Tom Brady...a god?
The fact is that if Seattle had run the ball in from the half yard line as they probably should have, Brady wouldn't have been MVP and he wouldn't have joined the 4 superbowl win club. Instead he would be a medicore 3-3 in superbowl, with 3 straight losses.
Now, I know I have used some "should haves" and "could haves", and things happen that's part of football. But I am just saying Brady's role in the pivotal seconds....he was standing on the sidelines....cheerleading. His destiny turned on a dime from a 3-3 superbowl quarterback with 3 straight SB losses to being placed with the elite on a play that he had nothing to do with.
disclaimer: I had no money wagered on anything in the superbowl, so my thoughts are just thoughts, not crying over spilled milk.
Quote: kewljSince the superbowl ended 3 hours ago, I have watched a number of different post game shows and different commentators anointing Tom Brady a god. He joins Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw as 4 time superbowl winners. Ok, I'll give him that even though I believe they were both 4-0 while he is 4-2. But in my mind, Brady didn't win that game. He had good numbers 37-50, 4 TD, but did have 2 interceptions.
I agree with you on this, especially with respect to Montana. Those two Picks Brady threw tonight are two more than Montana threw in all four of his Super Bowl games...and they were both 100% Brady's fault. Further, sure Brady breaks the SB TD record, but he had two more (losing) games with which to do it.
If we get into talking about careers, between Brady and Bradshaw, please. I don't care that Bradshaw went 4-0 in Super Bowls, Bradshaw threw nine SB TD's against four Picks and his 112.7 SB QB Rating is exclusively due to yards per attempt, no other reason. He's a gun-slinger who played slightly better than mediocre football for a long time (which is kind of the argument for those who think Bledsoe should be in the HoF) and Bradshaw's career QB Rating is 70.9. You might recognize a 70.9 QB Rating as being 4.4 lower than Tim Tebow's.
You have a great point with Brady v. Montana, though, and I agree with you completely. Brady's career numbers (particularly TD-INT ratio) are somewhat better, but if you want to dub someone a, "God," with respect to playing in the big one, Montana was nearly perfect, while Brady, with his career SB QB Rating of 95.3 has certainly been very good, but with a TD/INT ratio of only 3:1, not particularly unstoppable.
Quote:The fact is that if Seattle had run the ball in from the half yard line as they probably should have, Brady wouldn't have been MVP and he wouldn't have joined the 4 superbowl win club. Instead he would be a medicore 3-3 in superbowl, with 3 straight losses.
I disagree with your conclusion, here. If NE would have called a TO when they should have, SEA would have probably scored and Brady would have had 1:00 on the clock to try to drive them to FG range (and try to win in OT) or to put them in the end zone. They win in OT, Brady is probably the MVP unless Gostkowski kicks a long one to get them there and a long one for the win, and if Brady drives them the distance in 1:00, he's the MVP without question.
That said, I agree about Brady v. Montana. It's a QB who has performed extremely well in the Super Bowl vs. a QB who was an absolute freaking Divine Force in the Super Bowl. He's a myth. Montana's Super Bowl performances were something that should only be theoretically possible.
Quote: Mission146
If NE would have called a TO when they should have, SEA would have probably scored and Brady would have had 1:00 on the clock to try to drive them to FG range (and try to win in OT) or to put them in the end zone. They win in OT, Brady is probably the MVP unless Gostkowski kicks a long one to get them there and a long one for the win, and if Brady drives them the distance in 1:00, he's the MVP without question.
Whoa! Hold on a second, Mission. You are ASSUMING about 4 different things and then drawing a conclusion from that. You are flagged as a homer (homer...not homo).
I will agree though that it was very surprising to see coach Belichick NOT call a time out after the Lynch run that took the ball to the half yard line. There was indeed a minute left and preserving time would have been the proper play. It was very uncharacteristic to see him not recongnise such a fundamental time management issue. He is usually the best at time management.
Brady -salary cap. Montana no salary cap. But I do agree with most thatQuote: Mission146I agree with you on this, especially with respect to Montana. Those two Picks Brady threw tonight are two more than Montana threw in all four of his Super Bowl games...and they were both 100% Brady's fault. Further, sure Brady breaks the SB TD record, but he had two more (losing) games with which to do it.
If we get into talking about careers, between Brady and Bradshaw, please. I don't care that Bradshaw went 4-0 in Super Bowls, Bradshaw threw nine SB TD's against four Picks and his 112.7 SB QB Rating is exclusively due to yards per attempt, no other reason. He's a gun-slinger who played slightly better than mediocre football for a long time (which is kind of the argument for those who think Bledsoe should be in the HoF) and Bradshaw's career QB Rating is 70.9. You might recognize a 70.9 QB Rating as being 4.4 lower than Tim Tebow's.
You have a great point with Brady v. Montana, though, and I agree with you completely. Brady's career numbers (particularly TD-INT ratio) are somewhat better, but if you want to dub someone a, "God," with respect to playing in the big one, Montana was nearly perfect, while Brady, with his career SB QB Rating of 95.3 has certainly been very good, but with a TD/INT ratio of only 3:1, not particularly unstoppable.
I disagree with your conclusion, here. If NE would have called a TO when they should have, SEA would have probably scored and Brady would have had 1:00 on the clock to try to drive them to FG range (and try to win in OT) or to put them in the end zone. They win in OT, Brady is probably the MVP unless Gostkowski kicks a long one to get them there and a long one for the win, and if Brady drives them the distance in 1:00, he's the MVP without question.
That said, I agree about Brady v. Montana. It's a QB who has performed extremely well in the Super Bowl vs. a QB who was an absolute freaking Divine Force in the Super Bowl. He's a myth. Montana's Super Bowl performances were something that should only be theoretically possible.
Montana is Godlike. And this is coming from someone whos team lost twice to Joe. BTW I meant it when I said take the red rifle to your new team.
Quote: kewljWhoa! Hold on a second, Mission. You are ASSUMING about 4 different things and then drawing a conclusion from that. You are flagged as a homer (homer...not homo).
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just saying that those are possibilities. My point was that you can't categorically state that Brady is not the MVP if SEA scores on their last offensive drive. There are still very conceivable ways that Brady comes out of that game the MVP. Personally, as it stands, I think you can make a good argument for Butler on the strength of that one play. Not only did that play seal the deal, but it was an impeccable jump on the ball and a great catch.
Quote: mdhBrady -salary cap. Montana no salary cap. But I do agree with most that
Montana is Godlike. And this is coming from someone whos team lost twice to Joe. BTW I meant it when I said take the red rifle to your new team.
Who is the Red Rifle? Who is our Quarterback now? I haven't looked yet. Are we still going with Bortles, or is Henne in contention for the starting job? Henne has had a much better career than Bortles had a year last year. I don't even know that Henne is terrible, though he's certainly not very good. He hasn't played for anybody good either, though.
Quote: Mission146I'm not assuming anything, I'm just saying that those are possibilities. My point was that you can't categorically state that Brady is not the MVP if SEA scores on their last offensive drive. There are still very conceivable ways that Brady comes out of that game the MVP. Personally, as it stands, I think you can make a good argument for Butler on the strength of that one play. Not only did that play seal the deal, but it was an impeccable jump on the ball and a great catch.
I think you are being silly. What we are talking about is the play that was intercepted. That occurred with 20 seconds left. If Seattle runs the ball in for a TD, they kick off, probably a squib type kick to eat up time and Brady would have about 13 seconds to go 50 yards just to get in FG range. Regardless of timeouts, that is 2 plays...and against the best defense in the league....that knows exactly what you are doing. Not likely.
But I do agree with the Butler argument. That one play WAS the game. I would have been ok, with him being MVP on the strength of that one game winning play. I know others would argue that if others, such as Brady had not played as well as they did, they wouldn't have been in position for that play to even matter. I can see that argument too, but don't like it.
Andy Dalton(bengals).Quote: Mission146Who is the Red Rifle? Who is our Quarterback now? I haven't looked yet. Are we still going with Bortles, or is Henne in contention for the starting job? Henne has had a much better career than Bortles had a year last year. I don't even know that Henne is terrible, though he's certainly not very good. He hasn't played for anybody good either, though.
Quote: kewljI think you are being silly. What we are talking about is the play that was intercepted. That occurred with 20 seconds left. If Seattle runs the ball in for a TD, they kick off, probably a squib type kick to eat up time and Brady would have about 13 seconds to go 50 yards just to get in FG range. Regardless of timeouts, that is 2 plays...and against the best defense in the league....that knows exactly what you are doing. Not likely.
I know that, I'm just saying that, if we're going to discuss what should have happened, there should have been a minute left in the game. You admitted that you are getting into, "Shoulds," so I threw another one out there.
In the context of SEA scoring on that play, yes, I agree that a NE TD or FG would have been very unlikely.
Quote:But I do agree with the Butler argument. That one play WAS the game. I would have been ok, with him being MVP on the strength of that one game winning play. I know others would argue that if others, such as Brady had not played as well as they did, they wouldn't have been in position for that play to even matter. I can see that argument too, but don't like it.
I agree with this 100%. If that wasn't Picked, it's a TD, or worse, another play where they do the right thing and have Lynch pound it in. The only position NE would be in, if not for that Pick, is the position of needing to score in fifteen seconds.
Quote: mdhAndy Dalton(bengals).
Oh. I didn't know he was called that. I think we should definitely try to get him if we can, and draft a good WR while we're at it. The Jags really need help all-around, I was looking at team stats, we suck at everything. I had to get into Fumbles Recovered just to find something where we are in the middle of the pack.
Dalton has a 1.5:1 TD:INT ratio, and he's been very healthy, playing every game of his career. He can also scoot, if he has to, but he fumbles a good bit. He also gets sacked a good bit, and will continue to enjoy eating turf if he signs with the Jags, so that's just par for the course, I suppose.
Quote: Mission146Oh. I didn't know he was called that. I think we should definitely try to get him if we can, and draft a good WR while we're at it. The Jags really need help all-around, I was looking at team stats, we suck at everything. I had to get into Fumbles Recovered just to find something where we are in the middle of the pack.
Dalton has a 1.5:1 TD:INT ratio, and he's been very healthy, playing every game of his career. He can also scoot, if he has to, but he fumbles a good bit. He also gets sacked a good bit, and will continue to enjoy eating turf if he signs with the Jags, so that's just par for the course, I suppose.
He also chokes on clutch plays.
Two years ago vs SD his foul up allowed us into the playoffs. He choked again this season too.
The odd thing is, he was two different Quarterbacks this year. He had some absolutely amazing games and some down right horrible ones.
Quote: BoulderDamItOh wow, I just realized how late it is. Technically my birthday.
Happy birthday, you share one with my GF.
Quote: Mission146Happy birthday, you share one with my GF.
Right on! I'm happy to know that I share it with something other than a rodent afraid of it's own shadow ;)
Quote: BoulderDamItRight on! I'm happy to know that I share it with something other than a rodent afraid of it's own shadow ;)
Also my brother-in-law, fwiw.
Hey, isn't there a math problem out there about birthday coincidences? I wonder where a person could find it? (joke)
The woulda-shoulda-coulda's in the last 2 minutes are huge. So many strange things happened. And I was holding my breath when the Pats were compacted into the end zone; thought they might take an intentional safety to move out of there and still win by 2. I bet the Wizard was quaking in his boots right then...lol.
Quote: beachbumbabsAlso my brother-in-law, fwiw.
Hey, isn't there a math problem out there about birthday coincidences? I wonder where a person could find it? (joke)
The woulda-shoulda-coulda's in the last 2 minutes are huge. So many strange things happened. And I was holding my breath when the Pats were compacted into the end zone; thought they might take an intentional safety to move out of there and still win by 2. I bet the Wizard was quaking in his boots right then...lol.
I bet a lot of Vegas was. Both a possible Safety or OT situation were possible. Would have been a lot of money changing hands.
I don't think throwing it is as bad as they're making it out to be. If the ball is dropped, the clock stops, and you still got 2 more chances at it. I don't know what the chance of an interception is on the goal line, but I know it's nowhere near 100%.
Brady jumping up and down when they intercepted the ball on the goal line -- that was pretty cool.
Unbelievable catch by Seattle just a few plays prior to that. Without a doubt, one of the best plays I've seen in quite a while.
Also, WTF was up with the punt at the beginning of the game? If I remember correctly, Seattle player bumps/hits/knocks into the punter's plant leg, which should have been (I believe) a 15 yard penalty and automatic 1st down. Looked like a pretty text-book play where they should have definitely thrown the flag.
The Steelers defense won those 4 superbowls in the 70's every bit as much as Bradshaw.
The 49ers of the 80's were the last great pre-salary cap era team. They were loaded at every position, they outspent everybody. In fact when the salary cap did kick in, they were penalized for violating it.
The Patriots of 2003-present....have benefited from the combo of Brady/Belichick and the unique chemistry they seem to possess (or maybe they cheat and push the envelope on rules, but that's an argument for another day). But the early SB's the Pats won were won more on defense too. This years team also had a great Def. The 10 years between titles, would have been shorter had they had a better D a couple of those years. They've played in I believe 9 conference title games in the last 13 or 14 years. That's a remarkable run of organizational success in a league designed to encourage parity.
So while all these QB's are great, I think the 4 titles for each of them, is do more to the success of the franchise they played for more than their individual greatness.
My ranking of the three 1.Montana, 2.Brady, 3.Bradshaw. But it's like choosing between Filet Mignon and Lobster...they're all good.
You have to admit one thing: that ending certainly was a miracle...
Quote: RSAlso, WTF was up with the punt at the beginning of the game? If I remember correctly, Seattle player bumps/hits/knocks into the punter's plant leg, which should have been (I believe) a 15 yard penalty and automatic 1st down. Looked like a pretty text-book play where they should have definitely thrown the flag.
By "flag", do you mean the challenge flag?
The call was not reviewable. Presumably, a coach or captain can ask the calling official to confer with the other officials about the call, but the replay cannot be used in that instance, just as Seattle couldn't ask for a review of the pass interference "non-call" in the fourth quarter.
The Replay System will cover the following play situations only:
(a) When the on-field ruling is governed by the Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
1. Scoring plays, including the ball breaking the plane of the goal line.
2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end zone, and end line.
3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
5. Whether there has been a touchback, when the on-field ruling involves a runner’s momentum, or whether a kick touched the pylon.
(b) Passing plays:
1. Whether a pass was complete, incomplete or intercepted in the field of play.
2. Whether a fumble by a Quarterback (Passer) was a pass.
3. Whether a forward pass has been touched by any player.
4. Whether a pass has been thrown forward or backward.
5. Whether a forward pass has been thrown from beyond or behind the line of scrimmage.
6. Whether a forward pass has been thrown from behind the line of scrimmage after the ball has been beyond the line.
(c) Dead Ball: When the on-field ruling is:
1. a runner down by defensive contact, and the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble;
2. a runner out of bounds, and the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble;
3. an incomplete forward pass, and the recovery of a fumble, or the recovery of a backward pass, by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action following the fumble or backward pass; or
4. a loose ball out of bounds, and it is recovered in the field of play by an opponent or a teammate in the action after the ball hits the ground.
(d) Other reviewable plays:
1. When the on-field ruling is a runner not down by defensive contact.
2. The position of the ball with respect to a first down.
3. Whether a kick has been touched.
4. Whether a Field Goal or Try attempt has crossed below or above the crossbar, inside or outside the uprights when it is lower than the top of the uprights, or has touched anything.
5. Whether more than 11 players were on the field at the snap.
6. Whether there has been an illegal forward handoff.
7. Whether a loose ball in play has struck a video board, guide wire, sky cam, or any other object.
Note that among the things that cannot be reviewed: whether a field goal attempt that may or may not have gone over an upright was "between" the uprights; this is also in the NCAA replay rules.
Quote: ThatDonGuyBy "flag", do you mean the challenge flag?
The call was not reviewable. Presumably, a coach or captain can ask the calling official to confer with the other officials about the call, but the replay cannot be used in that instance, just as Seattle couldn't ask for a review of the pass interference "non-call" in the fourth quarter.NFL RULE 15-9-4 - Reviewable Plays
The Replay System will cover the following play situations only:
(a) When the on-field ruling is governed by the Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
1. Scoring plays, including the ball breaking the plane of the goal line.
2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end zone, and end line.
3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
5. Whether there has been a touchback, when the on-field ruling involves a runner’s momentum, or whether a kick touched the pylon.
(b) Passing plays:
1. Whether a pass was complete, incomplete or intercepted in the field of play.
2. Whether a fumble by a Quarterback (Passer) was a pass.
3. Whether a forward pass has been touched by any player.
4. Whether a pass has been thrown forward or backward.
5. Whether a forward pass has been thrown from beyond or behind the line of scrimmage.
6. Whether a forward pass has been thrown from behind the line of scrimmage after the ball has been beyond the line.
(c) Dead Ball: When the on-field ruling is:
1. a runner down by defensive contact, and the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble;
2. a runner out of bounds, and the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble;
3. an incomplete forward pass, and the recovery of a fumble, or the recovery of a backward pass, by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action following the fumble or backward pass; or
4. a loose ball out of bounds, and it is recovered in the field of play by an opponent or a teammate in the action after the ball hits the ground.
(d) Other reviewable plays:
1. When the on-field ruling is a runner not down by defensive contact.
2. The position of the ball with respect to a first down.
3. Whether a kick has been touched.
4. Whether a Field Goal or Try attempt has crossed below or above the crossbar, inside or outside the uprights when it is lower than the top of the uprights, or has touched anything.
5. Whether more than 11 players were on the field at the snap.
6. Whether there has been an illegal forward handoff.
7. Whether a loose ball in play has struck a video board, guide wire, sky cam, or any other object.
Note that among the things that cannot be reviewed: whether a field goal attempt that may or may not have gone over an upright was "between" the uprights; this is also in the NCAA replay rules.
I mean THERE WAS NO PENALTY.
Quote: RS
I mean THERE WAS NO PENALTY.
I thought they did call a penalty but it was a "running into the kicker" penalty (5 yards) as opposed to a "roughing the kicker" penalty (15 yards).
If I am not mistaken it was 4th down and six yards to go and they declined the penalty because it would not have been a first down.
Quote: DRichI thought they did call a penalty but it was a "running into the kicker" penalty (5 yards) as opposed to a "roughing the kicker" penalty (15 yards).
They did, but the replay showed that the defender hit the punter's "plant leg" while the "kicking leg" was in the air. According to the rulebook, this is supposed to be called as the 15-yard roughing penalty.
Quote: ThatDonGuyThey did, but the replay showed that the defender hit the punter's "plant leg" while the "kicking leg" was in the air. According to the rulebook, this is supposed to be called as the 15-yard roughing penalty.
Wasn't he blocked into the Kicker on that play?
Quote: BoulderDamItWasn't he blocked into the Kicker on that play?
Not at all. It should have been a 15 yarder by the book, but it was not a terrible call to only make a it a 5 yarder.
Quote: kewljSince the superbowl ended 3 hours ago, I have watched a number of different post game shows and different commentators anointing Tom Brady a god. He joins Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw as 4 time superbowl winners. Ok, I'll give him that even though I believe they were both 4-0 while he is 4-2. But in my mind, Brady didn't win that game. He had good numbers 37-50, 4 TD, but did have 2 interceptions.
The fact is that if Seattle had run the ball in from the half yard line as they probably should have, Brady wouldn't have been MVP and he wouldn't have joined the 4 superbowl win club. Instead he would be a medicore 3-3 in superbowl, with 3 straight losses.
Now, I know I have used some "should haves" and "could haves", and things happen that's part of football. But I am just saying Brady's role in the pivotal seconds....he was standing on the sidelines....cheerleading. His destiny turned on a dime from a 3-3 superbowl quarterback with 3 straight SB losses to being placed with the elite on a play that he had nothing to do with.
disclaimer: I had no money wagered on anything in the superbowl, so my thoughts are just thoughts, not crying over spilled milk.
Yes, football is a team sport and judging individuals by "rings" or "wins" is dumb. But that's the narrative and sports media needs a narrative. Also sports media is also dumb.
He's a great quarterback, among the greatest. Any other quantification is just speculation and opinion.
Quote: thecesspitNot at all. It should have been a 15 yarder by the book, but it was not a terrible call to only make a it a 5 yarder.
I was under the impression even TOUCHING his plant leg would be 15 yard penalty. Although, I wasn't aware there could be a 5-yard penalty.
I don't compare him to any other QB. There's Montana, Staubach and everyone else. And thats no real sleight to Brady, Bradshaw, Elway, Greise, etc.
Quote: RSIn hindsight, it's really damn easy to say they shoulda ran the ball in from the one yard line. Perhaps that still would have been the best decision. But you don't get that 20/20 hindsight vision going into the play.
I don't think throwing it is as bad as they're making it out to be. If the ball is dropped, the clock stops, and you still got 2 more chances at it. I don't know what the chance of an interception is on the goal line, but I know it's nowhere near 100%.
Brady jumping up and down when they intercepted the ball on the goal line -- that was pretty cool.
Unbelievable catch by Seattle just a few plays prior to that. Without a doubt, one of the best plays I've seen in quite a while.
Also, WTF was up with the punt at the beginning of the game? If I remember correctly, Seattle player bumps/hits/knocks into the punter's plant leg, which should have been (I believe) a 15 yard penalty and automatic 1st down. Looked like a pretty text-book play where they should have definitely thrown the flag.
There were several missed calls, I think, starting with that punt. They only got 5 yards, they should've gotten 15 (as the announcers said) because of contact with the anchor leg. Also, there was a SEA pass down the middle that was missed when the receiver tripped while disengaging from his defense, where the defender reached out (already down) and grabbed his toes as he was breaking away. Should've been pass interference.
Still several miracle moves in the game, especially that pass reception at the 11 juggled by the SEA player on the far sideline you mentioned before. Would've been the highlight of the game except for the interception by the Pats at the end. Which was an ironic payback for Brady getting intercepted on the 1 in the first series of the game. Crazy.
The real miracle from my POV was oh, so close. That SEA defensive lineman doesn't jump, I just KNOW there would've been a safety. And big bux in my pocket. Lol....ya got away with one, Wizard.
