Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1276
  • Posts: 20980
May 30th, 2010 at 6:52:21 PM permalink
No that you asked me, but I think I can speak to my own experience with MGM-Mirage, Venetian, and Wynn hosts.

1. No. Hosts are compensated according to the theoretical, not actual loss, of their players. At least that is what I've been told. It may be different elsewhere. The book 'Whale Hunt in the Desert' makes the case that hosts love it when they hook players who lose 6-7 figures a trip, which was based on a Hilton host.

2. Not much. The hosts have little idea what offers/mailers you are getting. However, when I've complained about not getting mailers other players were getting, they were able to get my name on the mailer list, at least temporarily.

3. I agree. Big requests have to get approved higher up the food chain, but they can authorize most routine requests.

I highly recommend 'Whale Hunt in the Desert' for those interested in the job of a host, and how the other side views the players.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
May 30th, 2010 at 7:02:04 PM permalink
Quote: scotty81

Does the host really not care if you win or lose? If you are a consistent winner, how does that affect what the host can or can not do?



I would think that the last thing a host should care about is if you win or lose. The host is responsible to try and get a certain level of play out of a person. The House Odds determine if you win or lose. It would really turn off players to think they are getting some tiny compensation back of their losings, and will be ill-treated if they win.
scotty81
scotty81
Joined: Feb 4, 2010
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 185
May 30th, 2010 at 8:27:31 PM permalink
@paco: That's how it used to be, but recently the hosts seem to have been getting instructions to under-comp winners (or, at least not over-comp). As one host put it to me: "Theoretical doesn't keep the lights on"
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future. - Niels Bohr
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1276
  • Posts: 20980
May 30th, 2010 at 9:37:13 PM permalink
Quote: scotty81

"Theoretical doesn't keep the lights on"



That is a "sweat the money" kind of statement. I would argue that it is in fact theoretical that keeps the lights on. Yes, you need players to lose to pay the electricity bill, but players lose because of the theoretical. That host is at risk of losing players that win, who I would argue are more likely to lose next time than a player licking his wounds.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
May 31st, 2010 at 7:15:05 AM permalink
I should think no player wins every time. Surely a whale, who bets thousands per hand, can walk away some times with millions, but he should lose the theoretical over the long run. So, yes, it would be short-sighted to mistreat a player just becasue he won money. The casino should want him to return in order to give it back, no?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 177
  • Posts: 10088
May 31st, 2010 at 6:46:39 PM permalink
Quote: justaguy

... Also bear in mind all of this is hypothetical and may not have ever even happened...

Yeah. Right. LOL



Although a lot of this thread talks about whales and card counters, I'd like to turn it's attention back towards the regular guy. Guys like us... and this comment in particular:
Quote: justaguy

Memorial Day weekend is a holiday/long weekend/the start of summer every year. Plan ahead people! I luckily didn't get any of this but bunches of my co-irkers did. People who decide to book their hotel room A) when they already have arrived in Vegas room-less B) in the car driving to Vegas C) from the airport D) from the freaking airplane. Book your room before you plan your transportation people.

A lot of these last minute hotel room bookings are brought on by the casino's own overly-liberal customer service policies, particularly regarding hotel reservations.

Most casino hotels allow reservations to be cancelled, without penalty, right up to the check-in time on the day of arrival. Some are a little more rigid: Cancel by check-in time the day BEFORE arrival. Most also allow shortened stays without penalty.

These policies, particularly the first, practically invites the kind of last-minute behavior described in JustAGuy's comment posted above.

Factor in the bean-counters decisions to change rates almost as often as they change underwear, and it should be no wonder why people call last minute, hoping the place has so few bookings that the rate has been lowered.



Real world example from just this past weekend:

My brother and I and the wives decided to go to either Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun for Memorial Day. Just Sunday night. Two weeks ago, best rate at Mohegan Sun was around $300 for each room. Foxwoods (or rather MGM at Foxwoods) was $50 each. We booked it.

But we all like Mohegan Sun better. So this past Saturday, my wife calls again. She plays a lot of $1/$5 slots, so she's gonna get the best rates. She got one room for free, and one for $180. My brother golfs, and the greens fees were about $75 less for Mohegan Sun's course.

So it cost us $5 to switch. Naturally, we switched.

As we're driving up, we make plans to return for July 4th. We call both places, got rates, and booked two rooms at MGM at Foxwoods - but we said we'd call Mohegan Sun again around 7/1 to try again!
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
justaguy
justaguy
Joined: May 30, 2010
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 14
May 31st, 2010 at 11:47:10 PM permalink
post cropped by author


I never even thought of the idea of a "trial balloon" aspect of it. That is awesome, all he really risked is whether he gets his comps or not, if he was squeamish after he could just play without be rated if he choose. I wouldn't imagine security being notified to watch him based on trying to get comps, it's really dumb things that tend to get people watched.

I have some personal gambling time coming up, dunno if I want to play my fave game, do an American Casino Guide Coupon run and play lots of games for very short periods, or try the new oddball carny games (rock and roll dice and casino backgammon and maybe the electro-craps at Mandalay Bay (already done Rapid Craps and I like it).
CrappedOut
CrappedOut
Joined: May 9, 2010
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 62
June 1st, 2010 at 12:31:26 AM permalink
My experience is to avoid dealing with hosts and just take the computer-generated offers. Hosts won't do diddly-squat for a smart gambler. The key is not working hosts, but structuring your play to make yourself look stupider than you really are. The main way I do this is to discreetly drop a green chip in my pocket ever so often and not to color them up at the table. I usually buy in for $2000 and by the time I finish a session I will always have a couple hundred in the pocket in addition to whatever I have on the table. Yes, some pits might catch on this, but judging from the numbers I see on my win/loss statements, most don't.
LVJackal
LVJackal
Joined: Jun 1, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 66
June 1st, 2010 at 5:34:06 AM permalink
Depending on where you play, hosts typically aren't involved in the complimentary computations. They have limited to large sway in the very beginning, then it's all history. I have seen most of the major resorts criteria, and very few actually include hands/hour in the player rating. Instead it's a basic formula: set hands/hour*avg bet*time played*h/a= theoretical. In most games, the house advantage is static ie roulette. In black jack it's somewhat discretionary to a point. As well as craps, which is the most widely varying of rated games as it depends on how much of the odds they give you credit for.

Another criteria is how much of the credit line is played through, or better put: at risk. There are different ways to expose your roll to the house advantage and the higher the risk of ruin for the player, generally the more generous the comps provided.

As far as hiding wins, this depends again on the place, most count the rack prior to play and immediately after play. If you're a medium to high roller it's unlikely to be very far off, with the exception of playing on a very busy table all wagering about the same amount. The table loss itself wont be off by much at all, instead, it's who that money is attributed to.

Thanks to authors and the internet (the wizard's site being one of the main ones), a large winner will not have his comps altered in any way shape or form. Instead he will have his average wager and time played input to compute the possible standard deviation. Again, this is not all casinos or even every one within the same major corporation as in some places, even a long string of minor wins on impossible games to beat will get some very lucrative players uninvited.

A last thing on hosts, don't disregard them entirely, many times a very good host can push a player over the threshold into a new comping tier/level/rating. Even over extending the static comp % return on theoretical based in large part on several criteria: recent losses, frequency of visits and the aforementioned % of credit line put into play.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 177
  • Posts: 10088
June 1st, 2010 at 5:45:38 AM permalink
Quote: justaguy

DJteddybear (one of my fave posters by the way)...

Thanks.


Quote: justaguy

I love the "I'll call the competitor!" followed by the pause where I guess I'm supposed to go "oh wait! we do have a room for you it's comp and we are giving you a REAL LIVE PONY as a gift for the inconvenience and all just because you huffed "competitors" name in a snotty tone"...

GREAT line. But tell the truth. You wish you had the balls to use that line, don't you? :)


Quote: justaguy

Do watch out though if you us the DJteddybear backup plan method, some hotels on the strip have 72 hour cancelation policies ...

Hmmm... I just checked my reservation for Imperial Palace in September. Yeah, it's a 72 hour cancellation.

In my post above, Mohegan Sun was same day, Foxwoods was 24 hour. My experience in A.C. has been same day or 24 hour.

Then again, I think even that may be dictated by the player's tier level.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗

  • Jump to: