I have a question regarding counting cards
Quote: FadestriderCan someone let me know if this would work.
It depends no what you mean by 'work.' If you mean can you tell if there are more high cards left. Then yes it works. If you mean will you gain enough of an advantage to overcome the house edge then no I don't think it'll work.
The most simply counting system is probably to just count Aces. Aces give the player the most advantage.
After that, you could count Aces and 5s (which are very helpful to the dealer.) There you have the Wizard's Ace Five count.
The more cards you add in the more the system 'works.'
Quote: Fadestrideryea that makes sense but with what I was suggesting you don't even need to pay attention to anything but the high value cards. where-as with the hi-low system you have the highs and low values that you have to keep track of. if played correctly with basic strategy I think I could be an effective way to go. however you are right, its not as good as hi-low because you are only keeping track of half the values.
What I am saying is that canceling out high and low cards is even easier than just counting high cards. Practice for a while and you may agree.
Quote: Fadestrideryea that makes sense but with what I was suggesting you don't even need to pay attention to anything but the high value cards. where-as with the hi-low system you have the highs and low values that you have to keep track of. if played correctly with basic strategy I think I could be an effective way to go. however you are right, its not as good as hi-low because you are only keeping track of half the values.
I don't see why you would want to. The entire reason why card counting works is because a high count means the next card is more likely to be a high card so you bet more. If all you keep track of is high cards you would need to keep a separate count of the total number of cards dealt and start doing division to figure out a workable number.
Quote: geoffI don't see why you would want to. The entire reason why card counting works is because a high count means the next card is more likely to be a high card so you bet more. If all you keep track of is high cards you would need to keep a separate count of the total number of cards dealt and start doing division to figure out a workable number.
This is essentially what the 10 count is. It's not a very good counting method and it's difficult to use, for the reasons that you mention.
If you know more high cards are remaining (more than 'normal'), that doesn't necessarily help you. Are there lots of 2-6's remaining or 7-9's remaining? 7-9's have low EOR (effect of removal) for betting correlation. 2-6's have high EORs for betting correlation (4-6 are higher than 2&3).
By only tracking high cards, you lose value by not knowing how many low cards there are remaining. There could be a surplus of tens remaining, but there could be even a greater surplus of low cards remaining too (ie: lots of 7-9's played and less than average tens played).
By counting cards, you are hoping for a shoe to get "skewed", where lots of low cards come out early. When the deck gets skewed, that's when you take advantage and bet big. By not knowing where the little cards are, you don't really know how skewed the shoe is, and you don't want to just assume the little cards came out in a normal/proportional way.
Let me make one more suggestion. If you want to fully understand why card counting works and which cards are powerful then read up on the EOR (Effect of Removal) of all cards from 1 deck. This will show you essentially how to create your own counting system which you can define and publish in your own book someday.
Just counting 10's is not strong enough and you will not understand which low cards are not accounted for. If you count both high and low cards you should be able to more clearly define a "positive expecation shoe" for yourself.
If you want to be a complete expert then create a level 3 count with a separate Ace count. Make sure to ascribe tags to all the cards apart from the ace because that you will be counting separately.
Otherwise just learn hi/lo and go from there :)
Good luck!
Quote: Tomspur
If you want to be a complete expert then create a level 3 count with a separate Ace count. Make sure to ascribe tags to all the cards apart from the ace because that you will be counting separately.
Otherwise just learn hi/lo and go from there :)
Good luck!
Tomspur, I think (and hope) your "level 3 with Ace side count" comment is in jest. I know only one player that can pull that off in actual play, EFFICIENTLY. Such a higher level count is going to translate into more mistakes, and mental fatigue, which will mean even more mistakes, and you will have to play shorter sessions than with a level one count like hi-lo. (the level one count player will be able to play longer before fatigue becomes an issue)
On top of that, with today's blackjack conditions, unless you have access to a good single deck game (there are few remaining) or a fairly deeply dealt double deck game, you are far better off going with your second recommendation, hi-lo (or compatible level one count). I am now in my 11th year of supporting myself from blackjack play and I use hi-lo after having experimented with a level two count for 18 months. Most of the players that I know and network with that play for a living or play seriously, meaning significant portion of their income, play hi-lo. A few do use a level 2 count, and one of two a level 3, but almost all of them are older guys that learned their higher level counts years ago, when they might have been more beneficial. And most of the teams we know about employed hi-lo. That's a pretty good track record. Yeah, if it were 1980's or 1990's with decent single and double deck games plentiful, where you could actually play and spread, then maybe a higher level count would be beneficial. Today....not so much.
As for "creating your own multi-level count". Really? We are going to suggest to a self described newer player that he re-invent the wheel?
Quote: kewljTomspur, I think (and hope) your "level 3 with Ace side count" comment is in jest. I know only one player that can pull that off in actual play, EFFICIENTLY. Such a higher level count is going to translate into more mistakes, and mental fatigue, which will mean even more mistakes, and you will have to play shorter sessions than with a level one count like hi-lo. (the level one count player will be able to play longer before fatigue becomes an issue)
On top of that, with today's blackjack conditions, unless you have access to a good single deck game (there are few remaining) or a fairly deeply dealt double deck game, you are far better off going with your second recommendation, hi-lo (or compatible level one count). I am now in my 11th year of supporting myself from blackjack play and I use hi-lo after having experimented with a level two count for 18 months. Most of the players that I know and network with that play for a living or play seriously, meaning significant portion of their income, play hi-lo. A few do use a level 2 count, and one of two a level 3, but almost all of them are older guys that learned their higher level counts years ago, when they might have been more beneficial. And most of the teams we know about employed hi-lo. That's a pretty good track record. Yeah, if it were 1980's or 1990's with decent single and double deck games plentiful, where you could actually play and spread, then maybe a higher level count would be beneficial. Today....not so much.
As for "creating your own multi-level count". Really? We are going to suggest to a self described newer player that he re-invent the wheel?
That was exactly my point and the reason why I used a level III count. I wanted to hyperbolize so that the OP could understand that he has to use at minimum the Hi/Lo count system and not just think counting 10's was enough.
Also, I believe knowing the EOR of each card out the shoe is an important part of learning what card counting means. This is why I brought it up.
I was trying to be tongue in cheek as could be seen by my final comment and smiley face :)
Quote: Fadestriderlike for example if you are up 20 which means 20 high value cards have been played, and you are playing in a six shoe game and you are over half way through the shoe than you would know that you still have 100 high value cards in the shoe.
What you are suggesting is harder to do than hi-lo. You wish to estimate a surplus or deficit of high cards in the shoe. 124 cards to begin out of 312. It would actually be no more or less accurate than hi-lo, just very difficult. Experts use this method to side count aces in single deck and double deck games when using advanced counting systems. They wouldn't use it in 6D. You propose to track all 10s and Aces, in 6D, for no rational purpose, as a newbofile? Good luck, it will never work.
I think most people are assuming you would count each 10 as it comes out, basing your bet on a running count or true count (like a normal person would). If you haven't counted a lot of 10s, you bet high. If you count a lot, you bet low. Couldn't tell you the actual points to bet, since this is a count no one would ever use. This method is what is far less accurate than hi-lo; it lies between hi-lo and the Ace/Five (the weakest possible count) in accuracy, slightly closer to Ace/Five. But it is much more practical than what I believe you are proposing.
You should use hi-lo.
