist hands transfers germs far too easily for such a penny pinching attitude to persist in an establishment full of various eateries and chips.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I read somewhere urine is sterile. Made me feel much better about those who don't wash after.

It's sterile to you, not to others.

Quote: BoulderDamIt

It's sterile to you, not to others.

It's sterile when it leaves your body, but
goes bad pretty fast.

Quote: Face

It was like a towel sewn in a loop. Pull down and "new" towel came out, but it was just previously used towel being circulated?

It's not a loop. There's a clean roll and a dirty roll. As you pull down, new towel comes off the clean roll, and a gear mechanism winds the dirty towel onto the other roll.

More like a cassette tape, less like an 8-track.

Those cloth towel thingies did need to have the towels taken out and laundered from time to time, typically by commercial laundry companies (like do uniforms & floor mats).

Quote: FleaStiff

Penny Wise: Pound Foolish.

They annoy customers by being so cheap, put their customers in a super-cheap mode of thinking and someone with moist hands transfers germs far too easily for such a penny pinching attitude to persist in an establishment full of various eateries and chips.

Cheap??? How the hell do you please everyone? I don't even know what you mean by "various eateries and chips", but I have not had many complaints about not having towels (less than 3). My customer base is very multi generational from young hipsters who love my craft selection (simple pitch here, 30 drafts, over 200 bottles of craft beer) to older customers out for a nice casual dinner, to families where dad and mom can have a beer while enjoying 2 pizzas for $19.99. They all use the restroom and my Dyson Air dryers. I offer a hand sanitation station outside the bathroom and do not offer towels. We can argue the merits of germs from all offerings but in the real world, keeping customers safe, which we do according to PA Food Code, is all that matters.

If you have facts that change things in the REAL world, please send them to the PA Dept of Ag and they will perhaps discuss changing the law. If you are not sure how to contact them, please PM me for an address or use Google.

Meanwhile I am saving money and saving the Planet!

Hate the environment. If it were up to me, I'd offer plastic towels.

Quote: FleaStiff

Penny Wise: Pound Foolish.

They annoy customers by being so cheap, put their customers in a super-cheap mode of thinking and someone with moist hands transfers germs far too easily for such a penny pinching attitude to persist in an establishment full of various eateries and chips.

If they dry their hands properly they will not be moist.

I don't think most people have a significant problem with them. (Until this thread I have never even heard anyone complain about their presence).

I don't really care which they have but if given the option at a place between using paper towel or hand dryer I will use the paper towel because it's faster.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I read somewhere urine is sterile. Made me feel much better about those who don't wash after.

I believe it is sterile as well (unless you have a UTI). It's just water + various dissolved solids. However, while #1 may be sterile, #2 most certainly is not! :P

Quote: Boz

Cheap??? How the hell do you please everyone? I don't even know what you mean by "various eateries and chips", but I have not had many complaints about not having towels (less than 3).

Boz, yours sounds like a good setup, but I have to agree with FleaStiff. When I see hand dryers, I think "cheap." The Dyson Air Blades are miles better than the standard dryers, but I still prefer towels. Also, if your customers are anything like me, they wouldn't complain about no towels unless they were regulars. However, the fact that you do not offer towels may prevent them from becoming regulars.

But, hey, if it works for your place, great! And like I said, your setup -- Dysons (= hands dry) + sanitizer (= hands disinfected) accomplishes the goal.

Oh, and I think Flea was referring specifically to casinos with his "various eateries and chips" comment, meaning multiple people handle the casino chips (= germapalooza). And with so many eating options, they (casinos) should offer a more sanitary way for cleaning your hands than just hand dryers. If this was Flea's intent, I must agree with him.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Face

It was like a towel sewn in a loop. Pull down and "new" towel came out, but it was just previously used towel being circulated?

It's not a loop. There's a clean roll and a dirty roll. As you pull down, new towel comes off the clean roll, and a gear mechanism winds the dirty towel onto the other roll.

More like a cassette tape, less like an 8-track.

Those cloth towel thingies did need to have the towels taken out and laundered from time to time, typically by commercial laundry companies (like do uniforms & floor mats).

Yup. We actually still have a few of these at work. Janitorial crew replaces the used rolls with freshly laundered rolls at the end of the day. This is probably more "environmentally friendly" (or is the term "sustainable" now? They keep changing it!) than either paper towels or hand dryers.

But, I think most people see the setup and envision Face's version and just say, "Yuck!"

I liked those loop (roller) hand dryers better than either paper or air. The janitor staff had to keep up with them, but they were washable fabric and did a great job of drying your hands. I wish more of them were out there still.

Quote: Joeman

Yup. We actually still have a few of these at work. Janitorial crew replaces the used rolls with freshly laundered rolls at the end of the day. This is probably more "environmentally friendly" (or is the term "sustainable" now? They keep changing it!) than either paper towels or hand dryers.

But, I think most people see the setup and envision Face's version and just say, "Yuck!"

Lol, thanks for clearing that up. I didn't even know they still existed, as the last time I saw one was in one specific restaurant, and the last time I saw it I wasn't but 7 years old.

I also hate this switch; I've always preferred paper towels. Cleaner, and actually get the hands dry without having to go 3 passes through the obnoxiously loud unsanitary hand blaster 3000.

The dyson blades work but it is almost impossible to dry your hands without touching the sides. Most places don't keep them very clean. I prefer the super-blast normal style ones. I think the brand name is "xlerator" or something like that. If there is a traditional style air dryer I will typically just leave with wet hands.

Of course towels are better but I can see why businesses don't like them. A few high-end restaurants in my area actually provide a stack of terry towels and a hamper for the used ones.

Years ago I was in the restroom at Railroad Pass. The water, soap and towel dispenser were all automated. As I was drying my hands I said to another gentleman, "This bathroom does just about everything for you." Getting the joke he replied, "Pretty soon they'll do that too."

These are not two separate rolls. They are 1 continuous roll. Comes out of the dispenser you dry your hands and when you pull the next clean section down it rolls back up and into another roll above the original, but is never 2 separate rolls. I used to be a janitor.

Quote: thlf

These are not two separate rolls. They are 1 continuous roll. Comes out of the dispenser you dry your hands and when you pull the next clean section down it rolls back up and into another roll above the original, but is never 2 separate rolls. I used to be a janitor.

Sorry, 1 length of fabric, with a spindle on each end. Does that agree with your recollection?

Quote: Dieter

Sorry, 1 length of fabric, with a spindle on each end. Does that agree with your recollection?

I don't know about thlf but 1 length of fabric was my recollection too. And at gas stations the toilet paper came in individual 5" by 5" single-plys. This was back in the day when the soap dispensers in filling station restrooms dispensed a soap that had the texture of Tide. And you paid for gas after you filled up instead of before, and there was no self-serve. And you could work on your bicycle for free in front of the service station bays and they would lend you their tools. And all gas stations had coke machines with coke in bottles. You could collect the bottles and take them to the grocery store for redemption. For fun you could jump on the hose to make the bell ring (or just blow on the end), and an attendant would come out thinking there was a car that needed gas. Ha ha. And if you were really lucky the attendants would let you ride on the hydraulic car lift. I remember filling coke bottles with the gas that was left in the pump hoses after the gas station closed. Stick a paper towel in the end and the gas would soak up. Light the end and throw it in the wash from an overpass. Molotov cocktail. A big bottle made a mushroom cloud. This was fun at 4 in the morning.

Quote: Greasyjohn

I don't know about thlf but 1 length of fabric was my recollection too.

I think we are all talking about the same thing, just a difference in semantics.

Quote: Greasyjohn

This was back in the day when the soap dispensers in filling station restrooms dispensed a soap that had the texture of Tide

Oh, man, GJ, you just brought back memories of my elementary school days! We had that powder stuff in the bathrooms. I'm not sure if it actually cleaned your hands or just sanded the top layer of skin off of them!

Quote: Boz

Cheap??? How the hell do you please everyone?

You don't. You try to, but you please yourself with your best efforts and go on from there to protect your business by protecting your customers.

Remember that Pizza, Beer, Salad Bar place in Oregon? The poor guy didn't do anything wrong. He ran a very clean place. Those red-robed cultists chose his salad bar to spread germs so the voters in the town would all be sick on election day. He went out of business. Nobody blamed him; but nobody ever gave him a second chance either.

Or the man who installed a camera filmed the bad personal hygiene habits of his young employees... he did that only after seeing his business dwindle. It was a long time coming back to prior levels.

"eateries and chips"... finger food and then fingers on casino chips transmit germs. People go to your restaurant and get sick a few times, they won't be back. Whether its for the beer they like or their favorite Black jack game,,,, they won't be back.

You can put rolls of sand paper out instead of toilet paper... it may be cheaper but it will drive your customers away.

Towels, paper towels, electronic dryers, super dryers... the main thing is to be sure the job gets done because all you really have is your reputation.

Quote: FleaStiff

You don't. You try to, but you please yourself with your best efforts and go on from there to protect your business by protecting your customers.

Remember that Pizza, Beer, Salad Bar place in Oregon? The poor guy didn't do anything wrong. He ran a very clean place. Those red-robed cultists chose his salad bar to spread germs so the voters in the town would all be sick on election day. He went out of business. Nobody blamed him; but nobody ever gave him a second chance either.

Or the man who installed a camera filmed the bad personal hygiene habits of his young employees... he did that only after seeing his business dwindle. It was a long time coming back to prior levels.

"eateries and chips"... finger food and then fingers on casino chips transmit germs. People go to your restaurant and get sick a few times, they won't be back. Whether its for the beer they like or their favorite Black jack game,,,, they won't be back.

You can put rolls of sand paper out instead of toilet paper... it may be cheaper but it will drive your customers away.

Towels, paper towels, electronic dryers, super dryers... the main thing is to be sure the job gets done because all you really have is your reputation.

Who gets salad with pizza or beer? No wonder the place went under.

Quote: FleaStiff

Those red-robed cultists chose his salad bar to spread germs so the voters in the town.

I knew a guy years ago who worked for
the county health dept. He would never
eat anything from a salad bar because he
said they're really just a giant petri dish and
are constantly breeding bacteria. He would
only eat things just cooked or under a hot
light.

Old movie. Guy walks in to a diner, sits down at the counter, opens the menu and asks the employee "What do you recommend?"
Response: The place around the corner.

good recollections. thanks.

Quote: FleaStiff

Old movie. Guy walks in to a diner, sits down at the counter, opens the menu and asks the employee "What do you recommend?"
Response: The place around the corner.

lol....where I work they put the paper towels on a delay so you have to wait for a second one.

Quote: ontariodealer

lol....where I work they put the paper towels on a delay so you have to wait for a second one.

I actually agree with that move. You really do only need one to get things mostly dry enough. But with a stack of paper towels I'll try to grab two but with wet fingers I end up with anywhere from 2-5.

Quote: Greasyjohn

I don't know about thlf but 1 length of fabric was my recollection too. And at gas stations the toilet paper came in individual 5" by 5" single-plys. This was back in the day when the soap dispensers in filling station restrooms dispensed a soap that had the texture of Tide. And you paid for gas after you filled up instead of before, and there was no self-serve. And you could work on your bicycle for free in front of the service station bays and they would lend you their tools. And all gas stations had coke machines with coke in bottles. You could collect the bottles and take them to the grocery store for redemption. For fun you could jump on the hose to make the bell ring (or just blow on the end), and an attendant would come out thinking there was a car that needed gas. Ha ha. And if you were really lucky the attendants would let you ride on the hydraulic car lift. I remember filling coke bottles with the gas that was left in the pump hoses after the gas station closed. Stick a paper towel in the end and the gas would soak up. Light the end and throw it in the wash from an overpass. Molotov cocktail. A big bottle made a mushroom cloud. This was fun at 4 in the morning.

Yup.
Check.
Ditto.
Exactly.
Er...nope. lol.
And...really nope. Really? You were a mad bomber as a kid? Yikes!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Yup.
Check.
Ditto.
Exactly.
Er...nope. lol.
And...really nope. Really? You were a mad bomber as a kid? Yikes!

Hey Babs, another fun one: Take two straws and stick one end into the other. Do it for another pair of straws. Tape the two double straws together forming a plus sign. Stick pins one inch apart through the straws all facing the same direction and stick birthday candles on each pin. Connect the 4 ends of the straw-cross to a large plastic trash bag. Hold the trash bag up with the straws on the ground and light the candles. When the trash bag fills with air the whole thing takes off like a hot air balloon. (Do this at night for a great UFO.) Disclaimer: Not a good idea.

This is so stupid I almost don't want to post it. Okay, I feel my arm being twisted so here goes. The casinos in my area have different paper towel dispensers depending on which of the dozens of their restrooms you visit. There's the motion detector that you pass your hand under, the manual pull from the roll type and folded paper towels in holders on the counter tops.

Would you believe that the latter are routinely stolen. They're stuffed into shopping and other bags along with tissue boxes, all kinds of condiments and anything else that is not nailed down. I have a good friend in security, a retired State Trooper, who has mentioned this often. I have personally witnessed it many times including yesterday. Could that be a reason that the counter top holders are being replaced with other options?

Yesterday's offender was yet another "bus lady" as I call them. This is someone who arrived by bus and is usually waiting for the return trip home having lost their money and now faced with the dreaded idle time. This is both comical and sad. Comical because they don't try that hard to hide their ill gotten gains. It's as if they feel entitled since they have once again contributed to the casino. Sad for many reasons that don't have to be listed.

I'm not going to stereotype or disclose any demographics but it's usually the same group of people. The bus/buses mostly go to Flushing or a certain part of Manhattan.

Quote: 1BB

This is so stupid I almost don't want to post it. Okay, I feel my arm being twisted so here goes. The casinos in my area have different paper towel dispensers depending on which of the dozens their of restrooms you visit. There's the motion detector that you pass your hand under, the manual pull from the roll type and folded paper towels in holders on the counter tops.

Would you believe that the latter are routinely stolen. They're stuffed into shopping and other bags along with tissue boxes, all kinds of condiments and anything else that is not nailed down. I have a good friend in security, a retired State Trooper, who has mentioned this often. I have personally witnessed it many times including yesterday. Could that be a reason that the counter top holders are being replaced with other options?

Yesterday's offender was yet another "bus lady" as I call them. This is someone who arrived by bus and is usually waiting for the return trip home having lost their money and now faced with the dreaded idle time. This is both comical and sad. Comical because they don't try that hard to hide their ill gotten gains. It's as if they feel entitled since they have once again contributed to the casino. Sad for many reasons that don't have to be listed.

I'm not going to stereotype or disclose any demographics but it's usually the same group of people. The bus/buses mostly go to Flushing or a certain part of Manhattan.

You see people all the time come into fast food eateries, order their meal, ask for a water cup, and fill it with cola. I would love to see restaurants get rid of all-you-can-drink beverage bars--but they won't. It's like when 800 numbers first came out; once one company has them then everybody has to have them. Then the cost is passed on to the customer. The only people that get the calls for free are the people that don't patronize the business.

I once saw a lady at a fast-food restaurant open up a napkin dispenser and take out half the napkins. I should have said "Why don't you just take the whole dispenser?" But I didn't. I would love to see a manager at a fast-food restaurant walk up to a patron's table and pick up the clear water cup filled with cola and give a tounge lashing. I'd call the company and start a drive for "Employee of the Year."

This is why so many of our kids are so screwed up. Their life is the equalivant of a clear water cup filled with cola--and nobody does or says anything.

Quote: Greasyjohn

You see people all the time come into fast food eateries, order their meal, ask for a water cup, and fill it with cola. I would love to see restaurants get rid of all-you-can-drink beverage bars--but they won't. It's like when 800 numbers first came out; once one company has them then everybody has to have them. Then the cost is passed on to the customer. The only people that get the calls for free are the people that don't patronize the business.

I once saw a lady at a fast-food restaurant open up a napkin dispenser and take out half the napkins. I should have said "Why don't you just take the whole dispenser?" But I didn't. I would love to see a manager at a fast-food restaurant walk up to a patron's table and pick up the clear water cup filled with cola and give a tounge lashing. I'd call the company and start a drive for "Employee of the Year."

This is why so many of our kids are so screwed up. Their life is the equalivant of a clear water cup filled with cola--and nobody does or says anything.

Well said GJ, well said.

My .02 on hand drying. Maybe the new blade model hot fecal contaminated air is more sanitary than the old ones, but I absolutely won't use one. To me it just blows farts on my hands at a hundred miles per hour. On the old loop cloth hand towel dryer, it careful those were not bad to use. The whole thing is about the money, of course.

I do think in some cases public bathroom owners are stepping over nickels to pick up penny's, IMO. I don't really see how using a fart blower is really better for the environment than a cloth machine which requires the cloth be laundered. How much cheaper is it really to use that much electricity versus a paper towel or two? I have visited many lavatory's as have we all where the machine is running and no one is using it. Desperate people will dry their hair with them after scrubbing up at a rest station along the road, I guess that is one good thing?

I don't touch the restroom door handles for obvious reasons. I think if the door has to be grabbed going one direction it should be on the way in, not the way out as people could then have sanitary hands. Yeah, I use an extra towel to grab the door handle, sometimes I wait for someone else to grab it, or in a worst case scenario I will use my shirt tail. If it costs the owner that much, put it on my tab. As a matter of fact, when I meet a restroom attendant working in the "lavs" in casino's I make a point of tipping them. I have yet to meet one yet who wasn't genuinely appreciate.

As for the people that have to steal toilet tissue or towels after playing slots, the losers easily pay for the tissue bandits. Maybe next time you see someone stealing a box of tissue, throw them a dollar and say something appropriate?

Moving on, how about toilet tissue? How do you like those Mega rolls, where there has to be a full hundred miles of the lowest quality tissue known to man on it?
I will not wipe myself with that stuff except for in absolute desperation. I hate public toilets anyway. I tend to travel with my own premium grade, lotion, etc, versus the offered to the masses "for free" products.

Sorry if the difference in your business making a profit or not comes down to whether or not a patron uses paper, or "the blade". I see electric hand dry only and immediately think "cheap ***hole". FWIW, I would not eat in an establishment like that, it speaks to managements attitude about hygiene entirely. I can only imagine the shortcuts being taken in the kitchen.

Good for the vendors who have the sanitation dispensers available and doing their part to help contain the spread of disease, I am very glad to see casinos finally start to put them out. If they think about it, what does it cost to have a gambler too sick to gamble. Keep them healthy and on the floor spending money.