I'm no longer a Pai Gow Tiles virgin!

Long Post Alert...


As I mentioned in my thread about my recent A.C. trip, I played Pai Gow Tiles and won a good chunk of change.

This was the first time I had played tiles, and it comes after gaining interest from the discussion here in the last couple weeks, and after the practice and education I got on the Wiz' article, simulator, and calculator. Does this mean I owe the Wiz a commission? ;)


I played my first session at the Tropicana.

The tables were $25 minimums. Although I'm a $10 BJ and craps player, $25 at Pai Gow didn't bother me because of all the pushes I expected. I've played PG Poker and know pushes are very common.


The first thing I noticed is that I was the only non-Asian in the room. That in itself was wierd. Because of the discussions here, I didn't expect to see many, or even any, other non-Asians at tiles. But there was also PG Poker in the room. While that attracts a lot of Asians, it has a far share of non-Asian fans.


The next thing I noticed was that the tiles were not as I expected. They were longer, narrower, and thicker than dominos, which is more like what I expected. I guess I expected that because in the Wiz' pages and simulators, they are more proportional to dominos. Whatever.

I also noticed that the players were setting their tiles next to each other. Parallel. I would have expected them to be perpendicular. But this didn't throw me off since I had asked about placement and fouling the hand last week in one of these threads.

I watched a table for two or three hands before deciding to join in. There were two players, on the two end spots, each playing two hands. That in itself was a good thing because the next thing I noticed was how seemingly fast they were setting the tiles - but since they were playing two hands, I figured I wouldn't be delaying the action by my slow play. So I took one of the middle seats.

Pit boss comes right over, takes my rating card and asks how long I've been playing tiles. I told him I've played PG poker before, but never tiles. I went on to say that I've recetly read up and practiced online, mentioned the Wiz' sites, etc. His reaction was to wish me luck, but also said that if I needed help to simply set my tiles with one pair on top of the other. Cool. Of course I did that in my first hand. I had them right. In my second hand I had a joker and still got them right. I got confidence and only set them on top of each other about 20% of the time after that.

My first 6 hands were pushes! Man, I was expecting pushes, but not that many!

The first hand that wasn't a push was a winner! Sweet! Of course, that was followed by some pushes and two losers. Then I hit a streak. Four winners in a row! And then I started pressing my bets. A couple pushes, plus a couple more winners!

The last winner in that streak was especially tasty - one of the other players was getting annoyed by my luck, as well as my conservative pressing only $5, so he banked. Not only did he lose to me, but he lost to every hand on the table. Man I was laughing my ass off inside!


When I was done, my $100 buy in turned into $185, plus a $5 tip.


The next day I tried my luck at it again, this time at Bally's. Similar results, but with a couple new surprises.

First, they were setting their tiles perpendicular. It didn't matter which was which. And for perpendicular, I would have expected something that looked like a "T". They looked more like an "L". It also didn't matter which was the "L" was pointing. Whatever.

There were two players, one on the end, on in the middle, both playing two hands, and a thir next to them playing one hand. The only open seat was the first seat (or is that the last seat? It was on the dealer's left.). So I took that seat - next to the console where the pit boss entered the rating info. The pit boss comes right over. He and I are the only non-Asians in the room. That might have been why, even though we was watching four tables, he spent a lot of time hanging with me, and talking to me during the shuffle, etc.

I get the same results as before. Lots of pushes, but more winners than losers. Sweet.

After an hour or so, I left, up $25 plus $5 tip.

I played other stuff and was going to leave when I realized I had a $5 coupon that could only be used at a table game. So I went back to PG Tiles, and the same seat was open, so I took it.

An hour or so later and I'm up another $70 plus another $5 tip.

All in all it was a great thre sessions for my first time at Pai Gow Tiles.




EXCEPT...



There was only one hand where I didn't know what to do, and asked for help, where the help changed the outcome.

It wasn't a good thing.

I forget what tiles I had, but I could have made a 6/6 or 4/8 two ways. I really intended to make a 4/8, but didn't know which of the two ways was better. The dealer, and pit boss, though I couldn't decide between 6/6 and 4/8, and talked me into the 6/6.

The dealer had 7/7.

If I had kept either of the 4/8 hands, I would have pushed. Instead, I lost.

It kinda goes with what I said in the other thread. Since 'house way' is not to win the most, but to lose the least, a player probably should not play 'house way'.

Of course, I also realise I can't come to a conclusion based upon one bad result. but still...

Congratulations! It sounds like you had a good time.

Regarding the hand you asked the staff about and ended up losing --

It could only have been a H8 and L8, with a 10, and a 6 or joker. Despite your loss, 6/6 was the correct play.

Here's what I typically consider: the average high hand is a 9 and the average low hand is a 5.

If you play 4/8, both hands are below average. You can certainly expect to lose more than you win, and have a significant negative expectation. If you play 6/6, you're pretty much throwing away the high hand but your low hand is better than average. This should push more often than not, and have less negative expectation than 4/8.

Here's another hint regarding 9s and 5s. You'll frequently be faced with a choice where you can either make a 9 (not a high nine with the 2 or 12 tile) in your high hand or a 5 in your low hand. Like you can make either a 3/9 or a 5/7. There are a few exceptions that I haven't bothered to learn, buy you're almost always better off making the 5 in the low hand in these circumstances.

Much less frequently you'll have a choice between an 8 high or a 4 low. The traditional strategy calls for a 4 low, but I think the Wizard's strategy indicates that playing the 8 high works better.

Congratulations on your first successful sessions of tiles!!!

I admire your ability and guts to just go take the plunge, good job!

Quote: PapaChubby

If you play 4/8, both hands are below average. You can certainly expect to lose more than you win, and have a significant negative expectation. If you play 6/6, you're pretty much throwing away the high hand but your low hand is better than average. This should push more often than not, and have less negative expectation than 4/8.

Yeah, I know.

It just bugs me that the one time it mattered, it was the wrong decision.

Of course, I also play Hold Em. It kills me when I do the right thing and fold crap, only to see that it would have turned into a monster hand.

Quote: odiousgambit

I admire your ability and guts to just go take the plunge, good job!

Thanks.

Truth be told, the basics aren't that complex. And the Wiz' page, simulator and calculator are great.

It's the nitty gritty that I still gotta work on. Like, in that one hand if I wanted to keep the 4/8, knowing WHICH 4/8 is better. And remembering the weird unmatched pairs.

For the record, I printed out this partial screenshot of the Pai Gow page for those unmatched pairs. It helped. Of course I also asked a couple times, instead of referencing the screen shot...

Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/mixed_pairs.png

glad you like tiles.....I have probably dealt a million hands of tiles and I can definitely tell you your 6/6 was the correct play...you hit one of the few hands that could hurt you but in the long run, you want that 6/6 everytime.