Corporate Vegas vs Mob Vegas

For those old enough to have gambled in both, which did you prefer and why?

Well in 1980 I was only 7 so I did not experience it, BUT I would say I would rather have the mid 90's Vegas vs the Vegas of today. Or even the middle of the recent recession Vegas rather than the Vegas today. I was in LV for Derby/fight weekend, either I am getting old or Vegas is getting too much hustle and bustle, more hustle than what I like.

The usual response is that the Mob knew the right way to run Vegas. They actually gave the customer a good chance to win. Frank Sinatra never sounded more sincere than when he announced to those at his show that he hoped they had encountered good fortune. The first few days I was in Vegas, the temperatures were making headlines and so were the bodies being found in the desert. (It was an accountant going over the Second Swing Shift Drop Boxes that noticed certain blackjack tables were running in the red). Collusion involving dealers, players and Floor Men allowed surveillance to see a stack of reds being passed from dealer to player but that stack had one red chip on the top and was painted red on the side, but had a stack of much higher value inside it.

But the mob rewarded loyalty too. When a dealer flew home to New Jersey for a funeral, a bag full of money from the casino got there before he did. When a change girl reported something strange going on at a slot machine, she got well rewarded for being alert and speaking up about it. When a security guard found two dealers smoking "wacky baccy" in the dealers break room, Benny Binion told the security guard to stay out of the dealers break room and sent the two dealers back to work. When a bindle of cocaine fell from a players sleeve onto the Come area, Benny called out "Your faded, at this hour of the night any of my dealers can cover that bet". Pantyless Mia was allowed to shoot dice under her upraised leg. The old man who stole a flower each morning and showed up to shoot craps wearing formal diplomatic day attire never learned that Benny was paying the florist each month.

Please note that the mob never had 6:5 blackjack. Never sweated the money. Never welshed on a deal.

So as long as you didn''t try anything that was bad for the casino, you could enjoy your fun and when they said good luck to you, they actually meant it.

Now was it all quite as rosy? I don't know, but when the mob ran things nobody got backed off while betting reds.

Just read a fascinating story about Steve Wynn and how he built the Mirage, the mega resort that changed the strip.
Interesting read

http://vegasseven.com/2014/04/30/the-conjuring-of-the-mirage/

I think I would prefer to be "backroomed" under corporate entities than find out what it was like in the mob days.

Maybe those mob guys just gave you a good talking to. But I would be worrying about my kneecaps or worse once out of sight.

My first trip to Vegas was in 1987, but my folks went every couple of years from the late 60's and came back with lots of stories, so we grew up with an understanding of how it was supposed to be. We have pictures of them posing with Benny and the million, and others of them at high roller banquet tables and the like. All very romantic. I liked it better in the 80's in most ways, but I still enjoy it now. It was just a lot more affordable back then, and the comps were much more generous and started at a lower amount; any time you sat there and played for a couple hours, the pit supe would offer you dinner comps or even a room.

I think the steady movement away from gambling as the main moneymaker has led to the current situation, where comps are stingy and meals expensive. They're depending on non-gaming revenue so heavily they can't afford to be generous to a small-timer like me any more, let alone a minimum-value player. Ah, well, it is what it is; stilll fun.

I enjoyed the Vegas of the late 70's and 80's more. Limits were lower, comps were easy to come by and your felt totally safe on the strip. Everybody walking along with a drink in one hand and a bucket of nickels/quarters/dollars in the other. Even stumbing back to your own hotel in the wee small hours was never an issue or a concern. Everybody was the same then at the tables, the whale would play his stratospheric stakes rubbing shoulders beside the flea. There were a few high limit rooms but the whales were usually down in the crowd in the main casino enjoying the vibe.

Quote: terapined

Just read a fascinating story about Steve Wynn and how he built the Mirage, the mega resort that changed the strip.
Interesting read

http://vegasseven.com/2014/04/30/the-conjuring-of-the-mirage/

I liked it, thanks.

Here's another one: Wynn's designer

The fact that a lot of casinos are now publicly traded vs. privately held may have a lot to do with the stingy comps and backing off of winners.

Not that it wasn't all about the money back in the day, but today it is all about the money.

Quote: TerribleTom

The fact that a lot of casinos are now publicly traded vs. privately held may have a lot to do with the stingy comps and backing off of winners.

That's true.
Publicly traded company means they only care about profit and revenue, nothing else. Not the employees, not the customers.
They want this quarter better than last quarter of this year, this quarter better than the same quarter of last year, etc.
In simple words: greedy, greedy, greedy, much more greedier than the mobs

I don't romanticize the mob. I'll take today's Vegas over 1965 Vegas.

Quote: FleaStiff

Please note that the mob never had 6:5 blackjack. Never sweated the money. Never welshed on a deal.

were counters out there back in the day like they are today? if they were it wasn't as notable as it is today... I think 6/5 exists for more reasons than just card counters but I doubt there were any mathematicians on the mob payroll letting them know that 6/5 would up their profits...

never welshed on a deal? that's why they were always killing each other!

Quote: andyg99

were counters out there back in the day like they are today? if they were it wasn't as notable as it is today... I think 6/5 exists for more reasons than just card counters but I doubt there were any mathematicians on the mob payroll letting them know that 6/5 would up their profits...

never welshed on a deal? that's why they were always killing each other!

I don't think that you need mathematicians on the payroll to figure out that if you under-pay people when they win, it will increase your profits.

People don't like the anti- competitive nature seen today where it's pretty obvious things are colluded on and fixed. This goes beyond Vegas and reaches everywhere thanks to all the mergers and the banks controlling everything. All the things people don't like are only accomplished by controlling the markets. If all these companies had smaller holdings, they would worry more about revolts and have to be fairer.

So, if I'm a bean-counter, and I've determined that my casino must make x-dollars per table to pay for overhead and personnel, and everything costs more now, from salaries to electricity to drinks, there probably was a point in the past where I determined that red-chip BJ was not paying for itself at 3:2, and so I offer it at 6:5.

For casinos, it's about the drop and the hold in absolute dollars, not the HE. They can make enough in absolute dollars at green and above to make those tables 3:2, but not below that, so you pay to play lower minimums. I don't KNOW that's what happened, but it seems logical to me.

Slightly OT, but did they offer a $0.50 chip when paying 3:2 on $5 BJ back in the day, or what?

I've always played $10 or $20 - in short, even numbers that are easy to pay 3:2 - at the BJ table.

Quote: TerribleTom

Slightly OT, but did they offer a $0.50 chip when paying 3:2 on $5 BJ back in the day, or what?

They probably used 50c coins, like they still do. They are pretty standard at blackjack tables.

Quote: 1arrowheaddr

I don't romanticize the mob. I'll take today's Vegas over 1965 Vegas.

Many of the gangsters and thugs who weren't jailed or killed didn't retire, they just rematerialized into corporate thugs....but they turn back into old school thugs real quickly when they feel they can get away with it.

Like Benny Binion said, "if nobody was keeping an eye on us, we'd bash em over their skull and take their money". Something akin to that :)

Two complaints about modern Las Vegas:

1) When I seek out a room at Ceasars properties, I occasionally get a lower quote from Priceline or Orbitz or Expedia than I get from logging in to my Total Rewards account. Granted, I'm a red chip bettor (not a black chip bettor), but Ceasars should always offer lower rates to gamblers than to the general public, even if the gambler is a cheap low-roller like me. My brother-in-law hates gambling, (he wouldn't wager a penny) but he drives through Vegas twice a year on his way to San Diego. Why is Ceasars offering my brother-in-law a lower room rate on Expedia than my rate on Total Rewards? The mob wouldn't do that.

2) Every casino should allow blackjack players to double down on any 2 cards. And yet so many casinos limit doubling down to 10 or 11! That's terrible economics. The vast vast majority of Las Vegas visitors are drinking alcohol and not disciplined with basic strategy, so why prevent them from doubling down? The mob would let them double down anytime they want.

You can't double down in Vegas, that's ridiculous! I'm going to play those tables just to tell them off citing the riot act.

Quote: reno

Two complaints about modern Las Vegas:

1) When I seek out a room at Ceasars properties, I occasionally get a lower quote from Priceline or Orbitz or Expedia than I get from logging in to my Total Rewards account. Granted, I'm a red chip bettor (not a black chip bettor), but Ceasars should always offer lower rates to gamblers than to the general public, even if the gambler is a cheap low-roller like me. My brother-in-law hates gambling, (he wouldn't wager a penny) but he drives through Vegas twice a year on his way to San Diego. Why is Ceasars offering my brother-in-law a lower room rate on Expedia than my rate on Total Rewards? The mob wouldn't do that.

.

does Caesars even have any red chip tables these days?

Quote: andyg99

does Caesars even have any red chip tables these days?

They did the last time I was there on a weekday morning, a few months ago.

Quote: Venthus

They did the last time I was there on a weekday morning, a few months ago.

For craps many CET casino will have $5 tables during off hours. For blackjack, incredibly doubtful they would ever have a $5 3-2 table open at any time, but I don't really canvas the BJ tables at CET casinos.

Quote: reno

1) When I seek out a room at Ceasars properties, I occasionally get a lower quote from Priceline or Orbitz or Expedia than I get from logging in to my Total Rewards account. Granted, I'm a red chip bettor (not a black chip bettor), but Ceasars should always offer lower rates to gamblers than to the general public, even if the gambler is a cheap low-roller like me. My brother-in-law hates gambling, (he wouldn't wager a penny) but he drives through Vegas twice a year on his way to San Diego. Why is Ceasars offering my brother-in-law a lower room rate on Expedia than my rate on Total Rewards? The mob wouldn't do that.

I've never taken them up on it, but TotalRewards advertises what they call a "Best Rate Guarantee."

Quote: TotalRewards Hotel Reservation Page

Find a cheaper rate on another booking site? We'll match it and grant an additional 10% discount.

Last time I booked Harrah's Joliet, I found a cheaper rate at hotels.com than the TR site showed. I think you have to book the higher rate through TR, and then submit a form and hope you get your money back. It seemed like too much of a hassle for the $6 I would net from it, so I just booked through hotels.com. I have been denied enough mail-in-rebates where I didn't dot an 'i' or cross a 't' correctly on the submittal form (or in some cases where I did, but they said I didn't) to not trust the process.

Back to the OT, I am not old enough to have experienced "Mob Vegas," but I did prefer it where individuals owned casinos rather than corporations. I remember playing at the Horseshoe downtown when it was still in the Binion family. You just seemed to get better service, and it seemed to be a livelier atmosphere.

Interesting question. Personally, and I readily admit that maybe I've just gotten too old and grumpy, but I loved the Vegas that we would go to frequently between the late 70's and thru the 90's. The appeal thru that period would degenerate as time went on. The great Vegas that I loved had security, great food, and great shows. Never a bad meal. Seeing Sinatra, Rickels, Streisand, George Carlin, Henny Youngman, etc. were fantastic. Now it's Cirque de Soleil everywhere and there's a point for which I had my fill of those type of shows.

My wife's and my routine was very simple. I played at the tables during the day while she shopped. We then had a show and dinner, or dinner and a show in the evening. Never a bad time, even when losing. Over our last few trips there, the gaming and shopping remains the same, but the dinners had become mediocre and the shows terrible.

Quote: steeldco

Over our last few trips there, the gaming and shopping remains the same, but the dinners had become mediocre and the shows terrible.

There is still excellent food in Vegas but it's not cheap. And, unfortunately (and this is a problem everywhere, not just in Vegas) there are a lot of fancy, expensive places that pretend to have good food but really don't. The problem is that most people don't know the difference.

I am not really into shows so I can't comment about that. I probably go to a show once out of every 15 or 20 trips to Vegas, if that.

Quote: AcesAndEights

For craps many CET casino will have $5 tables during off hours.

Remember the Quad and O'sheas. Certainly $5 minimums can be found throughout the day.

I usually can find a $5 table at Luxor/NYNY/Excalibur but now they are all 6-5... I found $5 3-2 downtown... I usually bet $10 now, occasionally $15 but sometimes there's nothing like a full nickel table, meet a lot of fun people there...