Markers
So the questions are:
- In addition to checking your credit history, do they also require a bank balance statement?
- What is a "standard" amount of credit to apply for if you play $100 a hand in BJ?
- Does your credit rating take a hit? I'm assuming not, but checking others' thoughts...
- How does a successful credit line issued show up on your credit history? is it clearly labeled as "casino XYZ" or does it look like any other standard line of credit?
Thanks all :)
You are not getting 'credit', as in a credit card. Basically, the money you are 'borrowing' from the casino in the form of a marker, must be paid back at the end of your trip, or I think, within 30 days. The casino is just lending you cash to play with so you did not have to bring a bunch with you. But, the casino expects you are playing with money that you can easily pay them back with, should you lose.
The casino will look at your bank accounts to see that you have had a steady excess in the account. In other words, if you are looking for a $10k marker limit, they will want to see that your account has had more than 10,000 in it for the past 6 months (not just 10,000 in it now. You need to be able to demonstrate you can pay off whatever amount you take in markers.
I do not believe they run a credit request, so your real credit is unaffected. Not positive of this, but fairly certain.
And, related, I do not believe casino credit shows up on your credit history, since you are not able to carry an outstanding balance.
All of the casinos I checked required a $5K minimum to get casino credit. That does not mean you have to take out a $5K marker. It means that the casino will let you take markers out (most require a marker to be $500 to $1000) up to your credit limit. So, if your credit limit is $5k, and you are having a bad trip, once you get to 5k, the casino will not give you any more money, until you pay off the outstanding markers.
Part of the paperwork you sign gives the casino the right to draft the money out of your bank. The casino IS NOT going to get cheated out of their loan to you.......
Quote: sodawateryou could also just wire money to the cage and take out markers against that. it's known as "front money."
That is the way I take larger amounts (for me; they'd be one night's bankroll for others!!). Usually, a quick call to the cage and they can give you specific instructions for wiring or a cashier's check. For the latter, they'll want to call the bank a day before or so to make sure everything is in order.
I just take out markers off the "front money" at the tables...no problem and no large amounts of cash on me...just a few hundred in case I am headed to another casino for a while...
I have had no issues at all. It won't hurt your credit rating. I'm not even sure if it shows up on your credit report (I haven't checked) Technically you are signing promissory notes which can be presented to your bank for payment (the difference between a promissory note and a check is just a technicality -- they are essentially the same). It is not the same as using a credit card -- it is more like paying for a purchase at a store with a check. In fact, if you ask them to, you can take care of your markers that way (just ask the casino to cash them)
I believe that you are signing something agreeing that you have enough money in the bank account to cover the markers, but, once you have used the line a bit and they see that you pay with no problems, you can ask them to give you 30 days to pay it back, so you won't really need to worry about this. I suppose, depending on how paranoid you are, you might want to have the money in the account anyway, since they CAN present them to your bank for payment if they want to.
A good limit is the max that you are willing to lose on a trip :) They generally want to give you about what you gamble with. For a black-chip player, $10k or $20k might be reasonable, but it really depends. What's the most you've ever been down on a trip? That's a good starting point. Once you have a relationship with them (ie, you have used the line and payed it back a few times, so they trust you) getting it extended is no problem if you want to, so you really don't need to worry about not getting enough.
What you might want is a Front Money Account. Minimal paper work. You deposit the money into your account with them. And you sign markers to take your own money out of your account.
Quote: FleaStiffMost casinos use a commercial sounding corporate entity for credit checks. Its located in California, not Vegas.
What you might want is a Front Money Account. Minimal paper work. You deposit the money into your account with them. And you sign markers to take your own money out of your account.
I have a friend who does this. I think it's kind of a hassle. You either need to send wire transfers or get paper cashier's checks, which you have to fax to them beforehand so they can verify them. With credit you just show up.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceTechnically you are signing promissory notes which can be presented to your bank for payment (the difference between a promissory note and a check is just a technicality -- they are essentially the same). It is not the same as using a credit card -- it is more like paying for a purchase at a store with a check. In fact, if you ask them to, you can take care of your markers that way (just ask the casino to cash them)
I've never used credit, but I get the impression that they prefer you to pay them off without the casino actually cashing the promissory note itself. Like it's less of a hassle to them if you just write them a check at the cage (or cover it with chips if you're up later on). Have you found that to be the case? Have you ever covered your marker by asking the casino to just cash the original notes you signed? Curious, is all.
I applied for credit with CET (technically at the Flamingo) and was denied, the stated reason being "account open for less than 6 months." Now this was factually incorrect, as I had opened that account several years prior. But what had happened, is that the bank had been purchased by another big bank. So maybe there was some confusion/mix-up there.
I asked for $10K and had maintained a balance in that range for a while, so I was kind of miffed that it was denied for what appeared to be a mix-up. But, it's for the best. I wouldn't have been running any advantage plays; I was hoping to just make my occasional craps play easier. And now that I'm playing less and less craps, I'm not too upset.
One perceived negative to front money is that you sometimes pay a fee. I've never wired money, but I would assume you have to pay for that service. Getting a cashier's check at my bank is free if you have a certain kind of account, but for others there's a fee (something like $10-$15 I think). So that could be a deterrent for some people.
Quote: beachbumbabsOne thing I have been told is, once you set up a credit line with a casino or chain, your comps will improve a bit, because you have the wherewithal, and because you have a closer financial relationship with them tied into your bank account. So they'll up the ante a bit to get you in there, rather than the casino down the street. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this; it was from a friend who was dating a guy in the credit department at the LV Hilton (at the time). But that would beat the cost of wiring/cashier's checks to me.
I had an experience with this. I have had a marker for several years at the Borgata; I visit a few times a year. I used to draw about 25% of the limit on each trip, which was usually enough for me to start, and I was fortunate to run it up on most trips so that I did not need more. Last year, I decided to draw the entire limit when I arrived, and I just stayed disciplined enough to not change my play. Within a week of returning from this trip, the offers I was receiving changed significantly.
(first post, but I've been lurking for a while)
Welcome.Quote: Daddydoc(first post, but I've been lurking for a while)
Sorry to hear that.Quote: DaddydocThanks. I feel like I already know some of the regulars here, from following threads (mostly craps).
I always call the cage at least a week before I arrive to have them verify the LOC is still in place.
They call my bank to verify my bank balance.
Every time I draw funds on it at the tables I sign a marker.
When I leave I pay it off if I have it, otherwise I have a month to send them a check.
It's great, an interest free loan.
Ka-ching.
Casinos are genius, what a righteous con they have going, to fool people with a "no interest" loan.Quote: MrV
It's great, an interest free loan.
Ka-ching.
Unless you are an AP this is terrible thinking.
If you are an AP BORROW AWAY, BORROW AWAY.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI've never used credit, but I get the impression that they prefer you to pay them off without the casino actually cashing the promissory note itself. Like it's less of a hassle to them if you just write them a check at the cage (or cover it with chips if you're up later on). Have you found that to be the case? Have you ever covered your marker by asking the casino to just cash the original notes you signed? Curious, is all.
Yeah, I've done it before. When I asked my host, she said that they did not care at all. I think it is no more work for them to cash the marker than a check. It takes the same amount of time to clear. She said that I could do whatever I found easier.
Quote:One perceived negative to front money is that you sometimes pay a fee. I've never wired money, but I would assume you have to pay for that service. Getting a cashier's check at my bank is free if you have a certain kind of account, but for others there's a fee (something like $10-$15 I think). So that could be a deterrent for some people.
If you can afford 5-figure gambling losses in a weekend, you have enough money that your bank should give you all that stuff for free. If not wire transfers, certainly, cashier's checks. If they don't, you might want to look elsewhere. Banks are pretty competitive to get customers who have lots of money or high income.
Is the bank account that is to be listed on an application (the account that should show a substantial balance for an extended period) supposed to be a checking account? I keep a very limited balance in my checking account, with the balance approaching zero at some point in many months. The funds that I don't anticipate using in a particular month are kept in a money market account. Funds that I don't expect to use for a year or more are kept in CDs and common stocks.
For a potential casino credit applicant who manages his funds in such a manner, would a money market account satisfy the casino, or do you have to keep significant cash balances sitting idle in a checking account?
For those to whom it is not clear why I would bank funds in this manner, it used to be that the money market accounts paid reasonable interest while the checking accounts did not. Recently, the banks aren't paying significant interest on any deposits -- why should they when the government lends them money essentially for free? Anyway, I still use a money market account as if the banks did pay significant interest.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIf you can afford 5-figure gambling losses in a weekend, you have enough money that your bank should give you all that stuff for free. If not wire transfers, certainly, cashier's checks. If they don't, you might want to look elsewhere. Banks are pretty competitive to get customers who have lots of money or high income.
Mostly, true except that I keep my checking account bone-dry so I don't qualify for any perks. I generally follow Doc's strategy, good segue...
Quote: DocAs a low roller who spreads his limited action around a lot of casinos, I've never had any need to consider casino credit. I am curious about the mechanics though, so let's suppose for a moment that I wanted to establish a line with a particular casino.
Is the bank account that is to be listed on an application (the account that should show a substantial balance for an extended period) supposed to be a checking account? I keep a very limited balance in my checking account, with the balance approaching zero at some point in many months. The funds that I don't anticipate using in a particular month are kept in a money market account. Funds that I don't expect to use for a year or more are kept in CDs and common stocks.
For a potential casino credit applicant who manages his funds in such a manner, would a money market account satisfy the casino, or do you have to keep significant cash balances sitting idle in a checking account?
For those to whom it is not clear why I would bank funds in this manner, it used to be that the money market accounts paid reasonable interest while the checking accounts did not. Recently, the banks aren't paying significant interest on any deposits -- why should they when the government lends them money essentially for free? Anyway, I still use a money market account as if the banks did pay significant interest.
I had the same exact concern when I was trying to get a LOC. At the time I had a "high-interest" checking account through ING Direct (now Capitol One 360). It was a checking account that paid something like 0.15% APY interest. Piddly, but hey you could write checks and weren't limited by the 6-withdrawals-per-month restriction on most savings accounts.
When my credit request was denied (see above post), I had had enough of that account. I now keep most free cash in my savings account which is with one of the online companies that at least gives me 0.90%. My checking account I maintain with a big brick-and-mortar bank, but after I write the rent check every month it is sometimes in the $500 range. I just don't need access to cash that often with everything going on CCs these days.
All of the above in addition to my physical cash bankroll I generally have around as well.
Quote: DocAs a low roller who spreads his limited action around a lot of casinos, I've never had any need to consider casino credit. I am curious about the mechanics though, so let's suppose for a moment that I wanted to establish a line with a particular casino.
Is the bank account that is to be listed on an application (the account that should show a substantial balance for an extended period) supposed to be a checking account? I keep a very limited balance in my checking account, with the balance approaching zero at some point in many months. The funds that I don't anticipate using in a particular month are kept in a money market account. Funds that I don't expect to use for a year or more are kept in CDs and common stocks.
For a potential casino credit applicant who manages his funds in such a manner, would a money market account satisfy the casino, or do you have to keep significant cash balances sitting idle in a checking account?
For those to whom it is not clear why I would bank funds in this manner, it used to be that the money market accounts paid reasonable interest while the checking accounts did not. Recently, the banks aren't paying significant interest on any deposits -- why should they when the government lends them money essentially for free? Anyway, I still use a money market account as if the banks did pay significant interest.
I have it on relatively good SECOND HAND authority that a money market account will be accepted as long as you have immediate access to the account in case you require to pay them back the money. Also as long as you supply them with the details of the money market account and they are able to verify the balance for at least 6 months prior to your application.
I think that essentially casinos want to make it as easy as possible for you to loan money (within their parameters obviously) as this gets you to the tables quicker.
Personally I hate credit. In my opinion you should never loan money to gamble with even if you have it in spades to do. If you want to make use of the casinos facilities because you don't want to carry large sums of money with you then the front money option is certainly there for you and if you can afford to spend 10's of thousands of dollars in the casino then there should be no charge for a transfer of any kind, otherwise (BOA) is $35 per transfer (international) and $15 (local).
I'm not telling anyone not to use the marker facilities, just my opinion about them.
Quote: MrVLink to info about Nevada casino markers
This might be a more reliable starting point with regards to questions about markers.
NGC - Markers
NOTE: It is only a link to a search I did because I couldn't open the files on my work PC.
Quote: DrugpeddlerI could be wrong, but I am fairly certain it is casino specific.
AS far as I know, yes it is!
Based on the amount of the marker you used determined how fast it hit your bank. If you used under 5K it hit your bank in 7 to 10 days after you left. If you were over 5k it hit your bank in 30 to 45 days. We also flew down many times for a one day visit without checking in. They apparently know when you left since any markers would hit your bank like clock work.
Having markers is a good way to realize how much of a gambling ass-hole you are. One weekend I lost two 10k markers at different casinos. When they cleared my bank and you watch your hard earned balance vanish that took such a long time to build up, it could be a wake up call. I know it was for me.
Quote: Buzzard" (first post, but I've been lurking for a while) " NO FAIR.
Gotta learn my way around before I jump in and look like an ass from the get-go.
Quote: RSIf you set up a line of credit, is it for that specific casino only, or can you use that line for any casino of the same owner? ie: I could use the same line of credit at MGM Grand at Aria and Bellagio as well? Or would I have to set up a LOC at all 3?
My experience with CET, MGM/Mirage and Station is that you have to set up line at each location. Admittedly I haven't checked if this policy is still in place for Station Casinos in quite a while.
At the Venetian/Pallazo, you can draw on the same line for both properties. I don't have any experience with the other casino families.
Better? And in what way please? I am just nosey...Quote: DaddydocI had an experience with this. I have had a marker for several years at the Borgata; I visit a few times a year. I used to draw about 25% of the limit on each trip, which was usually enough for me to start, and I was fortunate to run it up on most trips so that I did not need more. Last year, I decided to draw the entire limit when I arrived, and I just stayed disciplined enough to not change my play. Within a week of returning from this trip, the offers I was receiving changed significantly.
(first post, but I've been lurking for a while)
Quote: AcesAndEightsMostly, true except that I keep my checking account bone-dry so I don't qualify for any perks.
Not necessarily true. At Wells Fargo you can get the PMA account with a minimum balance of $25k (maybe that minimum has increased since I signed up) and that includes the market value of accounts in a linked Wells Fargo Investments brokerage account. There are no restrictions on the assets (I hold all stocks) When I switched jobs many years ago, I rolled my 401(k) into an IRA at Wells Fargo, and that allowed me to meet the requirement without having anything in a checking account.
Back then the PMA account also gave you 100 free trades/year in each brokerage account, so I never even paid them a commission (I literally never paid a single fee associated with that brokerage account). I think that they got rid of that now for new accounts, although my account is grandfathered in so I still get it. In all the years that I have been with Wells Fargo, I have paid exactly one fee, and that was for a wire transfer. Everything else (including cashier's checks) has been free.
Other banks tend to offer something similar, but the minimum balance usually has to be in deposit accounts (checking or savings or CDs) which earn paltry interest, so you are, in essence, paying a lot of the account. WF is the only one that I know of that gives you these perks if you have your regular investments with them.
Quote:Better? And in what way please? I am just nosey...
I usually stay Thursday-Saturday when I go. I went from getting Thursday free and Friday casino rate, to any night free (except summer Saturdays). I also saw a big jump in the match play (double to almost triple), and I started getting offers from the Fly Borgata program (free air for one, room for 3 nights).
Quote: arcticfunOn the topic of front-money accounts - could you effectively use the casino as an extra entity to hold your cash? I understand that it wouldn't generate any interest or anything... but that's not the point. Could you keep it with them for longer than a trip? Months/years? That sounds extremely useful. You basically keep your gambling stash completely separate from your finances. You come in, check in with a floor person, he issues a marker against your own money, and you can then deposit it back into your account. Come back a week later an repeat. Can it work that way?
I am interested in the answer to this ? as well.
Quote: NostronI am interested in the answer to this ? as well.
You could leave money in the cage but must make an appearance and draw on it before two years. If the funds remain dormant for two years the state confiscates it. Of course the casino must try to contact you before that happens.
They would more then likely start contacting you after 6 months on a regular bases trying to get you there with the hopes of getting you to convert your funds into their funds.
If your going on a monthly or more often bases, you could probably keep funds there indefinitely, but dormant after 2 years would be the limit. This is for Atlantic City, not sure about other states.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAt Wells Fargo you can get the PMA account with a minimum balance of $25k (maybe that minimum has increased since I signed up) and that includes the market value of accounts in a linked Wells Fargo Investments brokerage account. There are no restrictions on the assets (I hold all stocks)
Yes, I believe that is still true. I think that is what I have with Wells.
Quote: NostronI am interested in the answer to this ? as well.
I live in Vegas and have used casinos for this purpose. I like it because it gives me 24 hour access to my cash. Make sure you choose a casino that you won't be upsetting by your play. You don't want to get trespassed from the casino that has your money.
Quote: DRichI live in Vegas and have used casinos for this purpose. I like it because it gives me 24 hour access to my cash. Make sure you choose a casino that you won't be upsetting by your play. You don't want to get trespassed from the casino that has your money.
I'm no expert so please correct me if I'm wrong but even if you are tresspassed they have no right to keep a hold of your money do they? You are generally trespassed from the gaming floor which effectively means you cannot physically play at a table game but going to the cage to settle a marker or to withdraw your front money shouldn't be a problem right? I guess you could also do it by phone?
Quote: Doc
Is the bank account that is to be listed on an application (the account that should show a substantial balance for an extended period) supposed to be a checking account? I keep a very limited balance in my checking account, with the balance approaching zero at some point in many months. The funds that I don't anticipate using in a particular month are kept in a money market account. Funds that I don't expect to use for a year or more are kept in CDs and common stocks.
For a potential casino credit applicant who manages his funds in such a manner, would a money market account satisfy the casino, or do you have to keep significant cash balances sitting idle in a checking account?
For a small amount (<2-3k) AND if your past play (i.e. typical daily loss) is more than that amount, most casinos can waiver the checking account balance requirement.
(But you still need to give them the checking account, because a marker is essentially a check which you will write and pay to the casino.)
For large amount, they would require the checking account has a substantial balance in the past 6 months or more. Some casinos even talk to the bank to verify.
Funds in other accounts (stock, money market) probably not good enough.
Quote: arcticfunOn the topic of front-money accounts - could you effectively use the casino as an extra entity to hold your cash? I understand that it wouldn't generate any interest or anything... but that's not the point. Could you keep it with them for longer than a trip? Months/years? That sounds extremely useful. You basically keep your gambling stash completely separate from your finances. You come in, check in with a floor person, he issues a marker against your own money, and you can then deposit it back into your account. Come back a week later an repeat. Can it work that way?
Yes you can. I have such an account in one casino. It's like a no interest savings account.
I also have maker (credit account) in another casino.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNot necessarily true. At Wells Fargo you can get the PMA account with a minimum balance of $25k (maybe that minimum has increased since I signed up) and that includes the market value of accounts in a linked Wells Fargo Investments brokerage account. There are no restrictions on the assets (I hold all stocks) When I switched jobs many years ago, I rolled my 401(k) into an IRA at Wells Fargo, and that allowed me to meet the requirement without having anything in a checking account.
Back then the PMA account also gave you 100 free trades/year in each brokerage account, so I never even paid them a commission (I literally never paid a single fee associated with that brokerage account). I think that they got rid of that now for new accounts, although my account is grandfathered in so I still get it. In all the years that I have been with Wells Fargo, I have paid exactly one fee, and that was for a wire transfer. Everything else (including cashier's checks) has been free.
Other banks tend to offer something similar, but the minimum balance usually has to be in deposit accounts (checking or savings or CDs) which earn paltry interest, so you are, in essence, paying a lot of the account. WF is the only one that I know of that gives you these perks if you have your regular investments with them.
Very interesting and relevant, as I am also a Wells Fargo customer. I have just one checking account. It was originally a "free" checking account with no fees or minimum balances or any kind of requirements. Then they stopped offering that account but I was grandfathered for a time. Then I was un-grandfathered and almost closed the account, but with my twice monthly direct deposit, the account remains free. So I still have it, but no other accounts with WF.
The last time I went in there to withdraw my Vegas trip bankroll (which is a pretty large transaction which takes them a while to process), a banker came up to me and gave me the pamphlet for the PMA package. I considered it, but rolling over my retirement assets from Charles Schwab (with whom I have been very happy) would be a moderate enough PITA that I decided it wasn't worth it. Given that I don't actually need cashiers checks, like, ever, I'm not too worried about it.
