Can't possess software in casino's

Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval signed:

■ Assembly Bill 10, which adds “software” to the lists of devices that customers may not possess in casinos to gain advantage in gaming.



Now, you don't have to be caught using it, just possessing it. Be careful of what you have on your phone or laptop when going to a hotel/casino.

Do you have a link for this,or where did you find this.

Does "gain advantage" mean put the return over 100%, or just improve the odds at all, for example using WizPoker to play perfect video poker on a negative game?

Quote: Hunterhill

Do you have a link for this,or where did you find this.

I found it in the Las Vegas Review Journal.

Here

Quote: DRich

Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval signed:

■ Assembly Bill 10, which adds “software” to the lists of devices that customers may not possess in casinos to gain advantage in gaming.



Now, you don't have to be caught using it, just possessing it. Be careful of what you have on your phone or laptop when going to a hotel/casino.

Oh boy, this should end up being a real can of worms. Can't wait to see how they define 'software'.

If I have a virtual BJ BS card on my phone, is that going to be considered 'software'? Most casinos allow a BS card to be used.

If I email myself a copy of Wiz's odds calculations for all the craps bets, and I want to look at the HE on the Small/Tall/All bet, is that 'software'?

If I have a VP app on my phone, and I plug in my current hand to see what I should HOLD, is that 'software' ?
As far as that goes, if the app is on my phone, but I am not using my phone, is that a violation? Sounds like it.

That is going to put a lot of people in unknowing violations.

hmmm, nothing seems to be listed here.

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/70th1999/Reports/ABStatus.cfm

still diging.

This might be it.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/77th2013/Reports/history.cfm?ID=18

AB 10 - From this page you can click on the 2nd reprint to see the actual wording.

It looks like vp hand analyzers are definitely being defined as prohibited.

Nice Find DRich

It does say it is illegal to use, or posses with the intent to use the following.... Bold emphasis is mine.

So, based on this, I would say just having a phone with the app is not illegal, as long as you are not attempting to use the app.

i am not a Lawyer, but I did stay at a nationally known hotel last night.

Quote: RaleighCraps

hmmm, nothing seems to be listed here.

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/70th1999/Reports/ABStatus.cfm

still diging.

This might be it.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/77th2013/Reports/history.cfm?ID=18

AB 10 - From this page you can click on the 2nd reprint to see the actual wording.

It looks like vp hand analyzers are definitely being defined as prohibited.

Nice Find DRich

Yes, this looks like the draft: Here

Wow, it bans software on a device that:

4. Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used
in the game

When I go to Las Vegas, I play lots of video poker. I also bring along with me strategy cards for the games I play just in case I come across a decision I do not easily know off the top of my head. Since my strategy cards are just a laminated sheet of paper with letters and numbers on it does it qualify as software and or hardware? I think it most certainly would not. Any thoughts?

Quote: DRich

Quote: RaleighCraps

hmmm, nothing seems to be listed here.

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/70th1999/Reports/ABStatus.cfm

still diging.

This might be it.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/77th2013/Reports/history.cfm?ID=18

AB 10 - From this page you can click on the 2nd reprint to see the actual wording.

It looks like vp hand analyzers are definitely being defined as prohibited.

Nice Find DRich

Yes, this looks like the draft: Here

Wow, it bans software on a device that:

4. Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used
in the game

So, basically, paying attention and applying thought to games is a violation of the house rules, while using a device to assist in the application of a playing strategy is a violation of state law?

Quote: RaleighCraps

Oh boy, this should end up being a real can of worms. Can't wait to see how they define 'software'.

.

Could be the meatball in your head. (not your head specifically). The brain, it's soft. They already hate people thinking.

As a computer programmer, I find it somewhat amusing that Nevada just banned me from their casinos.

How is this different than what already applies. Where
was it OK in Vegas to use game analysis software
while playing before this bill passed. Nowhere..

The thing is the player can independently decide to make the same decision as "software" recommends, but not necessarily use it. I wish I had the government on payroll, like all these casinos seem to have, for my wishlists. Is a calculator criminal now?

Quote: EvenBob

How is this different than what already applies. Where
was it OK in Vegas to use game analysis software
while playing before this bill passed. Nowhere..

If I understand correctly, before this bill they had to catch you using the software. Now they only have to catch you possessing this software, even if you are not using or planning to use it in the casino.

Quote: EvenBob

How is this different than what already applies. Where was it OK in Vegas to use game analysis software while playing before this bill passed. Nowhere..

Quote: DRich

■ Assembly Bill 10, which adds “software” to the lists of devices that customers may not possess in casinos to gain advantage in gaming.

Maybe I'm unusual in this respect, but I tend to carry my phone, which has BJ hand analysis software, around in casinos, even if I don't use it at the table.

Quote: s2dbaker

As a computer programmer, I find it somewhat amusing that Nevada just banned me from their casinos.

Are you trying to say that your mind is easy to read? I don't see how they can ban you for what is in your head, only if the program were on your phone/ipad, etc.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

If I understand correctly, before this bill they had to catch you using the software. Now they only have to catch you possessing this software, even if you are not using or planning to use it in the casino.

I thought it was that way already. Like the cops catching
you with burglary tools in your trunk. You're going to jail
just for having them, let alone using them.

Quote: EvenBob

I thought it was that way already. Like the cops catching
you with burglary tools in your trunk. You're going to jail
just for having them, let alone using them.

burglary tools? so, I should take the crowbar and leatherman out of my trunk?

Lots of people use strategy guides for VP or even hand analyzers while they play video poker. Now that's explicitly illegal.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

Are you trying to say that your mind is easy to read? I don't see how they can ban you for what is in your head, only if the program were on your phone/ipad, etc.

I'm a Computer Programmer. I have a lot of software in my head. They don't have to read my mind, they only have to ask what I do for a living.

Quote: EvenBob

How is this different than what already applies. Where
was it OK in Vegas to use game analysis software
while playing before this bill passed. Nowhere..

Absolutely right.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

If I understand correctly, before this bill they had to catch you using the software. Now they only have to catch you possessing this software, even if you are not using or planning to use it in the casino.

Nope, the law still has the phrase "with intent to use". This is just a clarification of the old law since a smartphone is an electronic device. But if they look at your phone because you are fiddling with it near a video poker machine, they may wrongly assume you were using it, so watch out for that I guess.

In practice though, I thought most casino employees shrugged off these devices.

Quote: rdw4potus

burglary tools? so, I should take the crowbar and leatherman out of my trunk?

"or have in his or her possession, any tool, false key, pick lock, bit, nippers, or implement adapted, designed, or commonly used for the commission of burglary"

You get the idea.

Quote: RaleighCraps

It does say it is illegal to use, or posses with the intent to use the following.... Bold emphasis is mine.

But the newly-amended NRS 465.075 also says "assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use," which is the entire point of writing the software in the first place. NRS 465.088 says that a violation of NRS 465.075 is a felony; if you're a software developer and you write a VP calculator accessible via the Internet (e.g. Wizard), are you a felon multiple times over?

Wizard, if you want to get back into the Nevada court system, I'd file for a declaratory judgment ruling that the VP hand analyzer on your website (or any smartphone app you may have) does *not* trigger the language in NRS 465.075. You're the perfect person to test this: your software was existing prior to the amendment to the statute.

However, I think the real issue with the language is not the addition of "software or hardware" because, frankly, that doesn't meaningfully distinguish over "any computerized ... device." It's the removal of the definition of "advantage." By removing the definition of "advantage," and failing to define it anywhere else in NRS 465, the only sensible conclusion is that "advantage" means what it normally means in the industry: the player has a mathematical edge over the casino. And since the prohibited acts in casinos under NRS 465.075 only apply to software or a device "which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game," then it should be perfectly acceptable to use software or a device which *does not give the player an advantage.*

Bottom line, this language was (and is) clearly designed to catch card counting apps, perfect-play VP analyzers for +EV games, and roulette wheel-clocking software (in a shoe, on your iPhone, via Google Glass, etc.) All of those allow players to obtain an edge when their own mentation cannot. I am not a lawyer, but based on my reading, the act of sitting at a BJ table with a basic-strategy lookup app running on a smartphone is not a violation of this statute insofar as the edge is no different than you would obtain using a basic-strategy card printed on paper. I think the line is drawn at +EV: if a game is +EV with a particular strategy, that strategy either has to be in your head or on paper.

Now, who wants to be the first to test out that theory?

Quote: rdw4potus

burglary tools? so, I should take the crowbar and leatherman out of my trunk?

Car antennas can be considered drug paraphernalia. Then you have to explain to a court why you were driving with drug paraphernalia attached to your vehicle.

My phone comes with a spreadsheet app which can't be deleted. Spreadsheets can be used to calculate a mathematical advantage in some games, so I assume that the makers of Excel and other spreadsheets need to post a warning on the box? "This software is known to the State of Nevada to potentially cause mathematical advantage and is thus illegal within casinos."

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: RaleighCraps

It does say it is illegal to use, or posses with the intent to use the following.... Bold emphasis is mine.

But the newly-amended NRS 465.075 also says "assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use," which is the entire point of writing the software in the first place. NRS 465.088 says that a violation of NRS 465.075 is a felony; if you're a software developer and you write a VP calculator accessible via the Internet (e.g. Wizard), are you a felon multiple times over?

I'm not a lawyer, but I read "assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use," to mean you are not allowed to use your device in the casino to assist a friend sitting next to you. This would be to prevent you from claiming you are not gambling, you are just sitting there.

It is amazing how much ambiguity can be found in the simplest of statements.......

Quote: RaleighCraps

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote: RaleighCraps

It does say it is illegal to use, or posses with the intent to use the following.... Bold emphasis is mine.

But the newly-amended NRS 465.075 also says "assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use," which is the entire point of writing the software in the first place. NRS 465.088 says that a violation of NRS 465.075 is a felony; if you're a software developer and you write a VP calculator accessible via the Internet (e.g. Wizard), are you a felon multiple times over?

I'm not a lawyer, but I read "assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use," to mean you are not allowed to use your device in the casino to assist a friend sitting next to you. This would be to prevent you from claiming you are not gambling, you are just sitting there.

It is amazing how much ambiguity can be found in the simplest of statements.......

In your specific example, I think you'd be the one using the software/device. But I don't think the court would feel the need to split those hairs and both you and your friend would likely be charged in such a situation. For example, if you were the one using the card counting app but your friend was the one betting, and you were just kicking him under the table or giving him baseball-style signals, I don't think either of you would get a pass.

This is starting to bother me...

First of all, if the state legislature is gonna make this a felony, at least the should be fucking specific about it. It is *probably* not a problem to have a VP analyzer on your phone, you will *probably* not go to jail over it just isn't good enough.

Second of all, why is that the state's business anyway? Let the casinos decide for themselves what they allow and don't. At least that way, when I book my stay, I can ask them, "Listen, I got such and such software on my smartphone, is that cool with you?" If they say no, I will find a different casino.

Maybe I should give AC a try for my next trip...

Quote: Canyonero

Second of all, why is that the state's business anyway? Let the casinos decide for themselves what they allow and don't.

I can't think of anyone but casinos that had an interest in this law. That's who is behind it. Who else would it be?

Quote: rxwine

I can't think of anyone but casinos that had an interest in this law. That's who is behind it. Who else would it be?

Of course they're behind it. I'm thinking that with
the future pointing more and more to gaming in
your room electronically, they're trying to nip in
the bud the use of software, such as robots, to make
bets for you.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

Are you trying to say that your mind is easy to read? I don't see how they can ban you for what is in your head, only if the program were on your phone/ipad, etc.

And yet Dan Lubin would have readily banned you for counting. What's the difference here ? ? ?

Quote: EvenBob

Of course they're behind it. I'm thinking that with
the future pointing more and more to gaming in
your room electronically, they're trying to nip in
the bud the use of software, such as robots, to make
bets for you.

It is fair enough they wanna protect their interests. But creating some unspecific, unclearly worded legislation in order to have a blanket option to go after people they would like to get rid of for whatever reason is - well - We, The People my ass.

Reminds me of the guy that found the VP exploit. Casino lawyers scrambling to charge the guy with anything they could think of. He just *has* to be a criminal, right? Will be easier next time: Did the guy have a phone while playing? Alright, let's lock him up. (hyperbole mine)