Should the Wizard charge for posting in the Betting Systems section?

Quote: Gandler

I am sure. Even in history there are cases of people martingaling themselves to oblivion on ancient games of chance and bets. But there are plenty of problem gamblers who don't use systems, particularly since most modern gamblers with serious problems are slot players hence systems don't apply.

But at the same time if a player is not a problem gambler systems are no worst or better than flat betting. For example if I go to a casino with a 500 dollar bankroll, and I am fine losing all of it for fun, what difference does it make to anyone if I flat bet or test out different systems for kicks? Some people use systems out of the pure entrainment value as it adds more thought to the game.

If systems are no better or worst than flat betting then logically there is nothing wrong with them as long as you don't exceed your bankroll and understand you are playing for fun.

Because let's face it if you are not an AP and are playing purely for fun, when is flat betting the table minimum for hours on end ever as thrilling or gives you that rush as when you are making progressively bigger bets?

Come on now, you know what i'm taking about. System bettors who claim it works in order to make money.
I don't mind marty
I have used marty many times when playing free chips and such. I know it can't be a money maker.

You're dead wrong about "slot systems don't apply" (Rob singer con types)

Even better there are winning slot "systems" I can't call anything that's +EV a system. To me, It's simply called AP nowadays.

Quote: AxelWolf

Come on now, you know what i'm taking about. System bettors who claim it works in order to make money.
I don't mind marty
I have used marty many times when playing free chips and such. I know it can't be a money maker.

You're dead wrong about "slot systems don't apply" (Rob singer con types)

Even better there are winning slot "systems" I can't call anything that's +EV a system. To me, It's simply called AP nowadays.

I agree, I am not arguing with you on that point. However slot players who are addicts don't use positive EV or AP methods they are addicted to playing the machine, in fact some research shows that they get annoyed when they win since it messes up the flow of the game.

Let's face it, most by far problem gambler in 2014 (and there are many psychological papers to back this up) are slot players, not only do they constitute the large majority, they are also usually the most severe. Slot machines are dangerous psychologically to problem gamblers because they attract both gamblers and people who are probe to video stimulation.

I am not trying to sound like I am railing against a lot machines, if you want to responsibly play one then that is your choice. But the fact remains that by far the large large majority of problem gamblers are slot players.

And slot gamblers by and large (this is also statistically backed up) don't care about systems they play for the stimulation, they often don't even care about winning or losing as long as the game goes on.

So the point I was trying to make is that problem slot players are not really a significant market for system readers. Yes there are books on how to win slot machines, but slot addicts do not buy them, their main demographic is people who are desperate and are looking at ways to make extra money. Problem Slot players just want to lose money and be stimulated they don't want to spend time reading.

Problem gamblers who get addicted to baccarat systems or roulette systems certainly exist but they are a fringe minority. I forget the exact figures of slot players but it was so high I would be willing to bet problem baccarat players are well under 5% of the problem gambling population if tyat(in America, I would concede that in Macau it may be higher).


But again I agree yes there are people who are obsessed that their baccarat system works. But there are also players who are convinced astrology can be used to win (I have met several). The fact is there are certain types of people who are more prone to superstitious and irrational beliefs and act without evidence or research but you can't hold that against everyone and it certainly should not be justification to censor the whole section.

If you want to shut down sections based on superstition and ruining people's lives then the religion section should be shut down much more urgently than the betting system section...

Quote: Gandler

I agree, I am not arguing with you on that point. However slot players who are addicts don't use positive EV or AP methods they are addicted to playing the machine, in fact some research shows that they get annoyed when they win since it messes up the flow of the game.

Let's face it, most by far problem gambler in 2014 (and there are many psychological papers to back this up) are slot players, not only do they constitute the large majority, they are also usually the most severe. Slot machines are dangerous psychologically to problem gamblers because they attract both gamblers and people who are probe to video stimulation.

I am not trying to sound like I am railing against a lot machines, if you want to responsibly play one then that is your choice. But the fact remains that by far the large large majority of problem gamblers are slot players.

And slot gamblers by and large (this is also statistically backed up) don't care about systems they play for the stimulation, they often don't even care about winning or losing as long as the game goes on.

So the point I was trying to make is that problem slot players are not really a significant market for system readers. Yes there are books on how to win slot machines, but slot addicts do not buy them, their main demographic is people who are desperate and are looking at ways to make extra money. Problem Slot players just want to lose money and be stimulated they don't want to spend time reading.

Problem gamblers who get addicted to baccarat systems or roulette systems certainly exist but they are a fringe minority. I forget the exact figures of slot players but it was so high I would be willing to bet problem baccarat players are well under 5% of the problem gambling population if tyat(in America, I would concede that in Macau it may be higher).


But again I agree yes there are people who are obsessed that their baccarat system works. But there are also players who are convinced astrology can be used to win (I have met several). The fact is there are certain types of people who are more prone to superstitious and irrational beliefs and act without evidence or research but you can't hold that against everyone and it certainly should not be justification to censor the whole section.

If you want to shut down sections based on superstition and ruining people's lives then the religion section should be shut down much more urgently than the betting system section...

I agree with everything you just said .

Quote: AxelWolf

I have seen systems destroy peoples lives. .

So your solution is don't discuss them at all
so people remain clueless? Does that really
make sense? We advance by debunking that
which doesn't work, not by hiding it under
the rug.

Quote: EvenBob

So your solution is don't discuss them at all
so people remain clueless? Does that really
make sense? We advance by debunking that
which doesn't work, not by hiding it under
the rug.

From the guy who hides his magic system for roulette under a rug... priceless.

Quote: thecesspit

From the guy who hides his magic system for roulette under a rug... priceless.

Under his rug, under his toupee: to deny the world the benefit of his Secret Knowledge should be a criminal offense.

So many gambling minds filled with mush seeking to find The True And Proper Path.

Quote: EvenBob

So your solution is don't discuss them at all
so people remain clueless? Does that really
make sense? We advance by debunking that
which doesn't work, not by hiding it under
the rug.

I agree. The most useful threads on here are often those that dissect and debunk flawed thinking or math. Also among the most interesting.

Quote: thecesspit

From the guy who hides his magic system for roulette under a rug... priceless.

And wising up a chump at no extra charge.

Quote: EvenBob

So your solution is don't discuss them at all
so people remain clueless? Does that really
make sense? We advance by debunking that
which doesn't work, not by hiding it under
the rug.

We? Possibly you. by age 6 I knew Bigfoot and BS betting system were hoaxes. Some people will always believe in both.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I agree. The most useful threads on here are often those that dissect and debunk flawed thinking or math. Also among the most interesting.

Am I right to think there's also kind of a policy of "post this kind of harebrained stuff only in our specified ghetto & at your own risk because we won't have your back very much at all" and somewhat of an "open season" to make fun of these things, more so than for other things on other parts of the site? Because to me that seems like kind of an extra special cover charge of sorts, which seems all well and good for that. Unless the owner of the site actually could be one of the few people to make money off such schemes, by charging and then also eviscerating his system touting paying customers. Seems that'd be one tough thing to pull off.

Quote: DrawingDead

Am I right to think there's also kind of a policy of "post this kind of harebrained stuff only in our specified ghetto & at your own risk because we won't have your back very much at all" and somewhat of an "open season" to make fun of these things, more so than for other things on other parts of the site? Because to me that seems like kind of an extra special cover charge of sorts, which seems all well and good for that. Unless the owner of the site actually could be one of the few people to make money off such schemes, by charging and then also eviscerating his system touting paying customers. Seems that'd be one tough thing to pull off.

That's a fairly apt description. The betting systems sub-forum was added to put all the squirrels and their nuts in one oak tree, which others could block. And the Wizard, for many years, had escrowed a large chunk of change against all comers letting him test their system and pay them if it would win mathematically. No one was able to complete the challenge and take his money, to my knowledge. So that should be an indication as well.

The "open season" is evident in reading past betting system threads, but the rhetoric got too rough in here, not just in that area, so in Feb. 2014 the rules tightened considerably. It's still open season on mocking systems, but the mockers have to be quite careful about not mocking the poster, which wasn't the case before. An important distinction that's not obvious unless you pay attention to dates.

Got it, thanks.

Quote: AxelWolf

We? Possibly you. by age 6 I knew Bigfoot and BS betting system were hoaxes. Some people will always believe in both.

The Wiz is in the wising up biz, you
do that by actually explaining why
something doesn't work Not by telling
them to get lost, we don't discuss that
stuff..

Axel, just be honest about your motivation. At the end of the day you find system bettors and their advocates contemptible. People who subscribe to such methods of play are soliciting idiots, in your opinion, and therefore do not deserve membership at the Wizard of Vegas forum. Their presence will sully the reputation of WoV, and by proxy, will sully your reputation. I say that because you seem to have a symbiotic relationship with WoV and a presumed "man crush" on its namesake; ask Ahigh how your actions made him feel at the last challenge. You couldn't care less about the financial ruination of a "dumb" gambler's life, because you don't want their type here in the first place.

Gamblo Marx said it best, didn't he? "I refuse to join any club that would have a system bettor as a member."

Quote: EvenBob

The Wiz is in the wising up biz, you
do that by actually explaining why
something doesn't work Not by telling
them to get lost, we don't discuss that
stuff..

Hahahaha... how is the high horse today, Bob? Weather up there any good?

Three votes for the proposal, twenty-eight against at a minimum. Axel you lost. Let it go. Nobody cares.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Three votes for the proposal, twenty-eight against at a minimum. Axel you lost. Let it go. Nobody cares.

Let's not forget, the system bettors have 10 accounts each.

I haven't lost. We all have. I always knew it wouldn't be a popular idea and would never happen, even if it was the the opposite outcome on voting. Eventually worst things could happen. We could all be charged for use of the site or even have it shut down.

Quote: AxelWolf

I haven't lost. We all have. I always knew it wouldn't be a popular idea.

It's not popular because it's dumb. You
know something and you want to be a
member of a special inner circle that
knows it too. That means excluding all
others so you can laugh at them, rather
than wising them up.

Quote: EvenBob

It's not popular because it's dumb. You
know something and you want to be a
member of a special inner circle that
knows it too. That means excluding all
others so you can laugh at them, rather
than wising them up.

I thought we never wised up chumps? I thought if we did, we got looked at like we had a dog turd stuck to the bottom of a shoe.

Oh, that Bob, he is a complex man.