A team "scams" The Meadows out of $500,000
This whole story reminds me of the movie Casino. When 3 people hit a jackpot in 15 minutes and the slots manager didn't pull the machine after the 2nd one. Shouldn't the casino manager have figured this out much sooner?
Does anyone else on here know of this story or a similar one from Vegas that might be related.
http://triblive.com/aande/gambling/5354565-74/nestor-poker-machine#axzz2tdmcXcuI
ETA: In the first part of the story it talks about wire fraud charges from Nevada. I guess that was him paying the person who taught him about this.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/two-men-charged-slot-plot
I mean really now, a player asking an attendant to change a machine's setup?! Ridiculous! Was the attendant in on it? Conspiracy? The way I see it, shame of the casino company and the programmers for releasing a machine with a bug in it.
If he's smart enough to figure out a glitch, he should be allowed to keep the money. Fortunately for him, he returned the money and the charges were dropped. It still doesn't make him whole since he's now barred from PA casinos. The guy deserves a consulting contract, and not retribution.
Putting more money in a machine, toggling between games, and getting a higher payout due to a programming defect is hardly a crime.
Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyI understand that glitches voids all pays. But how is this cheating or fraud? If someone figures out that a machine is not properly setup, the gamer is under no obligation to volunteer such information. If the casino chose to enable a double up feature on a video poker machine, it is the casino's fault. Who in their right mind changes the way a slot machine is programmed based on a player's request?
I mean really now, a player asking an attendant to change a machine's setup?! Ridiculous! Was the attendant in on it? Conspiracy? The way I see it, shame of the casino company and the programmers for releasing a machine with a bug in it.
If he's smart enough to figure out a glitch, he should be allowed to keep the money. Fortunately for him, he returned the money and the charges were dropped. It still doesn't make him whole since he's now barred from PA casinos. The guy deserves a consulting contract, and not retribution.
Putting more money in a machine, toggling between games, and getting a higher payout due to a programming defect is hardly a crime.
I play at this casino a good bit. Last month I was playing VP and the machine that I was playing had the speed button disabled. I called over an attendant to ask him to change it. I like to play on the medium speed setting. He told me that they are not allowed into the settings. At the time I forgot about this story but I wonder if this story is the reason that he could not change it.
Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyI understand that glitches voids all pays. But how is this cheating or fraud? If someone figures out that a machine is not properly setup, the gamer is under no obligation to volunteer such information. If the casino chose to enable a double up feature on a video poker machine, it is the casino's fault. Who in their right mind changes the way a slot machine is programmed based on a player's request?
I mean really now, a player asking an attendant to change a machine's setup?! Ridiculous! Was the attendant in on it? Conspiracy? The way I see it, shame of the casino company and the programmers for releasing a machine with a bug in it.
If he's smart enough to figure out a glitch, he should be allowed to keep the money. Fortunately for him, he returned the money and the charges were dropped. It still doesn't make him whole since he's now barred from PA casinos. The guy deserves a consulting contract, and not retribution.
Putting more money in a machine, toggling between games, and getting a higher payout due to a programming defect is hardly a crime.
100% agree
I think that statement is a bit out there, since we don't know how he found this glitch. If someone hits the Mega Bucks slot jackpot, this dose not atomically make them an authority on slots.Quote: AsswhoopermcdaddyThe guy deserves a consulting contract, and not retribution.
.
Quote: GWAEI play at this casino a good bit. Last month I was playing VP and the machine that I was playing had the speed button disabled. I called over an attendant to ask him to change it. I like to play on the medium speed setting. He told me that they are not allowed into the settings. At the time I forgot about this story but I wonder if this story is the reason that he could not change it.
IMHO, a casino attendant should not be allowed to change your machine with respect to speed either. Adds too much risk to the casino. What's to say that isn't the way the casino management/developer wants that particular machine set? If you don't like the speed of that particular machine, there are plenty of slots in the area that will meet your needs.
And even if we're ok with changing the speed be it, fast, slow, or medium......the article suggests that a double up feature bonus was activated by the attendant. Now I don't know which specific machine he was playing, but I'd err on the side of caution and objectivity in saying that kind of option should not be touched by an attendant.
Once a machine hits the floor, there shouldn't be any tinkering (barring a reset for a jackpot). The ability to change a program or a feature just gives me goose bumps because it brings into question the integrity of the game.
Quote: AxelWolfI think that statement is a bit out there, since we don't know how he found this glitch. If someone hits the Mega Bucks slot jackpot, this dose not atomically make them an authority on slots.
Fair enough. The article suggested he was being investigated by the NGC as well. I don't think its a matter of hitting a jackpot equating to an expert authority. I get what you're trying to say though. I think in this situation, he found a bug. I'm not sure how it matters he discovered the glitch. I think there should be a mechanism whereby he can approach the game developer or casino to let them know of the discrepancy, and receive a reward for it.
For example, Facebook provided monetary benefits to users who identified glitches within their software. Of course this guy had no insensitive to inform IGT or the casino. He just tried to milk instead. Once again, glitches void all pays. There should be proper incentive to report errors.
I think they just want all your money and want someone else in your seat than anything else. Winning money for casinos at a lower pace they choose to not want to allow and playing for entertainment is something they want to only be public relations. Those Game Kings of today are the inbred children of what originally was introduced and totally are horrible from a player perspective in terms of usability. What most people hate Keno wise is having to change your bet to change your numbers for no good reason player wise. You get all this stuff when you have monopolies when there can be no real backlash.Quote: GWAEI play at this casino a good bit. Last month I was playing VP and the machine that I was playing had the speed button disabled. I called over an attendant to ask him to change it. I like to play on the medium speed setting. He told me that they are not allowed into the settings. At the time I forgot about this story but I wonder if this story is the reason that he could not change it.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI thought this was old news Nestor got off.
well it probably is but I haven't thought about it for a few years now and since it jogged my memory and the article was just written last month I figured I would post about it.
What I really wonder is how many machines in this country could be exploited like this. If there were some in Vegas and some in PA then I would assume there are thousands more throughout the country. If they were able to pay back the 400k I bet they had already hit quite a few more and maybe they still are.
The smartest people are also sometimes the dumbest, they probably would have gotten away with it much longer if the inordinate amount of hand pays within a short time frame hadn't tipped staff.
Quote: Mission146I'm guessing they fixed it since This article gives exact step-by-step directions on how to do it.
The smartest people are also sometimes the dumbest, they probably would have gotten away with it much longer if the inordinate amount of hand pays within a short time frame hadn't tipped staff.
Had i found this little snafu i never would have taken the first W2-G. I would have been going for $800 jackpots, not $8000. Had Kane and Nestor done this they would still be operating.
Quote: mickeycrimm
Had i found this little snafu i never would have taken the first W2-G. I would have been going for $800 jackpots, not $8000. Had Kane and Nestor done this they would still be operating.
The little snafu only worked on handpays.
Quote: Mission146I'm guessing they fixed it since This article gives exact step-by-step directions on how to do it.
The smartest people are also sometimes the dumbest, they probably would have gotten away with it much longer if the inordinate amount of hand pays within a short time frame hadn't tipped staff.
Probably used their players cards to get comp points too.
Quote: FroggerThe little snafu only worked on handpays.
If that's the case, then they were still entirely too greedy. They could have played VP for twelve hours/day at the added EV and to hit a hand pay every couple of days, or so, probably would have never set off any alarms.
Quote: anonimussQuote: Mission146I'm guessing they fixed it since This article gives exact step-by-step directions on how to do it.
The smartest people are also sometimes the dumbest, they probably would have gotten away with it much longer if the inordinate amount of hand pays within a short time frame hadn't tipped staff.
Probably used their players cards to get comp points too.
they actually used other peoples cards. They were buying free play from people who didn't use it for a particular week. The would give someone $30-$40 for $100 in free play. I don't know if they kept the card in after they ran through the free play or if they just used it and pulled after.
Quote: Mission146I'm guessing they fixed it since This article gives exact step-by-step directions on how to do it.
The smartest people are also sometimes the dumbest, they probably would have gotten away with it much longer if the inordinate amount of hand pays within a short time frame hadn't tipped staff.
summary:
win a big jackpot one vp game, switch to another game that offers double up and play once.
then switch to the highest denomination that machine offered.
go back to the original game where you won big.
you get another payout?! and even better, it would award it based on the new demonination?!
ie: win $800 at $1 VP
after switching to $10 VP, it's now $8000
Quote: tongniThat would be the worst approach, honestly. Winning a lot of money over a long period of time will eventually get you analyzed, and they have more time to figure out what you're doing. Better to smash it before the monthly numbers come out and then leave, come back a month later with a new guy playing. You also give up a huge amount of your time, which could presumably be used to find more places to play. They won half a million playing VP at one casino. It's not possible to fly under the radar at any casino with those numbers. As with many forms of gambling, a large component of the skill comes in knowing when to go full throttle and knowing when to slink out the back door. I have a feeling that these guys should have known the jig was up before the hammer came down. As for returning the money, what a bunch of idiots.
The guy had an entourage, so apparently more than two people knew what was up. I agree that they should have spent time looking for machines and gotten people in on it, so I wasn't necessarily saying stay at the same casino and play twelve hours per day, just do it at any given casino for two days. You could casino hop, in that regard.
You could have people look for the machines without even telling them why, just say, "If you find a machine with xxx identification number, once confirmed, I've got two large for you."
Quote: FroggerThe little snafu only worked on handpays.
I don't recall reading that. Can u give me a quote?
WRONGQuote: tongniThat would be the worst approach, honestly. Winning a lot of money over a long period of time will eventually get you analyzed, and they have more time to figure out what you're doing. Better to smash it before the monthly numbers come out and then leave, come back a month later with a new guy playing. You also give up a huge amount of your time, which could presumably be used to find more places to play. They won half a million playing VP at one casino. It's not possible to fly under the radar at any casino with those numbers. As with many forms of gambling, a large component of the skill comes in knowing when to go full throttle and knowing when to slink out the back door. I have a feeling that these guys should have known the jig was up before the hammer came down. As for returning the money, what a bunch of idiots.
Quote: tongniThat would be the worst approach, honestly. Winning a lot of money over a long period of time will eventually get you analyzed, and they have more time to figure out what you're doing. Better to smash it before the monthly numbers come out and then leave, come back a month later with a new guy playing. You also give up a huge amount of your time, which could presumably be used to find more places to play. They won half a million playing VP at one casino. It's not possible to fly under the radar at any casino with those numbers. As with many forms of gambling, a large component of the skill comes in knowing when to go full throttle and knowing when to slink out the back door. I have a feeling that these guys should have known the jig was up before the hammer came down. As for returning the money, what a bunch of idiots.
Torch it or milk it is the eternal question. I'm inclined to torchh if I figure other pros will find out about it. I have a play called jackpot aces. A $65 an hour play that I've been milking for six years. That is, if it's still there. I"ll know in a few days. I've made far more by milking it than I would have had I torched it.
Whether it needed hand pays, I don't think it did, but am not sure. It's been too long to remember.
Quote: tongniAs for returning the money, what a bunch of idiots.
They didn't return the money. IGT did.
I was under the impression the players did in fact return the money to avoid possible prosecution. I may be wrong I think a poster from this forum reinforced my beliefs.Quote: mickeycrimmThey didn't return the money. IGT did.
Quote: AxelWolfI was under the impression the players did in fact return the money to avoid possible prosecution. I may be wrong I think a poster from this forum reinforced my beliefs.
I think i read somewhere thst IGT made the casinos whole. But i could be wrong.
I think its possible both are true, but what you just said is more true.Quote: mickeycrimmI think i read somewhere thst IGT made the casinos whole. But i could be wrong.
Quote: mickeycrimmI don't recall reading that. Can u give me a quote?
I can't give you a quote, but I also believe it was only on hits over the configured handpay amount. I will do some research on this and see if I still have any of those old GameKing chips in my office.
Quote: AxelWolfWRONG
Aren't you the guy that tried to recruit beards off the WOV forum? If so, I can think we can both agree your judgement isn't the most sound.
Also, I like this quote:
>>Nestor and Kane couldn't be reached for comment. Assistant Federal Public Defender Shari Kaufman, who represented Nestor, noted that they were not accused of cheating a casino.
All that money won and using a public defender. I assume he had nothing left by then.
http://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/files/exclusion/andre_nestor.pdf
If they knew enough about the law and probable consequences of their actions (this is something I am not an expert on, as I do not exploit computer glitches) and did NOT return the money, then I think they played this game correctly via greedy torching. Here's why:
1) How long would it take to slow-play $500,000? A long time. Is there a guarantee that they won't get caught? No. Is there a guarantee that this glitch won't disappear one day for one reason or another? No.
2) Although only two were mentioned, a member here claims he has knowledge that this was more organized. If you accept that claim, which I do, then they are not just wildly blasting away. Without knowing details of their plans, you can infer they were employing elements of efficiency, stealth, profit maximization, and brainpower.
If they gave the money back, it shows a lack of forethought, which I can conclude thru hindshight. They should have milked it.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/game-king/
Resolution
http://triblive.com/aande/gambling/5354565-74/nestor-poker-machine#axzz2tuXXofem
Quote: RaleighCrapsI don't remember where I found it, but there was an article that explained exactly how they were able to exploit the bug. IIRC, it had something to do with the sequence of number of coins coins bet, and then a sequence of button pushes.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/05/game-king/
Resolution
http://triblive.com/aande/gambling/5354565-74/nestor-poker-machine#axzz2tuXXofem
that wired article was a good article. My source for some of the info I gave was also mentioned in it.
Quote: anonimussQuote: Mission146I'm guessing they fixed it since This article gives exact step-by-step directions on how to do it.
The smartest people are also sometimes the dumbest, they probably would have gotten away with it much longer if the inordinate amount of hand pays within a short time frame hadn't tipped staff.
Probably used their players cards to get comp points too.
They not only used their own players cards but they used to buy unused slot play from people. There are 2 people that I am close with that were questioned by authorities about their involvement since their players cards were seen being used. I am surprised that the casino did not kill their cards and trespass them as well.
Quote: GWAEThere was a thread about a movie being made about this. Does anyone recall the name of the movie.
bueller?
Quote: mickeycrimmTorch it or milk it is the eternal question. I'm inclined to torchh if I figure other pros will find out about it. I have a play called jackpot aces. A $65 an hour play that I've been milking for six years. That is, if it's still there. I"ll know in a few days. I've made far more by milking it than I would have had I torched it.
Years ago, my first time in Vegas I only knew about +VP. But after I found that I couldn't really stand the long hours and fast play, I thought, I might use it to fund playing for the Wheel of Fortune Jackpot.
So I would stay EV even. I might do that with something like this. The casino would see that I was still losing money, but I would be using their money to fund all my attempts at the Wheel of Fortune. I would balance expected win and loss.
I never actually followed through on the idea though. And I probably would have never hit the megajackpot anyway. Or likely would have got sick of the WoF.
http://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/
Quote: GWAESomeone posted this article on 2+2. First I had read it. I thought it was an excellent article and explains the entire thing. Caution, it is very long.
http://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/
You have to love the IRS...they are after someone for money that has been seized. I don't think they have a "common sense" button or they would just attach the money legally "if ever released to _________________, deduct _______________ and remit to the IRS as payment for taxes owed"... It isn't like he is ever getting the money back without fanfare.
Like many other tales of taking advantage of a flaw to win, it usually ends in a bad way. Keeping it quiet, winning a little at a time, toss in some losing cover sessions, and not being greedy could have made then very rich men.
Quote: MBI wonder what IGT would have given them if they disclosed the "zero day" bug with the Game King machines...
Now I wonder how that negotiation would go. You call and say you have a bug. You want x or you will exploit it. They tell you to f off. If they believed you then they put a couple programmers on it and figure it out instead for free.
Companies really do pay for zero day exploits.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/03/21/meet-the-hackers-who-sell-spies-the-tools-to-crack-your-pc-and-get-paid-six-figure-fees/#3e6cab6e9448
Also, if they did tell you to F off and then you did exploit it. I wonder if that would be relevant for the legal proceedings.
