The player's right to claim on an error

Quote: Paigowdan

Sometimes yes it is, and sometimes to acclimate people to honor their debts.


The point isn't always about what players may or may not appreciate, though sometimes it is.
The point is to correct the mistake and enforce the honoring of the debt - based on the actual result and play of the cards.

I thought the point was for the casino to make the most money and have the happiest customers in the process. I guess that's where we'll agree to disagree.

Quote: TheBigPaybak

I thought the point was for the casino to make the most money and have the happiest customers in the process. I guess that's where we'll agree to disagree.

Disagree we must. There are limits and certain balances, especially when considering that the CASINO making the most money can possible conflict with having the HAPPIEST CUSTOMERS.

The result is therefore a compromise: we'll try to:
1. stick to what the cards actually say, as to who wins and who loses, and;
2. to correct mistakes if and when possible and reasonable.

Quote: Paigowdan

Disagree we must. There are limits and certain balances, especially when considering that the CASINO making the most money can possible conflict with having the HAPPIEST CUSTOMERS.

That's our main disagreement: I think you can have both and you don't.

I think when you tick off players and slow down the game you lose both money for the casino and player happiness. I can't imagine how post-correcting these mistakes will *ultimately* earn the casino more money in the long-term, especially with all of the competition out there these days.

But in the end, that's fine- that's why I like competition and that's why I choose to frequent some casinos over others. That's why I've chosen to not ever patronize certain casinos again.

I think the compromise improves upon what you originally had though!

Often casino make player responsible for their own mistakes IE. dealt 4 of a kind the button didn't hold or you got exited and hit draw deal. I have seen cases of a no pay.things like a player had 4 to the royal but for whatever reason a mistake was made and didn't hold. or you played off a bonus hand. I could go on but it may compliant my point. casino make player responsible for their own mistakes so casino is responsible for theirs. CASE CLOSED

Yes, there is competition in LV, certainly.
But allowing all player advantaged errors to be forgiven all of the time, while allowing NO casino-favored error to be considered, is not in the cards.

Instead, all errors that can be reasonably examined and corrected get corrected, regardless of direction.
If it's feasible and reasonable to correct the play, then it will be done. Keep in mind it takes no more time to correct an error in the player's favor than for the house's favor.

Also be aware that casinos do NOT mind the loss of certain players, and are perfectly happy if certain players never come back again. Let them darken the competition's doorstep, is what some may say.

If I owe the casino some money due to a corrected play, and was made aware of it, I simply pay it without crying about it, resenting it, or holding anything at all against the casino for it; it was just the true result of the cards or dice. Some players are like "No problem - here it is." Other wail and complain about paying a debt. Gamblers are a mixed bag.

Quote: AxelWolf

Often casino make player responsible for their own mistakes IE. dealt 4 of a kind the button didn't hold or you got exited and hit draw deal. I have seen cases of a no pay.things like a player had 4 to the royal but for whatever reason a mistake was made and didn't hold. or you played off a bonus hand. I could go on but it may compliant my point. casino make player responsible for their own mistakes so casino is responsible for theirs. CASE CLOSED

It's different on machines.

On table games, quite often a player gets a do-over, or another try on the same deal, if a hand is mis-set or fouled in Pai Gow Poker, for example. As for CASE CLOSED, the player doesn't make that call. The casino does. Sometimes it is a favorable call, sometimes it is not. Let us not kid ourselves.

I refrain from voting, only because there is more than one question being asked. I have no problem with questions 1 and 2. However, bringing in question 3 causes me, and my simple mind, some problem. Putting a qualifier such as a reasonable amount of time (I believe others have commented on it) can be viewed as in the eye of the beholder. What is reasonable? To further muddy things, what if the player reached their desired time of play (whether it be for an allotted time period, or a win goal, whatever) moments after receiving a bonus pay and left the table. Remember, no ill will is imparted by the player as they did NOT know or spot an error. Would the player be on the hook for repayment? Management, in this scenario would not have had the opportunity to correct the error. Player keeps the money? What if the player changed tables immediately after the bonus pay? Based on the phrasing of the question, they are no longer in the same session (as I define it) nor are they at the same table. Management could spot the error, however, again, based on the phrasing may not have recourse to ask for repayment.

Let's flip the coin. The question states casino management may correct the play. Would they actively seek out any errors against the player, if within a reasonable amount of time, and the player is still at the table? Does management seek to correct errors against the player, or do they let it go?

Again, forgive me my simple mind. I would have no problem voting on any of the three questions, had it not been set up as an "all-or-none" vote.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, there is competition in LV, certainly.
But allowing all player advantaged errors to be forgiven all of the time, while allowing NO casino-favored error to be considered, is not in the cards.

Instead, all errors that can be reasonably examined and corrected get corrected, regardless of direction.
If it's feasible and reasonable to correct the play, then it will be done. Keep in mind it takes no more time to correct an error in the player's favor than for the house's favor.

Also be aware that casinos do NOT mind the loss of certain players, and are perfectly happy if certain players never come back again. Let them darken the competition's doorstep, is what some may say.

If I owe the casino some money due to a corrected play, and was made aware of it, I simply pay it without crying about it, resenting it, or holding anything at all against the casino for it; it was just the true result of the cards or dice. Some players are like "No problem - here it is." Other wail and complain about paying a debt. Gamblers are a mixed bag.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying to allow all player-advantaged errors to be forgiven: just those after the game has moved on- at least that would be the ideal situation in my opinion.

Take me for example: I play slots, -EV games, I'm relatively young, and have a decent amount of disposable income. I trust I have a number of years left for gaming. Now what casino wouldn't want my patronage? In the long run, a casino managed under your preferred rule set would get less business from me than a casino managed under my rule set, although ultimately, I'll lose more under the latter and yet they'll be my favorite! I don't believe I'm a unique individual in these respects. But as I say, the casinos that "get it" get my action and those that don't, don't!

Quote: bushman

I refrain from voting, only because there is more than one question being asked. I have no problem with questions 1 and 2. However, bringing in question 3 causes me, and my simple mind, some problem. Putting a qualifier such as a reasonable amount of time (I believe others have commented on it) can be viewed as in the eye of the beholder. What is reasonable? To further muddy things, what if the player reached their desired time of play (whether it be for an allotted time period, or a win goal, whatever) moments after receiving a bonus pay and left the table. Remember, no ill will is imparted by the player as they did NOT know or spot an error. Would the player be on the hook for repayment? Management, in this scenario would not have had the opportunity to correct the error. Player keeps the money? What if the player changed tables immediately after the bonus pay? Based on the phrasing of the question, they are no longer in the same session (as I define it) nor are they at the same table. Management could spot the error, however, again, based on the phrasing may not have recourse to ask for repayment.

Let's flip the coin. The question states casino management may correct the play. Would they actively seek out any errors against the player, if within a reasonable amount of time, and the player is still at the table? Does management seek to correct errors against the player, or do they let it go?

Again, forgive me my simple mind. I would have no problem voting on any of the three questions, had it not been set up as an "all-or-none" vote.

This is what Dan and I have going back and forth on: I just don't see how it can be done cleanly and ultimately, I don't see how it makes the casinos money or keeps the players happy.

In the end, I vote with my feet!

THE WORST, I had found a $200 cash out ticket in my suit jacket a few (many) years later from the Bellagio from the opening night I only wear a fancy suit jacket during grand opening invitations. so I didn't check the pockets until next invite probably the Palms They would not cash it for some reason I talked to the highest level management I could. NO NO NO I didn't get to get what I legitimately earned after the fact of my mistake.

Quote: TheBigPaybak

This is what Dan and I have going back and forth on: I just don't see how it can be done cleanly and ultimately, I don't see how it makes the casinos money or keeps the players happy.

Collecting money that a casino is rightfully owed makes the casino money.

Quote: TheBigPaybak

In the end, I vote with my feet!

It is your right and privledge to play where you feel comfortable and well-treated.

Quote: Paigowdan

Collecting money that a casino is rightfully owed makes the casino money.

While that's true, retaining a customer over the long-term makes them more money.

Generally, yes, but it depends on the customer.

Quote: Paigowdan

Generally, yes, but it depends on the customer.

We agree! And on that note, I'll need to tear myself away from WOV for a bit... :)

Casinos make way more money shorting customers then players get from dealers errors.

Quote: AxelWolf

Casinos make way more money shorting customers then players get from dealers errors.

No. Casinos actually spend more on giving players the benefit of the doubt on disputed plays.
I have never seen a gambler say to a dealer or floorman,
on a disputed play favoring the casino that was caught: "Naaaah - you keep it, - I insist!"

Legally, in the state of Nevada, if you are mis-paid but you do not notice, then you do not need to pay it back. If you know you were mis-paid then you must pay it back. It's in the book "Beat the Players".

Also, to the person who said Karma would come back to get me... Oh, a huge multi-billion casino company who makes their money profiting off people's dreams wants their $500 back and is going to try and tell me I actually owe them $1,000? F*** UM.

Please not that when you are asking for and getting the opinion of Dan, it is his personal opinion. He is not in Table Games Management and his stance and opinions on how to handle these things is way off base to what I and many others do.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Please not that when you are asking for and getting the opinion of Dan, it is his personal opinion. He is not in Table Games Management and his stance and opinions on how to handle these things is way off base to what I and many others do.

ZCore13

Wrong. I am indeed involved in table games management.

I have not only worked in casino operations for years, I design and evaluate casino games full time for a casino game distributor, where game protection and problem avoidance in design are of paramount importance, - and are based on exact knowledge of what goes on in casino table game pits, and how situations are handled by casino management and supervision. In particular, I am greatly involved with table game compliance and approval.

Perhaps ten members here at this forum have or approach my level of experience in the gaming industry, and no, Zcore13, you aren't one of them, - so speak of your own qualifications before you question those of another. If you had any real experience in the casino industry, you then would have known of mine. In no way do I wish to criticize you, but if you are incorrect about my experience, I will speak to set the record straight.

And in this regard, questioning my gaming experience really questions your own.

My gaming experience aside, ALL of the points that I have made are of a factual basis, presented only for reasons of debate, and yes, they have generated some worthy debate. I will also point that people who have trouble falsifying my arguments, or feel uncomfortable with my positions, consistently reduce themselves to ad hominen attacks.

Quote: dyepaintball12

Legally, in the state of Nevada, if you are mis-paid but you do not notice, then you do not need to pay it back. If you know you were mis-paid then you must pay it back. It's in the book "Beat the Players".

If you are told of the situation, you are aware of the situation.

Quote: dyepaintball12

Also, to the person who said Karma would come back to get me... Oh, a huge multi-billion casino company who makes their money profiting off people's dreams wants their $500 back and is going to try and tell me I actually owe them $1,000? F*** UM.

1. Karma comes back to us all. It is also stated in the way that "there is no free lunch," for that matter. This is particularly true at casinos. It is not a place to make money, it is a place to get action (which is quite different), and where you pay for that action. If you are known for trying to take shots in the casino pit, or for excessive claiming, then you will get noticed by casino management, and will find that the going gets rougher. This is the Karma of casinos.

2. People who walk into casinos "because of a dream" are particularly deluded. Gamblers walk into casinos because they appreciate the action of a good gambling session, which is a reasonable expectation, and quite different.

3. As stated earlier here in this thread, a gentleman honors his gambling debts, as he does other debts. If you state ".....wants their $500 back and is going to try and tell me I actually owe them $1,000? F*** UM." says a lot of the speaker and his willingness to make good on debts owed.

I know of your experience and you are not in Table Games Management. You work for a Table Games distrubuter/developer. The standard definition of Table Games Management would be Management in the Table Games Department of a casino.

Your thoughts on how to handle situation with players in an actual casino setting are terrible. Accusing advantage players, card counters, players that don't say anything if overpaid and many other things like that as cheaters and sometimes even criminals. Your recent addition at Galaxy Games gives you no better skills at handling issues within the Table Games Pit than you had before as a dealer.

Before taking credit for how good you are at your job and how you are at a higher level in the industry than eveyone (except maybe 10), please find/develop a game for Galaxy that makes it. Good job on your EZ Pai Gow, but you didn't do that with Galaxy.

You are no better or worse than anyone. Your opinions are your opinions, not those of any Table Games Department. I would laugh you out of any meeting where you gave me some of the opinions you have on this board. And those same opinions and attitude will end up creating a short career for you at Galaxy. Nobody else at Galaxy has the anti-customer attitude you do. They have grown in the industry by being friendly, fair, accomodating, open to ideas and easy to work with, which is the opposite of their major competition. You might fit in better with SHFL if you continue with the same thought process.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

I know of your experience and you are not in Table Games Management. You work for a Table Games distrubuter/developer. The standard definition of Table Games Management would be Management in the Table Games Department of a casino.

Let's get this straight: Not only I was in the casino's table game pit for years, I now spend a LOT of time in MANY casinos' table game pits concerning the operations of - of all things - casino table games. The fact that I have risen in this business from a "table with a name tag in the pit" to an "office with a title" - and where I track, monitor, and at times dictate the performance of table games that are used in table game pits - is all about table games management.

Quote: Zcore13

Your thoughts on how to handle situation with players in an actual casino setting are terrible.

No, they're actually spot on, - and so the discord concerning me here at this forum shows that this forum is indeed the 1% - "the incorrigible one-percenters" - of more serious and hard-core gamblers who think very differently and mesh very poorly with 99% of the "normal" casino playing population, whom I have incidentally gotten to know very well precisely because I had dealt for so long.

Quote: Zcore13

Accusing advantage players, card counters, players that don't say anything if overpaid and many other things like that as cheaters and sometimes even criminals.

No, all that's legal - yes, - but ethically challenged as all hell at times is the heart of a true gambler.

Quote: Zcore13

Your recent addition at Galaxy Games gives you no better skills at handling issues within the Table Games Pit than you had before as a dealer.

Let me see....I had tremendous customer service reviews from 99% of the players (such as doctors, high school principals, and social gamblers of normal lives), while getting absolutely horrible reviews and complaints from the 1% of the shot-taking AP players I helped monitor, bring down, and protect my employer from....hmmm, a great track record here in the casino pit in service of the casino operator.

Quote: ZCore13

Before taking credit for how good you are at your job and how you are at a higher level in the industry than eveyone (except maybe 10), please find/develop a game for Galaxy that makes it.

I have. One game, a Baccarat game, was just approved in Nevada, and there are new, easier to deal paytables on a number of existing games that are in use in the field, with a LOT more coming.

Quote: Zcore13

Good job on your EZ Pai Gow, but you didn't do that with Galaxy.

Now, I did that with DEQ, another fine table game distributor.

Quote: Zcore13

You are no better or worse than anyone.

No, I am worse. I am blunt, rude, to the point, oftentimes offensive, and inconsiderate.

Quote: Zcore13

Your opinions are your opinions, not those of any Table Games Department.

No. The official face of the table games department is "we love you! C'mon down and play! Buy in for $1,000? Great!"
But the real story is that there is a push against the One-percenters, and with little love lost. Again, the table games population that is sought by operators is the generous, gracious social player, not the card-counter, shot-taker or AP player. This is fact, the reality of the casino populations and the view from the pit.

Quote: Zcore13

I would laugh you out of any meeting where you gave me some of the opinions you have on this board. And those same opinions and attitude will end up creating a short career for you at Galaxy. Nobody else at Galaxy has the anti-customer attitude you do. They have grown in the industry by being friendly, fair, accomodating, open to ideas and easy to work with, which is the opposite of their major competition. You might fit in better with SHFL if you continue with the same thought process.

That is exactly what I do: I am the friendliest, most social, most engaging person you'll see, but I will speak the rude truth on game protection, and what can be expected from 1% of the population. The meetings I have at Galaxy, DEQ, or with industry people from SHFL or United Coin are great, and I am held in high regard. But you say that I suck at what I do as an ad hominen attack on me, simply because you disagree with me, while knowing squat of my accomplishments, or how I truly operate in a business I know a great deal about. Now you, Zcore13, have been lambasting me because we disagree, AND because I gave a strong defense of my position on gamblers' integrity - or their honest lack of it in many cases. This is not anti-customer service, this is simply the straight dope on game protection, on what to expect on both in table game design and in the pit. All without mincing words and in being very frank on what it takes to protect games - or our customers' money that is often wrongfully or unethically gotten by the one percent of gamblers which drives up the costs for both our operator as well as for 99% of the innocent player population, - and THESE are the people and the business outfits I am most concerned about, less so about the opinions of me here or how I'm liked.

Believe me, if I gave patronizing, log-rolling platitudes to the stuff I heard here, I'd be both fundamentally dishonest to you and a fraud to the members here. And if I were universally praised here at this place, I would have trouble sleeping at night. For the record, I am actually praised and held in very high regard in the industry by the distributors, the operators, and 99% of the player population -

- But not here. and that's all right.

I'm sure you are a good guy outside of some of your table games views. Actually, I've heard that you are from at least one person that knows you. So we'll have to just agree that we disagree on most of your thoughts on ethics, the members here and customers in general.

ZCore13

For some odd reasons, I think Zcore13 is in Table Game Management and may even be Dan's customer (oops), I meant Galaxy's customer.

Quote: RoyalBJ

For some odd reasons, I think Zcore13 is in Table Game Management and may even be Dan's customer (oops), I meant Galaxy's customer.

I don't think ZCore13 is in table games management. He may be, and if so, fine, but I feel this way because of his approaches and attitudes, below.

1. [to a customer in the casino pit] "You're here at this casino to AP and run down games on us? Great - take our money, please! How excellent and ethical that is!"

2. "Dan has one of the most successful new Pai Gow games out, AND is held in high esteem for both solid game design and game protection? Pfft! He would be laughed right out of one of MY casino's meetings - that's for sure! Clearly he's an obnoxious, no good person who doesn't know anything about this industry or game design, - and he is a discredit to his company, too!"

3. [in the casino pit] "A player was grossly overpaid just a short while ago, and he damn well knew it and he said nothing - and he's still on the game? Please don't bother the gentleman by asking him to make good on it, now! - and ignore any calls from surveillance...."

Attitudes like this make me skeptical of his table games management qualifications, because what I generally hear in table games management is this:
1. [in the pit] "We have an counter running down BJ-17. Back him off to Roulette, or else he's done for the night."

2. "Dan? Good guy, hard worker, and a good game designer; an asset to his company."

3. [in the pit, after being notified by surveillance that a player was overpaid; floorman speaks:] "Sir, I'm sorry to trouble you, it seems that our dealer had overpaid you $50 on a hand two rounds ago. This was verified by serveillance. May I trouble you to return it?" [and the player either says yes or no.]

Now these are the attitudes and approaches that I hear in table games management on these situations, which I disagree with Zcore13 on.

Quote: Zcore13

I'm sure you are a good guy outside of some of your table games views. Actually, I've heard that you are from at least one person that knows you. So we'll have to just agree that we disagree on most of your thoughts on ethics, the members here and customers in general.

And that's fine with me. And please attack any and all of my arguments. What's not fine with me is attacking me personally ("He provides bad customer service;" "Dan would be laughed out of one of MY meetings.")

Have you met me? Have you ever been to a meeting I conducted, or I was involved in? have you spoken with people who have dealt with me at work, or myself, - either in the casino pit or in the office? I say you have not. I do believe you got upset because I attacked your arguments, and in response, you drifted into an area where you attacked me and not my arguments after a point. I believe this, and feel that it is not the way to go.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you are told of the situation, you are aware of the situation.


1. Karma comes back to us all. It is also stated in the way that "there is no free lunch," for that matter. This is particularly true at casinos. It is not a place to make money, it is a place to get action (which is quite different), and where you pay for that action. If you are known for trying to take shots in the casino pit, or for excessive claiming, then you will get noticed by casino management, and will find that the going gets rougher. This is the Karma of casinos.

2. People who walk into casinos "because of a dream" are particularly deluded. Gamblers walk into casinos because they appreciate the action of a good gambling session, which is a reasonable expectation, and quite different.

3. As stated earlier here in this thread, a gentleman honors his gambling debts, as he does other debts. If you state ".....wants their $500 back and is going to try and tell me I actually owe them $1,000? F*** UM." says a lot of the speaker and his willingness to make good on debts owed.

You are a joke. Clearly you are a delusional gambler who has a God complex. My ONE EXPERIENCE of saying I won't pay them their money back will not get me banned for life.

Yeah, #2, hoping for a good gambling session, you are one of the millions of people who think they can beat casinos through their own insane means. You are actually an insane person who has no merit and I would never, ever, respect for any reason.

Quote: dyepaintball12

You are a joke. Clearly you are a delusional gambler who has a God complex. My ONE EXPERIENCE of saying I won't pay them their money back will not get me banned for life.

God complex?
I said I was worse than most PEOPLE, forget about God: I'm Rude, blunt, inconsiderate, etc.
I also said I know and work in the gaming (gambling) business.
This is not devine, God-like stuff, or by any means putting myself up on a pedestal.
But I defend myself from cheap-ass shot takers, and I believe you're one with your insane God accusation.

Quote: dyepaintball

Yeah, #2, hoping for a good gambling session, you are one of the millions of people who think they can beat casinos through their own insane means.

I am not a delusional gambler.
I don't "hope" for a good gambling session. All gambling sessions composed of good action are good.
I accept my loses as comfortably as my wins - without having to scam a casino, or to justify trying to do that.

Quote: dyepaintball

You are actually an insane person who has no merit and I would never, ever, respect for any reason.

Who the hell are you, really?
If a guy like you respected me, it would be like getting kissed by the devil.

Quote: Paigowdan

Who the hell are you, really?
If a guy like you respected me, it would be like getting kissed by the devil.

Dyepaintball is a very successful and accomplished AP. Dan beleives AP's who play by the legal rules, but use their brains to think and win, are criminals. I am not the least bit surprised that we are at this point. lol

Paigowdan wants players to do the job of his game's dealers and anyone that isn't taking away from their fun by doing the house's job for them is apparently a crook. Why are people even entertaining him? Now it is resorting to name calling and turning into a trainwreck.

IMO this is one of the worst gambling threads I have ever seen in this forum.

I will gladly supervise table games for the casino, as long as it is paying me a supervisor's salary and benefits.

Until then, I'm looking out for myself, and let the casino worry about looking out for itself.

deleted

You're pretty far off base my friend. I tried to call a truce and gave you a compliment and you continue. I really don't like to talk about professional accomplishments. I am just as important as the cleaners, floor attendants, dealers and every other position at my casino. Any one of us can cause customers to return or not return and any one of us can be replaced, maybe not with someone as good, but replaced nonetheless. The casino always carries on.

1. I have been a dealer, dual rate Pit Boss, Pit Boss, Dual Rate Shift Manager, Shift Manager and am now a Table Games Manager. I was recently a panelist on the State of Table Games at the National Indian Gaming Association Conference. My resume would probably at least let me compete and probably get me just about any Table Games job in any casino.

2. There is nothing wrong with someone that is trying to be an AP. It's not their fault if the dealer is exposing a card, it's the dealers. You would accuse the customer of doing something wrong. I would talk to the dealer and ask them to please follow the procedures and protect your cards. It is the casinos job to make sure the dealers and games they are providing are not beatable and are played and paid correctly.

3. I've explained this previously, but if a player is overpaid and we don't catch it by the next hand, we eat it. I might tell the player we made a mistake and tell them I'm going to let them keep it, because that let's them know we are watching and that we cut them a break, but I will not make them give the money back. Chances are they are going to give it back anyway, within their normal play. It's one bet. It's not that big of a deal. No different than a comp.

4. I have no idea how old you are, but I'm guessing at least into your 50's, maybe even 60's. Your attitude and thoughts about players are old school. They don't fly in the real world these days. You can continue to say you are in "Table Games Management", but you are not and I don't think you ever have been.

5. My point on laughing at your thoughts on customers and AP stand. I would (and may still someday) probably just stare at you and respectfully try and contain my laughter at some of the things you say. I don't know if I could stop it though.

6. I have never met you, although I have spoken to people who have. But you've given me a pretty good idea about yourself on this board. The only thing I'm upset about is how you claim to represent the "Casino", when that is not the attitude of many in the business I know, including myself. As I said, your way is outdated and old school. I am not (and if you feel I did I apologize) attacking you personally. I totally disagree with your opinion on handling situation and customers in table games. I believe most of your arguments are biased and closed minded.

7. I am a believer that people in general are good. I invite all players, AP or not, to play. If I'm getting beat at my own games, I have to adjust, not them. The customer pays the bills and it's my job to provide them with the entertainment they desire and to make sure the games are fair for both sides.

So if you still doubt that I'm in Table Games Management after this, ask Dean or Ron about me tomorrow. They'll know who I am if you mention the guy who found High Card Flush for them...

ZCore13

Quote: kewlj

Dyepaintball is a very successful and accomplished AP. Dan beleives AP's who play by the legal rules, but use their brains to think and win, are criminals. I am not the least bit surprised that we are at this point. lol

No, I think it is 100% legal, which makes it NON-criminal.

However, I think it is an unethical scam against casino businesses.

deleted

Quote: Paigowdan

No, I think it is 100% legal, which makes it NON-criminal.

However, I think it is an unethical scam against casino businesses.

lol, playing a game by the casino's own rules, only using your intelligence, is a scam?

i guess by that definition, any time you profit in anything via your intelligence, is a scam. buy a stock at 20 and sell it at 30, that is a scam! you just shorted the buyer 10 dollars!

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And what about those extreme coupon shoppers that get a ton of grocery items with coupons and also get cash back instead if paying?

I think anyone who essentially "stress tests" a system is good for the system as they help to discover flaws which ultimately will improve the system itself.

It's just not realistic to think people who see an opportunity won't work that opportunity. Everybody I think understands this on some level and with regard to casino gambling, most people in the end aren't really "getting away" with anything, anyway. And for the few APs that do, how many look at them and try to be like them and fail? APs actually are performing a service for casinos on some levels, even if they(the casinos) don't want to admit it...

Quote: onenickelmiracle

How often when players complain is some ambiguous and/or unwritten rule the response followed by a no?

Is there even an answer to a question so vague?

Quote: TheBigPaybak

I think anyone who essentially "stress tests" a system is good for the system as they help to discover flaws which ultimately will improve the system itself.

It's just not realistic to think people who see an opportunity won't work that opportunity. Everybody I think understands this on some level and with regard to casino gambling, most people in the end aren't really "getting away" with anything, anyway. And for the few APs that do, how many look at them and try to be like them and fail? APs actually are performing a service for casinos on some levels, even if they(the casinos) don't want to admit it...

I agree and in addition, there are soooooooo many people that say they can count cards and get an advantage over the casino and win money consistently and there are really VERY, VERY few people who do. Why ruin the fun for 99.9% of the people for the .1 (or less I would guess) that are so abnormally skilled that they can win?

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

You're pretty far off base my friend. I tried to call a truce and gave you a compliment and you continue.

I felt you tried to be quite hurtful, and had resorted to needless personal attacks. This does not constitute a debate. Rip apart arguments, not people, I say. I had been rough myself, I admit. I have nothing against you personally, and was surprised of the drifting off the arguments that we did.

Quote: Zcore13

I really don't like to talk about professional accomplishments. I am just as important as the cleaners, floor attendants, dealers and every other position at my casino. Any one of us can cause customers to return or not return and any one of us can be replaced, maybe not with someone as good, but replaced nonetheless. The casino always carries on.

You may indeed discuss industry-related accomplishments. It's all right. If you are proud of this industry and work, mention it.

Quote: Zcore13

1. I have been a dealer, dual rate Pit Boss, Pit Boss, Dual Rate Shift Manager, Shift Manager and am now a Table Games Manager. I was recently a panelist on the State of Table Games at the National Indian Gaming Association Conference. My resume would probably at least let me compete and probably get me just about any Table Games job in any casino.

You have every right to be proud of this, and I mean it.

Quote: Zcore13

2. There is nothing wrong with someone that is trying to be an AP. It's not their fault if the dealer is exposing a card, it's the dealers. You would accuse the customer of doing something wrong. I would talk to the dealer and ask them to please follow the procedures and protect your cards. It is the casinos job to make sure the dealers and games they are providing are not beatable and are played and paid correctly.

I feel that there is something wrong with trying to be an AP, or in its approval, in terms of a being a manager who is responsible for a casino business' loss prevention posture and effectiveness. The house edge on a game IS how the house pays its bills, and is the equivelant of an admission fee or restaurant bill. (If I managed a Buffet, I wouldn't tolerate people sneaking in extra guests for free, or sneaking out extra food in Tupperware; or if I managed a cinema, I wouldn't allow people to sneak in through the fire door to welsh on the admission fee, or tolerate walk-outs on a bill in my restaurant. This is how I see the issue of AP play, be it technically legal or illegal. Against the house rules is simply that: flat betted or you're done for the night.

Quote: Zcore13

3. I've explained this previously, but if a player is overpaid and we don't catch it by the next hand, we eat it. I might tell the player we made a mistake and tell them I'm going to let them keep it, because that let's them know we are watching and that we cut them a break, but I will not make them give the money back. Chances are they are going to give it back anyway, within their normal play. It's one bet. It's not that big of a deal. No different than a comp.

Very fine, seriously. A good customer service posture to take, but I can and do see it at times be appropriate, especially during the same session, to notify the player and dealer of this situation, and to politely ask for the amount returned, as it was NOT the true result of the hand, which is something that should be respected in gambling. And just as a player should be recompensed if he himself were accidentally shorted.

Quote: Zcore13

4. I have no idea how old you are, but I'm guessing at least into your 50's, maybe even 60's. Your attitude and thoughts about players are old school. They don't fly in the real world these days. You can continue to say you are in "Table Games Management", but you are not and I don't think you ever have been.

Firstly, I have done so much in this area that I have written IC's (Internal Controls) for casino operators on both game dealing procedures and game protection that are offered and used in countless table game pits. I also design games, modify existing games, and examine submitted games for commercial viability, game protection and "fraudibility" befor distribution, where very fine industry men like you lease, install, and operate these casino table games as per instructions and procedures that I had defined and specified to you, working on behalf of your own casino operator. Furthermore, the work I do in gaming compliance for countless table games for multiple distributors, for countless states and jurisdictions got these table games approved for use and installed in hundreds of american casinos. This is indeed Table games management work, and we actually work hand-in-hand, as much as we bicker here. If you don't think that THIS is table games management work, then call it what you want. It is enough that I know what it is, its great importance, and that I do it well enough so that both you and I run these games that our livelihoods depend on.

As for the other points: I'm early 50's, and yes, it is an old school posture that I accept as 'acceptable today,' - namely:
1. Scamming a live table games operation of a casino business, through one of many possible mechanisms and in bad game faith, is unacceptable and is to be discouraged or (politely) not tolerated. Believe it or not, the vast majority of table games executives see 100% eye-to-eye with me on this, your fine work history not withstanding.
2. That the results of the cards or dice simply decide the winners and losers, and that errors caught should be corrected and restored back within a reasonable time period to its "true and honest game play results that actually happened", all feelings aside.

Quote: Zcore13

5. My point on laughing at your thoughts on customers and AP stand. I would (and may still someday) probably just stare at you and respectfully try and contain my laughter at some of the things you say. I don't know if I could stop it though.

Let them stand, it doesn't matter; if I brought some joy and laughter and interesting fodder to you, then great. I may have a budding career as a comedy writer: if my jokes work as well as my game designs, I'm Richard Pryor. But I will say #5 here from you makes your claim of a truce ring hollow.

Quote: Zcore13

6. I have never met you, although I have spoken to people who have. But you've given me a pretty good idea about yourself on this board. The only thing I'm upset about is how you claim to represent the "Casino", when that is not the attitude of many in the business I know, including myself.

We've never met. And you have NO real idea of me from this board. You have a belief, a perception of me, as I do of you.

I don't "represent" the industry, I just state what the views are, and they not generally what is often espoused here by most at this board. Gaming Industry views are actually FOR clean play, FOR game protection, FOR reasonable obeyance to procedure, FOR solid and provable accounting methods, and FOR customer service, - which is not be confused with tolerating scamming plays, dirty money and questionable game plays going down on live table games that our operators depend on for both their revenue and reputation. Call me crazy for seeing it way, you certainly won't be the first to do so here.

Quote: Zcore13

As I said, your way is outdated and old school. I am not (and if you feel I did I apologize) attacking you personally. I totally disagree with your opinion on handling situation and customers in table games. I believe most of your arguments are biased and closed minded.

Firstly, I agree with some old school stuff, not a lot. Secondly, you had lodged personal attacks against me, and not against my arguments. Disagree with me on something, fine, but I will say that you have never seen me deal with players for years, or how I work with operators, or gaming commissions, or our sales crew, or train dealers on new games, or the excellent customer service reviews that you or many here would never in a million years believe that describe my actual service. And it just doesn't matter. As for me being biased, I am, and I admit it, certainly by the standards of this board's populace. Scamming and dirty play is not what legitimate gaming is about, and politely backing off or 86-ing a player is 100% fine customer service when it is called for.

Quote: Zcore13

7. I am a believer that people in general are good.

We disagree here. I don't believe people in general are good. I used to. I believe that most people are selfish, greedy, would get away with whatever they could and not care if not caught, and don't give a damn about anyone else except their own hides, and that of their families. I believe locks on table game lids are there for a reason, that surveillance is necessary and is there for a reason, and that guys like me, as part of my job, spot sometimes HUGE trap-door faults on table games that would be ripped open and raped in live action play if not fixed before released. [Some surveillance tapes can be re-titled, "When Humans Attack"]. In this area, I've saved more than a few people's jobs in this industry. Just today I caught a doozy, an implementation for an online shoe game with some highly countable features where the specs for it were to be shoe dealt and not one shuffle per deal, just a GOLDEN opportunity for a 'bot to make a payday and a half for a good number of people chilling out at home with their IP addresses. I was the last one to catch it and clean it up before going production. Averted a disaster, just doing my job. For this I AM a black hat, not a white, in all too many people's eyes.

Quote: Zcore13

I invite all players, AP or not, to play.

I make it bulletproof before the install. An ounce of prevention may save an otherwise great game.

Quote: Zcore13

If I'm getting beat at my own games, I have to adjust, not them.

If I'm getting beat on my own games (literally), or games I've redesigned, I have totally failed, and I am a day late and a dollar short. I can't adjust, I'm out, I'm gone.

Quote: Zcore13

The customer pays the bills and it's my job to provide them with the entertainment they desire and to make sure the games are fair for both sides.

The house should provide customers the entertainment they desire - within reason and limits. If some customers got what they fully wanted, "BJ tables" would take on a whole different meaning, and THAT would be going too far. And yes, fair for both sides is pretty much in the true result of the cards, which is sacrosanct, and with similar and equally two-way standards of game play correction.

Quote: Zcore13

So if you still doubt that I'm in Table Games Management after this, ask Dean or Ron about me tomorrow. They'll know who I am if you mention the guy who found High Card Flush for them...

You found a great game, a real gem, and you deserve a fine finder's fee, a least a stake house soiree. The game has been a lot of my recent work, and I give it the respect and consideration of my own flesh and blood. That gem I take very seriously.
As for Ron, he had left for an opportunity that was too fine to pass up, and we miss him. Dean's another gem of a guy.
I believe you're in the business, and what I have heard from some in this business I feel is out there, as some, actually not many outside this gem of a place, find me.

But let me tell you how I am so nutty in the gaming business:
1. I believe that gambling is NOT a viable source of income from the player's side of the table. There, it is an entertainment, pure action, and an entertainment that you generally should be expected to pay for, like any other form of entertainment and service. Now this view around here is absolutely insane. "Clean Play in gambling based on the results of the cards and dice? Pfft, screw THAT, that's friggin' crazy, and ANYONE who espouses THAT position for the gaming industry should be flamed here!" I feel a dealer's error doesn't make it your money, as the true results of the cards decide. Yeah, I know.

2. Scamming a business is unethical and unaccptable, for any business, even a casino house. And this view around here is absolutely unethical, hence my status on this, too.

Like I said, I take no offense for being considered off the wall insane and unethical, because in real life outside of this place, a huge majority of people agree with me. Especially on these points. No sweat.

Quote: TheBigPaybak

I think anyone who essentially "stress tests" a system is good for the system as they help to discover flaws which ultimately will improve the system itself.

I believe in provably correct design in the drawing room to include game protection and procedures. The old school way of "whip it up and let it out" without adequate testing and design consideration is more problematical.

Quote: Thebigpayback

It's just not realistic to think people who see an opportunity won't work that opportunity.

I agree, it is unrealistic in light of human nature, which I feel is somewhat corrupt and opportunistic. A good game design is solid, without unknown trap doors to be breached later.

Quote: TheBPB

Everybody I think understands this on some level and with regard to casino gambling, most people in the end aren't really "getting away" with anything, anyway.

Some may strangely argue that that isn't "understanding that nothing was gotten away with," but "denial that something was gotten away with." It is how you look at it. Design something with exploitable features, it gets exploited when humans enter the picture, espcially if MONEY is involved.

Quote: TheBPB

And for the few APs that do, how many look at them and try to be like them and fail? APs actually are performing a service for casinos on some levels, even if they(the casinos) don't want to admit it...

This is like saying locksmithing was advanced by burglars, so the burglars DID provide something positive and of good for mankind. and they did.

DAM!! that DAN I was just about to say I respected his gambling industry position and views and how well written he was. (not that he cares what I think)I though he had a fair view. then you wrote,"No, I think it is 100% legal, which makes it NON-criminal. However, I think it is an unethical scam against casino businesses". (OUCH) I DISLIKE HIM NOW due to how he views innocent Advantage Players. I think he's on the wrong message board, isn't there a casino industry leaders MB? Why hang with low life advantage players. Your on a MB geared towards Advantage Players or people who aspire to become like one. Without Advantage Players I don't think this message board would exist at least it would not be as successful. Your like a NARC walking into a mobsters bar. Its people like you who get good Advantage plays shut down for Advantage Players. I'm sure you misguide casino management with your terrible view about advantage players. I believe people with your views on Advantage Players hurt the casinos and non Advantage Players both equally in the long run. Eventually with guys like you putting the fear of god I mean the fear of Advantage Players into the casinos minds the strip will eventually all have even money Blackjack.

Concerning my statement about casinos profiting from over or underpayments, I'm talking everything Including thieving employees MAIDS, dealers, porters etc, unnoticed overcharges, unnoticed short changes, expired chips, unregistered slot card points, bait and switch promotions, coin counters that notoriously shorted people very often, coin machines underpaid, coin out video poker/slot machines shorted players constantly . Old slots ALWAYS ate coins prob thousands a day, *slot machine candle light would light up lock out and say OVERPAID if an extra coin came out. But never said underpaid when you got shorted. I got a hand full of slugs from a $5 machine the casino took them and 86'ed me. Later I was vindicated but not refunded. VP buttons malfunction often on small hands yes but it adds up. LOST,EXPIRED DAMAGED SLOT/SPORTS TICKETS they make a fortune on that. If you don't believe me you can give me the cash for mine at %50 face value and then you can cash them in yourself along with $1000 in long expired sports tickets. Clearly sometimes people noticed and got refunded. Most of the time people didn't notice. At times even when it happened they rejected refunds even minutes after the fact. Try telling them you were short changed an hr later on a Machine or Table game. Out of respect for Advantage Players "people who want to thin the casinos edge" I made sure not to Abbreviate the term Advantage Players.

Quote: Zcore13

I agree and in addition, there are soooooooo many people that say they can count cards and get an advantage over the casino and win money consistently and there are really VERY, VERY few people who do. Why ruin the fun for 99.9% of the people for the .1 (or less I would guess) that are so abnormally skilled that they can win?

ZCore13

Right- what sense does it make from both an entertainment or business perspective? I'm reminded of some political saying which essentially said, "We don't mind that the poor are poorer as long as the rich are less rich..."

To be clear, I'm not advocating that casinos let APs "run wild" and ruin their bottom line, but ultimately as a service business, there should be a customer focus in my humble opinion. If some worker is rude to me for no reason? I may not go back. If the pit rules against me and cuts me no slack(like when I switched my hands in Pai Gow Poker while drinking and put my "high" cards in the "low" spot and they ruled against me), I may not go back. There doesn't have to be such an "us vs. them" mentality, beyond that of the natural competitive sense, as players are trying to "win". For those of us that like to play, thankfully there's more competition these days.

+1 to ZCore's comments.

Dan's position on AP are well known.

It's up to the pit and the table games designers to design games that can't be scammed. There is an easy way to take away counting in BJ, and that is CSM. The reason why this hasn't been done is because the casinos wants to invite in counters who are not good or are decent but can't manage their money.

As for hole-carding, etc, AP players run a risk of being caught and 86d. It's still dealer error though that causes these games to be exploited.

As for casino errors favoring the casino, if the casino mistakenly pays the player through no fault of its own, the player should be able to keep the money after the next hand is dealt. It's the cost of doing business, a dealer error.

Players at a casino are its customers, not its vendors. The casino is the one providing customer service, not the customers. If the casino makes a mistake that favors its customers, the casino should balance customer service with its need to make a profit, even if the customer was complicit and knew about the mistake.

Every business does this. A manufacturer will not bill its customer an extra $10 for a good or service after the fact because it realized its price was wrong. If I get charged $1.00 for broccoli because the cashier weighed it as broccoli instead of the $2 I should have paid as a unit because they were broccoli florets, I don't expect the cashier to come running after me to collect the $1.

If CZR gets a bill from a supplier for 150 hours of consulting time for Galaaxy's services, but in an an audit Dan discovers that he actually consulted for 155 hours, does Dan call CZR and say "you owe me for 5 hours?". Or if CZR does its matching for services based on a timesheet and the timesheet says 150 hours but Dan bills for 155 hours, is CZR going to pay 150 or 155? It's always is going to pay the lower of the two or ask for a credit note for the 5 before it pays the 155. If Dan sits on the phone and declares that the timesheet was in error and that he adamantly demands 5 hours of money, you can bet your a** that Payables will be on the phone to Purchasing to end that vendor relationship.

And that's what Dan doesn't get. It's not a trading relationship with the casinos and its players. The players are the casino's customers. It's the casino's job to serve the customer. If the casino makes errors that favor the casino, pay the customer. If the casino makes errors that favor the customer, let the customer keep it. It's error. Error always falls on the side of the customer.

That doesn't mean that the casino shouldn't invest money in protecting itself from making errors. Absolutely, it must.

I love Zcore. He saves me the need to respond to Dan. Thanks, Z!

Quote: boymimbo

+1 to ZCore's comments.

Dan's position on AP are well known.

It's up to the pit and the table games designers to design games that can't be scammed. There is an easy way to take away counting in BJ, and that is CSM. The reason why this hasn't been done is because the casinos wants to invite in counters who are not good or are decent but can't manage their money.

As for hole-carding, etc, AP players run a risk of being caught and 86d. It's still dealer error though that causes these games to be exploited.

As for casino errors favoring the casino, if the casino mistakenly pays the player through no fault of its own, the player should be able to keep the money after the next hand is dealt. It's the cost of doing business, a dealer error.

Players at a casino are its customers, not its vendors. The casino is the one providing customer service, not the customers. If the casino makes a mistake that favors its customers, the casino should balance customer service with its need to make a profit, even if the customer was complicit and knew about the mistake.

Every business does this. A manufacturer will not bill its customer an extra $10 for a good or service after the fact because it realized its price was wrong. If I get charged $1.00 for broccoli because the cashier weighed it as broccoli instead of the $2 I should have paid as a unit because they were broccoli florets, I don't expect the cashier to come running after me to collect the $1.

If CZR gets a bill from a supplier for 150 hours of consulting time for Galaaxy's services, but in an an audit Dan discovers that he actually consulted for 155 hours, does Dan call CZR and say "you owe me for 5 hours?". Or if CZR does its matching for services based on a timesheet and the timesheet says 150 hours but Dan bills for 155 hours, is CZR going to pay 150 or 155? It's always is going to pay the lower of the two or ask for a credit note for the 5 before it pays the 155. If Dan sits on the phone and declares that the timesheet was in error and that he adamantly demands 5 hours of money, you can bet your a** that Payables will be on the phone to Purchasing to end that vendor relationship.

And that's what Dan doesn't get. It's not a trading relationship with the casinos and its players. The players are the casino's customers. It's the casino's job to serve the customer. If the casino makes errors that favor the casino, pay the customer. If the casino makes errors that favor the customer, let the customer keep it. It's error. Error always falls on the side of the customer.

That doesn't mean that the casino shouldn't invest money in protecting itself from making errors. Absolutely, it must.

Good points, well said!

Quote: boymimbo

+1 to ZCore's comments.

Dan's position on AP are well known.

It's up to the pit and the table games designers to design games that can't be scammed.

Yes. And older games such as blackjack weren't designed with that approach. It was assumed that BJ was unfraudible until Thorpe came along and proved otherwise. and the subsequent repair and practice of BJ is one of slop, fudging, and fuzzy calls made on the game.

Quote: boyminbo

There is an easy way to take away counting in BJ, and that is CSM. The reason why this hasn't been done is because the casinos wants to invite in counters who are not good or are decent but can't manage their money.

For casinos to staddle that line, - to invite and tempt lesser AP's to come in just to hang themselves is fundamentally dishonest.

Quote: boyminmbo

As for hole-carding, etc, AP players run a risk of being caught and 86d. It's still dealer error though that causes these games to be exploited.

No. Sometimes it is design error. And dealer error doesn't make the money the player's (or the casino's money if the other way, for that matter), if it can be reasonably and politely corrected and restored. Neither does a teller's error, or a clerk's error.

Quote: boymimbo

As for casino errors favoring the casino, if the casino mistakenly pays the player through no fault of its own, the player should be able to keep the money after the next hand is dealt. It's the cost of doing business, a dealer error.

The "cost of doing business" is a great catch-all. Bank errors are corrected and restored to what the deposit check actually said. There is a "this is what is actually was..." But, by contrast, banking involves money in the form of checks. Gambling, on the other hand involves money in the form of cheques.

Quote: boymimbo

Players at a casino are its customers, not its vendors. The casino is the one providing customer service, not the customers. If the casino makes a mistake that favors its customers, the casino should balance customer service with its need to make a profit, even if the customer was complicit and knew about the mistake.

True. And casinos have that discretionary leeway and use it. I agree with it in many circumstances.

Quote: boymimbo

Every business does this. A manufacturer will not bill its customer an extra $10 for a good or service after the fact because it realized its price was wrong. If I get charged $1.00 for broccoli because the cashier weighed it as broccoli instead of the $2 I should have paid as a unit because they were broccoli florets, I don't expect the cashier to come running after me to collect the $1.

Agree - of course should be that way. It's just that other businesses/industries have made better strides in accounting, inventory control, and loss prevention - closer to implementing and achieving correct accounting of transaction, when gaming is playing catch-up.

Quote: boymimbo

If CZR gets a bill from a supplier for 150 hours of consulting time for Galaaxy's services, but in an an audit Dan discovers that he actually consulted for 155 hours, does Dan call CZR and say "you owe me for 5 hours?". Or if CZR does its matching for services based on a timesheet and the timesheet says 150 hours but Dan bills for 155 hours, is CZR going to pay 150 or 155? It's always is going to pay the lower of the two or ask for a credit note for the 5 before it pays the 155. If Dan sits on the phone and declares that the timesheet was in error and that he adamantly demands 5 hours of money, you can bet your a** that Payables will be on the phone to Purchasing to end that vendor relationship.

No, not all all. First of all, accounting systems and their checks and balances are a bit more reliable than Blackjack's ancient game protection systems, which are approximate (and hopefully and generally) average out in practice if there are no errors alone. Secondly, the declared - and approved and acceptable - billing amount is a declaration of a non-error. And if in error, we have discretionary call - just like a floorman - to let it slide as a customer service gesture. A dealer's error, on the other hand, is an error which a call will also be made on. (But more so, I find this paragraph a Red Herring personal attack, because a debate argument can be offered here without all the "Dan at work this and Dan at work that" scenario. It gets to be like, "well, what if you mother, on a Tuesday night, walked into a casino and....what about that!")

Quote: boymimbo

And that's what Dan doesn't get. It's not a trading relationship with the casinos and its players. The players are the casino's customers. It's the casino's job to serve the customer. If the casino makes errors that favor the casino, pay the customer. If the casino makes errors that favor the customer, let the customer keep it. It's error. Error always falls on the side of the customer.

I get it. Errors always falls on the customer - which is why comps are reduced, house edges of some countable side bets are over 25%, why single deck is 6:5 and not 3:2, etc. And I actually think that it is a wrong way to pay for it. In other words, AP play really hurts the other gamblers who are our customers, not the casino, who'll always get the money to remain in business if possible. It is the casino's job to serve the customer, but the question comes up: "Is customer 'x' really here to gamble, or is he here for another game - and should we serve THAT?"

Quote: boymimbo

That doesn't mean that the casino shouldn't invest money in protecting itself from making errors. Absolutely, it must.

But the errors should be caught before the game goes production, and properly handled if it is in production.

As an aside, "gambling" is about the reliance on the result of the cards or dice without influence either way, and shouldn't be about "tolerating petty casino scams" as a "cost of doing business." That, in contrast, is the management of a whole different cat-and-mouse side show that has insidiously entered the picture and is often poorly addressed in this industry. And it is not true gambling or gaming.

havent read the thread but seen the title and thought i would share a story to see what you think about it.

My buddy was on a tear at the craps table. He was a little drunk and just running what people call "lucky or good" he bought it for a couple hundred bucks and within an hour or so had $10k in front of him.

This then happened to him. He began to roll the dice. I am not sure exactly what he was betting but he claimed if he won he was pressing and he said he would occasionally chuck $500 on the field.

He picks up the dice puts $500 on the field (max bet at northern quest in washington state) Throws the dice and it was a short roll that landed a 12. He said up to that point he hadnt been warned at all.

He ended up having a super melt down and got banned from the casino for 1 year. He also never go paid on his roll.

apparently the floor was called, not sure if tapes were looked at, but im guessing they were. ???

is this legit? here is the part that kills me, if it rolls a 7 they wipe the table its not like they call short roll and let him re-roll.

thoughts?

Quote: nezbit

He picks up the dice puts $500 on the field (max bet at northern quest in washington state) Throws the dice and it was a short roll that landed a 12. He said up to that point he hadnt been warned at all.
He ended up having a super melt down and got banned from the casino for 1 year. He also never go paid on his roll.
Apparently the floor was called, not sure if tapes were looked at, but im guessing they were. ???
Is this legit? here is the part that kills me, if it rolls a 7 they wipe the table its not like they call short roll and let him re-roll.
thoughts?

So why play table games?

Quote: nezbit

havent read the thread but seen the title and thought i would share a story to see what you think about it.

My buddy was on a tear at the craps table. He was a little drunk and just running what people call "lucky or good" he bought it for a couple hundred bucks and within an hour or so had $10k in front of him.

This then happened to him. He began to roll the dice. I am not sure exactly what he was betting but he claimed if he won he was pressing and he said he would occasionally chuck $500 on the field.

He picks up the dice puts $500 on the field (max bet at northern quest in washington state) Throws the dice and it was a short roll that landed a 12. He said up to that point he hadnt been warned at all.

He ended up having a super melt down and got banned from the casino for 1 year. He also never go paid on his roll.

apparently the floor was called, not sure if tapes were looked at, but im guessing they were. ???

is this legit? here is the part that kills me, if it rolls a 7 they wipe the table its not like they call short roll and let him re-roll.

thoughts?

Could you provide more details on the situation? It seems like a pretty shitty thing to do on the casino's part, but you left out a lot of details in between "landed a twelve" and "super melt down and got banned from the casino for 1 year." If they outright refused to pay him for the field bet right away and called it a no-roll, and it's indeed true that he had not been warned before that, I find it very poor customer service. He's drunk for one thing; even the most serious "dice influencers" would not try to control their throws under the influence of alcohol. It also depends on how short the roll was. Did one die hit the back wall and one came up just short? Or did both dice scarcely make it past the prop bets? They could be rightly suspicious of him trying to take a shot with such a big field bet.

I'm guessing they called no-roll and refused to pay him on the field bet, and then he started raising a stink and things escalated from there, resulting in his 1-year ban.