Mission...Update

Once people find a new partner. They become a lot less caring about their old partner and push that person out completely. One reason, may be, to not compromise/complicate their new relationship. Perhaps a new person might even be real jealous, and put pressure on the situation.

I think it's premature to drag Mission's ex wife over the coals. She has been called vile names, described in vile terms and made to be a horrible person. All this after hearing bits and pieces from only one of the parties. I don't think the ex is going to come to this forum and state her case so we will never get both sides of the story.

Beth is the woman that Mission fell in love with, married and produced two children with. She is the one who accompanied him to Vegas just last December and, by all accounts, had a great time with. She is the one who, a few short months ago, Mission was planning his life with. Fast forward those few months. Boom! Divorce. Suddenly Beth, the person that no one here knows, is the villain. I'm just not comfortable with that.

Our friend is hurting and it's perfectly natural to circle the wagons in an effort to ease his pain as we watch this play out. It is frustrating to watch without being able to do anything and that can make lashing out at the ex seem better than doing nothing. I won't make any judgements unless I hear both sides and I really hope we don't hear too much for everyone's sake.

Something that profoundly affects this family's life forever probably shouldn't be aired on a gambling forum or be put on any internet venue for all eternity.

Get a lawyer.

My ex cut off all access to my kids for a few months before our first court hearing. Changed the locks, etc. Even had the school teachers calling her to tell her if I came to pick the kids up. I could only see them if I got to them first at daycare. It was a sad time.

When we got to court, the judge listened to testimony from us and arguments from the lawyers and I was awarded joint custody. It was close enough to even that she got less than $60 in child support (she makes good money). In hindsight, perhaps I should have asked for an earlier hearing about the kids. It all worked out, though.

I don't think of her as horrible person; she was doing what she thought was right in a bad situation. Most likely with some outside influence; maybe even on her lawyer's advice as he tried to argue that I saw the kids very little during that time. I did have to pay full support for those months, which I found laughable.

Quote: 1BB

I think it's premature to drag Mission's ex wife over the coals. She has been called vile names, described in vile terms and made to be a horrible person. All this after hearing bits and pieces from only one of the parties. I don't think the ex is going to come to this forum and state her case so we will never get both sides of the story.

Beth is the woman that Mission fell in love with, married and produced two children with. She is the one who accompanied him to Vegas just last December and, by all accounts, had a great time with. She is the one who, a few short months ago, Mission was planning his life with. Fast forward those few months. Boom! Divorce. Suddenly Beth, the person that no one here knows, is the villain. I'm just not comfortable with that.

Our friend is hurting and it's perfectly natural to circle the wagons in an effort to ease his pain as we watch this play out. It is frustrating to watch without being able to do anything and that can make lashing out at the ex seem better than doing nothing. I won't make any judgements unless I hear both sides and I really hope we don't hear too much for everyone's sake.

Something that profoundly affects this family's life forever probably shouldn't be aired on a gambling forum or be put on any internet venue for all eternity.

I've tempered my earlier post via an edit. When I hear that Mission made changes to his life to be closer to his children, and then loses the use of a car because something out of his control (Ohio child support) makes his ex-wife change his mind on the car to the point where Mission is forced to live in a hotel room and not see his kids, it makes me angry and hits close to home. My feelings still stand.

Unless Pierce somehow is a terrible influence on his children via abuse, there is no reason to deny him access to the kids by taking away access to the only reliable means of transportation.

On the other hand, I've been through this circumstance, and so has Face. Even if child support is not being paid, it doesn't take away the father's rights to see the children. Beth's actions have the same effect, and this needs to be corrected either via reason or via the court system now. It is reasonable to warn Pierce now to avoid the years of hardship that likely (given the recent actions that Pierce describes) will happen.

I thought I was dealing with a reasonable person and to be honest, at times, my ex *was* reasonsable. As it turns out, there were little triggers that made her go batsh*it crazy, mainly the way that I communicated with her. The reason I communicated the way that I did was because I prefer my communications to be impersonal and short of emotion, because when I got into emotional conversations with my ex, I always lost because she was an excellent negotiator compared to me. She didn't like that, but in the end, it worked out for me, as I avoided the emotion, and got what was right, and nothing more.

Quote: RonC

Get a lawyer.

My ex cut off all access to my kids for a few months before our first court hearing. Changed the locks, etc. Even had the school teachers calling her to tell her if I came to pick the kids up. I could only see them if I got to them first at daycare. It was a sad time.

When we got to court, the judge listened to testimony from us and arguments from the lawyers and I was awarded joint custody. It was close enough to even that she got less than $60 in child support (she makes good money). In hindsight, perhaps I should have asked for an earlier hearing about the kids. It all worked out, though.

I don't think of her as horrible person; she was doing what she thought was right in a bad situation. Most likely with some outside influence; maybe even on her lawyer's advice as he tried to argue that I saw the kids very little during that time. I did have to pay full support for those months, which I found laughable.

Judges will generally look at the interests of the children first and then look at your actions second to see how reasonable you've been in your dealings. If you've been paying your child support on time and take actions that look like you are doing it in your child's best interests, then you've got a good chance that the judge will change the circumtances to allow you to exercise access.

I would exhaust all avenues to get use of a car on a consistent basis.

If she is a member of this forum, or has knowledge of it, this whole thread could be used against him. Flipping out at a casino and admittedly losing self control is something that could definitely be used against someone in court.

If I had the power to delete this thread, I would if I were in missions spot.

Quote: FinsRule

If she is a member of this forum, or has knowledge of it, this whole thread could be used against him. Flipping out at a casino and admittedly losing self control is something that could definitely be used against someone in court.

If I had the power to delete this thread, I would if I were in missions spot.

Fin does make a fair point. Mission, if you have any reason to suspect she could be reading this, delete it.

I'm a lawyer. I can't stand family law matters. I do a pro bono clinic once a month and I try to avoid any family law cases. They are just too emotionally draining. I don't have a lot of empathy to begin with, so I'm not suited to it at all. This thread is just one example of a (fairly typical!) case. Now imagine having hundreds of these. I can't imagine how Doug (AoS) deals with it. Thank the Lord I have a property law job.

In Project Mayhem, there are no names.

I'm sure Mrs ex-mission is on here reading this thread.
I'm a gambler, I estimate the odds of her reading this thread at 99.99999999 %
Women ALWAYS want to know what is being said about them.

Watch it guys.

By the way met you Beth at 4Q after the mission mcnugget challenge. I hope the best for your family.

deleted

I'm married and I'm glad I did...

deleted

Quote: FinsRule

I'm married and I'm glad I did...

I married a girl and I like it....

Quote: boymimbo

It is reasonable to warn Pierce now to avoid the years of hardship that likely (given the recent actions that Pierce describes) will happen.

that's my thinking

Quote: teddys

This thread is just one example of a (fairly typical!) case.

Not to slight Mission, but this is almost mild from cases I have had to read. It seems civil as far as a divorce can be and minimal game-playing. The stuff I have read, I can't imagine having to be involved even just as the lawyer. People accused of not feeding the family for crying out loud.

I might be taking a buddy in at reduced rent due to marital issues. (If not for that I would offer Mission the same deal though the commute would make no sense for him.) Another had his wife tell him she was "going on a date" and just ended it. At least one other had a wife decided she liked women better. And on, and on, and on.

Glad I live the bachelor life.

Quote: teddys

I'm a lawyer. I can't stand family law matters. I do a pro bono clinic once a month and I try to avoid any family law cases. They are just too emotionally draining. I don't have a lot of empathy to begin with, so I'm not suited to it at all. This thread is just one example of a (fairly typical!) case. Now imagine having hundreds of these. I can't imagine how Doug (AoS) deals with it. Thank the Lord I have a property law job.

I don't think this is a 'typical case', simply because it occurs in West Virginia, where divorce law is VERY complicated. I mean once you divorce your wife, is she still your sister, or has that relationship been terminated as well? LOL. (not a specific reference to Mission here, just a general joke to lighten the mood).

Ohio, not WV [that's just where Mission liked to gamble, across the border]

As a chief shop steward, I often had to deal with the self destruct aspect of a guy or occasional gal going thru a divorce. When love walks out the door, little compassion for the ex stays behind. Too often the guy takes a "Well, watch me now " attitude. Complete personality change. Especially if he is a nice guy, which Mission certainly appeared to be.

He sure was not a bottom feeder before all this. His word was his bond. He has not come back as promised. I would be less than honest if I said I am confident he will. I used to wonder why so many marriages ended in divorce. But I now realize that as people age, they often become a very different person. Sometimes from thief to church going holier than thou, or more often the other direction.

Without kids involved it is just a no harm, no foul situation. As for a good marriage, I was late on the rent last month, but as long as I have Josie, I will always be a very rich man.

Quote: odiousgambit

Ohio, not WV [that's just where Mission liked to gamble, across the border]

That's what I get for trying to be funny. :(

Quote: Buzzard

He sure was not a bottom feeder before all this. His word was his bond. He has not come back as promised. I would be less than honest if I said I am confident he will

There is much to ponder with Pierce's recent behavior. A few have come forward to testify to his character, which is good because there are some questions as to how well he handled some ethical issues that have come to my attention. He has pretty much put forward his recent difficulties as his excuse, which only partly, though, can excuse a lack of interest in what may be called a Proper since of Propriety ... some of what he may view as expecting too much ... standing too much on ceremony? I, however, do not see how he can hope to maintain such high standing as he enjoyed previously without rectifying this things like a man.

Then again I may be just showing how old I am.

" Then again I may be just showing how old I am. " I am 74, know where you are coming from. Different world today. I expressed earlier my thought that he was in a desperate situation, before it was general knowledge. Never met him, never PM'd, just judging him from his prior posts.
Don't see an ounce of quit in him. He is a man, just in a situation no one who has not been there can comprehend. He will pull put of this tailspin, if only for his kids. That much I am sure of.

Never reveal too much of yourself on here, unless you want the collective judgement of 20 strangers.

Just watched ONCE upon a time in the West one more time. Damn, Henry Fonda played one evil bastard to perfection. So did Charles Bronson as the avenging angel of death. Final shootout seen had them too close together for me, but the harmonica flashback scent was cinema at it's best. But Jason Robards stole the movie for me. Great scene where he tells Claudia Cardinale to go give the workers a drink of water and let them oogle her. That she has no idea what it will mean to the men. And if one of them pats her on the ass, just pretend it did not happen.

What the hell has this to do with Mission ? Well, I think he was a moderator on a philosophy forum. Philosophy is all about intelligent decision and responsibilities. Real life, especially divorce, has none of that. No F***ing way.

Been 46 years since I first saw that movie. The last 14 words from Jason Robards stuck in my sick mind for some reason. Just seeing it again 15 minutes ago and it might explain why Mission has not posted again yet. No train whistle here to follow his words.

" GO WAY. GO WAY. GO AWAY, I DON"T WANT YOU TO SEE ME DIE ! "


Metaphorically I mean ! ( How the hell did that word get in my vocabulary ? )

Quote: kewlj

I don't think this is a 'typical case', simply because it occurs in West Virginia, where divorce law is VERY complicated. I mean once you divorce your wife, is she still your sister, or has that relationship been terminated as well? LOL. (not a specific reference to Mission here, just a general joke to lighten the mood).

Quote: odiousgambit

Ohio, not WV [that's just where Mission liked to gamble, across the border]

But the joke doesn't work for Ohio. It is designed for WV........ ;-)

deleted

Mission hasn't posted in this thread in 2 days,
yet it goes on and on.

Greetings!

It seems that I have a surprisingly high number of questions to answer and things to address as relates the last few months, so I will happily do that. I believe that all of the questions posed are non-specific enough that very few PM's will be necessary for me to answer them. Perhaps not any.

After that, I'll be off for awhile and then working on the Picks Game later tonight, so if there are any more follow-up questions, I'll answer those tomorrow!

Self-Exclusion Was a, 'Strange Decision.

I agree that it was a strange decision, and basically just kind of posted as to what my thought process at the time was. Assuming they weren't going to wipe out all of my offers for my little stunt, which I would think is entirely possible, then it was definitely a stupid thing to do in that I don't have the Free Play that I had already, "Earned," in terms of September's mailers.

Also, perhaps ironically, I checked the September promotions calendar on-line, and it appears that the multiplier day I was using is now gone and the only multiplier day that remains is a day I would never make it in on, anyway.

I suppose that's for the better, in a way, the types of advantage plays that I have been pursuing (other than VP and the card trick) don't exactly generate the type of play or ADT that would lead to me getting anymore offers, so all of my offers would have been cut off sooner or later, anyway, without that multiplier day. Actually, losing that multiplier day also makes the VP unplayable, so assuming they don't bring it back, I'd have been pretty much done there when the free play ran out, anyhow. None of the other plays there are really worth checking on a daily basis, and the things that are tend to be open-ended plays which I am currently avoiding.

Self-Exclusion Reversal

After one year, I can send a letter to the State Lottery Commission asking them to reverse my self-exclusion, as my self-exclusion is only for a one year period. It's up to them whether or not they want to do that, and even though the exclusion is only one year, the guy said you stay on the list unless you request to be off of it, anyway. Thus, I can request to be off of it after one year and he said that's almost always granted if a year is what you asked for in the first place.

Non-Payment of Judgment

That is not how I was divested of my money.


It didn't take you that long to get a steady girlfriend. Did you cheat on your wife while you were married, either physically or psychologically?

This is a loaded question. I suppose the first thing that I should point out is that she has a boyfriend, and I don't think she cheated physically or psychologically. We made an agreement on the day that we filed the Petition for Dissolution that we were both free to do as we wished in that regard, so my understanding is that we were both talking to people prior to the divorce being final. In any case, I did not engage in sexual congress prior to the divorce being final.

With exception to my current girlfriend, I did not talk to anyone at any point in my marriage in a romantic context, nor did my ex-wife, to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Your self exclusion is very strange. Did part of it have to do with compulsive gambling? Did you plan this exclusion ahead of time or did you think of it after the security guard told you to leave the casino?


It didn't have to do with compulsive gambling, I just decided I'd rather leave the casino on my own rather than be tossed. I was a bit p&^%&ed off, so I really didn't consider the Free Play offers I was losing...especially for somewhere so close...so I could have just played those off until they cut me off, which takes about a month for them to do on someone's card if that is all they are doing with it.

I wouldn't do just my VP advantage play anymore, even if the multipliers were still there, because it's simply not a good enough play to justify throwing any money at it unless I was sitting on a crap ton of money. The offers didn't even change much with Diamond, I went from $15/cycle six cycles/month Free Play from Platinum to the F&%&% bizarre amount of $22/cycle for Diamond, my F&B offers didn't improve at all! LOL


Why did you curtail your forum participation? You post from work. Don't you still have use of the computer there?

Until two weeks ago I was working two jobs and could not access the computer at the second one. I was here three days a week, but aside from not physically being here the other three days, I had the same amount of clerical work and things of that nature, so basically no downtime. I was also pretty tired and not really in a mood in which anyone would have wanted me here, anyway. I'm in a much better mood now, though.


Since gambling and Vegas are not going to be a part of your life, have you considered resigning from the forum or from your administrator position? I certainly hope not.

Thank you for the kind words! I do not intend to resign from the Forum as I still enjoy the math stuff, gambling theory, and things of that nature. Further, when I have the money to more meaningfully pursue advantage plays, I intend to do so. I'm also planning for a trip to Vegas in early 2016 and intend to bring my current girlfriend, so that should be fun. I think there will be more shows and that type of thing on that trip, because my current girlfriend is even less into gambling than my ex-wife! LOL

I keep trying to convince her that the only way you can get free drinks is to be at a machine, so she asked, "What about your Wheeling Island trick, then?" I'm like, "Yeah, but that's because I don't want to be betting $1/spin on a slot machine, we're talking anywhere from $0.05-$0.25 a hand at Video Poker, huge difference!"

She is interested in seeing all of the casinos and going to shows, though, and she has also said that she wants to try my whole coupon book thing. She has a positive disposition when it comes to taking long walks, anyway, so that's something we do together with some frequency.


Card counters and non tippers have long been reviled on the pages of this forum. How would you compare these to what you did with your player's card?

I've certainly never had a problem with card counters, and I'm a good tipper, even in the worst of times. If I can't tip, I just don't eat or drink. I can certainly accept that tipping is a personal decision and further understand the argument that tipping is not necessary in many other countries/cultures except in the event of extraordinary service...and that's still not strictly necessary. I also understand why people think that one should not tip for merely adequate service, so I have no Philosophical problem with the fact that they don't tip, or with them, personally, that just happens to not be my position.

My position on tipping is that in enables an employer to pay less than a position would otherwise pay with the expectation that the difference will be made up in tips. For the server, it's almost like being a commissioned salesperson with the only difference being the difference in what you get paid is based on service and/or appearance rather than sales volume.

That having been said, if tipping were eliminated completely from the equation, the employers would have to raise wages to, at least, the minimum wage and the price of the products would go up as a result. In that scenario, everyone would be paying the increased prices.

Tipping or not tipping, in general, is simply a question of whether or not someone feels that it is necessary to contribute financially to that process that keeps the base cost of the food less. Obviously, there's great value for the product when one does not tip than when one does, although, I don't know if I'd want to become a regular at any place that handles my food (without me seeing it) if I were a non-tipper. Just sayin'.

That all said, I don't think the card thing can be compared to being a tipper or not being a tipper.

In terms of card counting, I have a great deal of respect for card-counters and card-counting is an advantage play like any other. In terms of percentage, the card trick is the best advantage play there is because the edge in infinite due to the fact that the player is not risking any money, so whatever the amount, it's pure profit. In terms of, "Legitimacy," or skill, card-counting is obviously the more legitimate AP requiring a high amount of skill.


A thread entitled "Where is Mission Poll" was started recently over what I saw as concern for you. It was promptly wiped from the forum. Were you consulted on this or did you have anything to do with it? Would you, as an administrator, have done that?

I wasn't consulted, had nothing to do with it, and did not see the thread. Because I did not see the thread, I cannot comment as to whether or not I would have deleted it.

You, like many here, have said that you don't like to give out a lot of information about yourself but you have done just that. Everything from names of family members to make and model of vehicles, general location, photos of you, your occupation and now the divorce and casino banning. I'll bet there's only one person on the banned list with your first name in the entire state and possibly country. Do you think you've given out too much or are you okay with it?

I'm fine with it, it only applies to WV casinos, and from what I am made to understand, it does not even apply to casinos in other States that are of the same corporation as certain WV casinos. Whatever plays I would have, VP would always be my base game for generaing status with a casino and/or casino group as well as offers and it sucks everywhere in WV. Mountaineer does not have any acceptable VP games, and none of the other casinos in the State are close enough to me to concern me in anyway whatsoever. I might request to be off of the exclusion list in the future in case there's some unbeatable promotion elsewhere in the State, but in over two years of me following their websites, there hasn't been any such promotion yet.

Did you ever approach anyone, not using a card and ask them if they would use yours? Logically, I can see this as begin the only way one could get diamond status, because the card timing out. If someone got suspicious of you asking them, they might have turned you in.

Diamond status only requires 50K coin-in during the amount of time necessary, in fact, during the first six months of the year, I got pretty close to that on my own. I also generated a ton of points going after that must-hit Progressive in which I ended up losijng $1,000. Between that, the VP and other slot advantage plays, I'd generated about 2,500 points in that period on my own already. The rest came as a result of the mining.

I never asked anyone whether or not they'd play on my card, and on only one occasion, when a guy was betting something like $20.00/pull on some slot machine and I noticed him get up and leave the HL room (he was not using a card) leaving $2xx.xx credits on the machine, I went ahead and popped my card in there thinking he wouldn't notice. I'm guessing he didn't, I checked back an hour later, he was gone, my card was in the machine, and he had racked up about 2500 base points. Assuming his bet level was the same, that's about 625 spins, but he might have upped his bet level, you can play up to $50/spin on this particular machine, so I don't know what happened, just that I got that many points from that.

That was the most points I ever got as a result of a single individual's play, but on one other occasion, someone else racked up almost 2K base points, and then the other times were 50-1000, something like that. Like I said, I knew I'd get nailed for it eventually.

Lawyer Up

I don't think anything else could happen because this is a court-ordered agreement. I really don't see how anything could be done that would be adverse to me AFTER I've already completed my end of the bargain. She'd never falsely accuse me of any kind of abuse, I'm sure of that much.

Besides, I agreed to this whole thing, though it be one-sided, so that she would have no financial worries and could more easily get through nursing school without all of that on her plate. Her getting a good nursing job benefits all parties involved, including the kids and myself. Obviously, not having to pay anything once she is out of school benefits me, so everything that she has done in any regard, she was legally entitled to do.

Boz's Compliments

Thanks, Boz! While I would not divulge plays told to me in confidence, I definitely think you are over-estimating my AP skills. I go after plays that many would consider a, "Waste of time," not always because of low-percentage reasons...the percentages are often good, just the returns of some of my plays are low.

Ex-Wife

My ex-wife and I have not gotten along well for years, but she's a fundamentally decent person, don't misunderstand. After years of floating along and often doing part-time this or part-time that she made a decision to invest time and money into her future by attending nursing school in the hopes of being self-sufficient. We have fundamental personality conflicts such that I don't think the term, "Irreconcilable Differences," could possibly be any more true.

In that sense, she has wanted to leave me for quite some time, anyway, but doing so would have left her with a standard of living (i.e. public housing and welfare) that she would have deemed unacceptable due to her earning capacity, so she decided to improve her earning capacity. There's no question that she would have left me years ago if not for the accompanying financial disarray and there's no question that I would have wanted such a divorce for the last few years were there any way to do that as well as have the children have a stable standard of living to a degree that I consider acceptable. (i.e. I don't want them to live in public housing, either.)

In any case, our trip to Vegas merely delayed what was inevitable and what had been inevitable for a period of several years, the fun that we had there resulted in a pipe dream of us maybe finally working it all out in the end. Real life ain't a Vegas vacation, though, so after the dust from all of that settled we realized (again) that we are simply two people who fundamentally REALLY do not like each other.

We agree on everything with respect to raising the kids and things of that nature. My girlfriend is a teacher, and the kids actually met her yesterday, and everything went extremely well (as I expected) in that regard, my son, especially, likes her extremely well and she thinks they're adorable. My ex-wife and I are presently resolving what few and inconsequential things are left to be resolved that have nothing to do with the kids, and then we'll have nothing to do with one another with exception to our dealings with the kids.

In any case, to me, these are only events. I did things for the reasons I did them and she did things for the reasons she did them, and at the end of the day, whatever decision each person makes is being made because that person thinks it is the best decision. Quite frankly, even though I do not recall ever being late for anything or missing any events or scheduled things at all, she seemed to question whether or not I could work my schedule and be up and over there that early every day, and so she decided she wanted the vehicle back. She also relies on that vehicle for transportation (for herself) to/from school, so I can understand why her concern would cause her to take the vehicle back, just not why she said anything about reporting it stolen (I never said I wouldn't give it back!) or why she is concerned in the first place about me being late at any time.

That being said, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but I categorically disagree with any negative statements that speak to the character of my ex-wife, we both have different reasons for doing what we do, we do not agree with each other's reasons for doing things, and that's one of the most fundamental reasons that we got divorced to begin with.

Lawyer...Again

She does not have a lawyer, either.

Hotel Room

I chose to live in the hotel room almost immediately prior to her taking the car back because we had no desire to continue to live in the same residence. It was also not conducive to either of our relationships with our respective partners.

My Ex-Wife (Again)

I just want to reiterate that she's a good person, has good character, and is trying to improve her earning prospects as to offer a better life to the kids. Ultimately, the kids will have two families and each family will be a financially stable household in which nobody wants for any of the necessities, until then, the agreement is such that the kids are well-taken care of and my ex-wife can get through school with no financial burdens on her plate.

The reasons, disagreements and personality conflicts that led to our eventual and inevitable divorce have existed for a long time, in fact, divorce was something that was seriously considered, on many occasions, prior to my even joining this website or getting into AP or gambling in general. Quite frankly, we both acknowledge that, given our fundamental personality differences, getting married at all probably wasn't the best idea, but what can you do now?

Either way, that doesn't change the fact that she's a decent person, a good mother to the kids, and is actively working towards improving her earning capacity.

Thanks, Mission. I have to say I never thought I'd see anyone fight over a PT Cruiser. :-)

Quote: 1BB

Thanks, Mission. I have to say I never thought I'd see anyone fight over a PT Cruiser. :-)

Seriously. Those things look like miniature hearses.

Quote: 1BB

Thanks, Mission. I have to say I never thought I'd see anyone fight over a PT Cruiser. :-)

I rented one in Vegas and took it back before
I even hit the freeway. Almost no air and the
engine in it couldn't get out of it's own way.

Not to be confused with this.

" I used to wonder why so many marriages ended in divorce. But I now realize that as people age, they often become a very different person "

I will accept partial credit for this statement. ( Hey, I ain't wrong all the time ! )

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Seriously. Those things look like miniature hearses.

The cars really do suck on gas mileage which is quite an accomplishment for Chrysler to pull off.

Better looking like a hearse than the fiat being being both a car and your casket or the Ion being both a car and a payphone.