pai gow issues, ths is a joke- pai gow dan?
tried to
but I play pai gow at my local casino
terrible spread 25-1000 but dealers make a million mistakes, most recently the started forcing the dealers to cut and turn the cards. it amazes me because they dealer stacks his cards and does not spread them, so Im almost sure edge sorting has very little effect- imput anyone?- more importanty because of the amounts I play security is on me a lot. Three times in one day security called down and made me give back money 15-30 minutes later due to the dealer setting the hand wrong. Tonight the dealer started putting the cards in the wrong spot I told the floor and they called upstairs and acknowledged it but said it would not change anything - really security wouldn't change anything? I spoke to gaming and tried to deal with it to now prevail. My argument was that my following bet was based on the result of the last hand so if they turned a push into a loss or a win into a lloss then it affected each decision after. they didn't care. Do I have any recourse?
Quote: strictlyAPguess pai gow dan is asleep
1. Actually, I have a life: I went out with my wife this Sunday night, (also to a casino), and played Pai Gow, UTH, and 3 card with her. At night I might be at a show, a restaurant, a movie, a casino, or a lot of places.
2. Dealers are dealers - some are good, some are lousy. If dealers were sharp, they'd be shift managers or casino owners with an office and a title, instead of a table and a name tag. ("Do you want fries with that shake" kind of thing.) It a hard job, you have to be on your toes, and you have to be an entertainer, a mathematician, have great hands, put up with all sorts of people and respond with grace, - and often do this for little money. Good help is hard to find, and dealing with gamblers and rude floormen makes the job less desirable.
3. Tonight, while at a local casino, some of the dealers were struggling here and there with the new progressive system, some weren't, and all were setting hands correctly. Still slowing the game down if a bad dealer. The dealer you get is the dealer you get. Didn't get upset, couldn't get upset, and they all made it through. Let's just say it was not a LVS or Caesars property tonight.
4. There is a reason why I often play at the Venetian or a Caesars property instead of at a local's place: some operators are just better than others, and it shows. This is the difference between a restaurant operated by Wolfgang Puck, and a Jack-in-the-box. This is the difference between an American Motors Gremlin, and a BMW or Mercedes of the same year. In terms of quality control, God is in the details, and sin is in the slop. Some places are more devine, - or just better run, - than others. If you're in a neck of the woods where you don't have much choice, it's more difficult to pick and choose where to go.
5. If you knew you didn't win (because of a mis-set hand that you knew darn well wasn't a win for you), then why take the money you didn't rightfully win; a dealer's error does not make the money yours, it gets corrected. Be an upright person, and point out: 'you have a flush', and push THEIR money back to them, and don't worry about it. If you have to be told to return money, - you're putting yourself under their microscope.
Quote: StrictlyAPIt amazes me because they dealer stacks his cards and does not spread them, so Im almost sure edge sorting has very little effect- imput anyone?- more importanty because of the amounts I play security is on me a lot.
Pai Gow Poker, and casino games in general, are supposed to have a reasonable amount of game protection. Edge sorting, counting, et al, are not a part of PGP. I consider it one of the fine game's blessings.
1. Why would you expect the customer to do the casino's job if he is not on the payroll? When you go to McDonald's, do you take a mop and clean the bathrooms while you wait for your food?
2. Who is there to look out for the customer when he should have been paid and wasn't, and doesn't notice? Aside from "no one."
3. If your argument is based on morals or ethics, then do you require a player to be 100 percent familiar and trained in the game's rules and procedures before he sits down to play? Otherwise, how can a player realize and correct an error in his favor? Are you saying that the player needs to be as well versed -- in fact, better -- in the game's rules than the dealer appointed by the casino to adjudicate the hand? Are you saying it is immoral to play a game where you are not as good as the dealer in policing errors in your favor? Do we all need to go to dealer school before we play a hand in a casino?
Quote: sodawaterDan, you STILL have not answered these three questions regarding self-reporting an incorrect payout:
1. Why would you expect the customer to do the casino's job if he is not on the payroll? When you go to McDonald's, do you take a mop and clean the bathrooms while you wait for your food?
STILL did not Answer them? Strictly AP never asked me these questions - only you did. So don't say otherwise. Being a "player's job" is NOT an issue here, as it is simply a players right and option - again NOT a "job" - to speak up and address ANY errors or funny business going on at a live table that he has money on. And I will answer as first presented.
For a player to notice something amiss, this isn't doing the casino's job, as a player may speak up freely without being silenced. If you get shortchanged or overpaid, it's your right to speak up, - and you may, without it being a "job." Some people - (sadly fewer when dealing with gamblers) - feel integrity and clean play on a game is everyone's responsibility if something funny is noticed. Let me put it this way: every so often I get change for a $20 when I pay with a ten. I return ten dollars, stating that I paid with a $10 bill, and not a $20. Then they say "thank you." It doesn't matter if I'm at a gas station, a 7-11, or a casino. I simply do not take money I know I am not entitled to, doesn't matter where I am, and NOT as a job. If I know it, then it is my responsibility, too. and it's the same in either direction. I don't consider my personal response, or my personal responsibility, any sort of a salaried job.
Quote: sodawater2. Who is there to look out for the customer when he should have been paid and wasn't, and doesn't notice? Aside from "no one."
Well, the very same casino workers and floormen and surveillance. I've seen floormen instruct dealers to pay customer 'x' an extra $20, because he had a Full house instead of a three-of-a-kind, etc., and was accidentally shorted by the dealer. It goes both ways. I have often seen surveillance call down to have the floor and dealers pay extra to a customer from an innocent error. It doesn't matter which way the mistake occurs, and floormen and dealers don't care which way, it just gets corrected the same way. Generally, the vast majority of innocent mistakes that shortchange a player get noticed by the player immediately and on-the-spot without need of surveillance to get involved, (often at a loud volume), but mistakes which overpay a player are generally met with absolute silence and a hand picking up dirty money, so the casino is simply noticed more often correcting the former, - but which the player usually tries to slip through unnoticed for the later. It's just human nature.
Quote: sodawater3. If your argument is based on morals or ethics, then do you require a player to be 100 percent familiar and trained in the game's rules and procedures before he sits down to play?
I don't assume or require that, never said that, and of course some players are beginners. Surveillance or the floor still has the same responsibility, and when an error is caught they will pay the player if the dealer makes a mistake, just as they would the other way. Furthermore, I base my arguments on procedures and clean play, and not on "morals and ethics" per se, as that is often a mute point at a gambling board. [cough.]
Quote: sodawaterAre you saying that the player needs to be as well versed -- in fact, better -- in the game's rules than the dealer appointed by the casino to adjudicate the hand?
No, not at all, AND I never said that. You did. What I said is that:
1. all mistakes are to be corrected if possible or noticed, regardless of direction, IF a dealer makes a mistake, and it is caught and pointed out.
2. Players may also point out mistakes as they happen: a player may say, "Sir, I think you have a Flush" or, "Sir, I have a full house, not a three of a kind, so I win $50 on the Treasure bet, and not $30." In fact, this is quite common, and helpful to the game when it happens, as hands that are in the process of being "taken-and-paid" with the cards open may be addressed by the dealer on the spot without need to floor supervision.
Quote: sodawaterAre you saying it is immoral to play a game where you are not as good as the dealer in policing errors in your favor? Do we all need to go to dealer school before we play a hand in a casino?
No, I never said that; again, you're saying it, sodawater.
What I said:
1. all mistakes are to be corrected if possible or noticed, regardless of direction, IF a dealer makes a mistake, and it is caught and pointed out.
2. Players may also point out mistakes as they happen: a player may say, "Sir, I think you have a Flush" or, "Sir, I have a full house, not a three of a kind, so I win $50 on the Treasure bet, and not $30." This does not require anything of the player. If he notices, then fine. If he doesn't, then surveillance or the floor may notice it. Whatever. If it is not noticed, then it is not noticed. In fact, pointing out an error or a hand-setting, etc., is quite common, and helpful to the game when it happens, as hands that are in the process of being "taken-and-paid" with the cards open may be addressed by the dealer on the spot without need to floor supervision.
i bet 1k on a hand and push , dont even stand at table to see hand becuase i was on phone,
next hand I bet 1k again and lose
30 minutes later they come down and say my push was a loss and take money- so had I lost the original 1k i would only have bet 2oo on the hand , now instead I lost 2k- you think thats right?
then again dealer sets cards on wrong number and takes money after the fact-
in particular at this one casino the mistakes are multiple times daily- what recourse does one have
lets say you bet a nunber in roulette, the dealer pays out wrong but you are not familiar with the correct payout, you leave and place all the money on a hand of blackjack and lose- does the casino then have the right to make you pay back money you dont have?
Quote: strictlyAP
lets say you bet a nunber in roulette, the dealer pays out wrong but you are not familiar with the correct payout, you leave and place all the money on a hand of blackjack and lose- does the casino then have the right to make you pay back money you dont have?
If you're still in the same casino...yes, they'll make you pay it back or "86" you...if you leave the casino and NEVER come back, then they eat it.
If you LEFT the casino and DO come back...they'll make you pay it, mostly likely.
Taking Nevada Casino's money is the equivalent to Industrial Espionage; since casino's are Nevada's Industry...
Quote: strictlyAPdan my question is more of this....
i bet 1k on a hand and push , dont even stand at table to see hand becuase i was on phone,
It wasn't the dealer's fault, - you stepping away and being on the phone while losing the hand.
It was, however, the dealer's fault for pushing that hand that actually lost, - so surveillance and the floor later came in and corrected it. WTH.
If I have money in action, especially $1,000 a hand action, I'd pay attention to it. If I'm at a table - phone call goes to voice mail.
Quote: strictlyAPnext hand I bet 1k again and lose.
Okay, so now you actually lost two in a row, as you lost $2,000 to the house, but only paid $1,000 to the house - until they later corrected it.
Question for you Strictly AP: what if you had WON the first hand at $1,000, but it was pushed when you were on the phone, and they later came and awarded you $1,000? (This scenario happens less often, because the player is usually screaming "I WON, I WON, GOD DAMMIT, GIVE ME MY MONEY!!!!" Right on the spot. But it does happen also, I've seen it many times.)
Quote: strictlyAP30 minutes later they come down and say my push was a loss and take money- so had I lost the original 1k i would only have bet 2oo on the hand , now instead I lost 2k- you think thats right?
Yes. You had indeed lost two hands, but had only paid for one hand, - as you were wrongfully given a push when you should have lost both and paid for both, so they corrected it when caught and verified.
Saying "I would have only bet $200" is actually meaningless, as you STILL could have dropped your bet to $200 from $1,000 - but you didn't. For all we know, you could have raised it to $2,000 after the first hand if they had taken the loss, to double up to catch up, for all we know.
This is like saying "I'm owed $10,000 from when the Giants won the superbowl, because I WOULD HAVE bet it if some scenario 'x' would had happened, - but I didn't bet it. But Gosh Darnit, I think I'm still owed this, AND I can't seem to move forward in my life as a result. It is all their fault!" This is not the way to be as a gambler.
Quote: strictlyAPthen again dealer sets cards on wrong number and takes money after the fact-
in particular at this one casino the mistakes are multiple times daily- what recourse does one have?
What the hell casino is this? It sounds like an incompetent jinxed casino from Hell. STAY AWAY FROM THIS JOINT !!!
Quote: strictlyAPlets say you bet a nunber in roulette, the dealer pays out wrong but you are not familiar with the correct payout, you leave and place all the money on a hand of blackjack and lose- does the casino then have the right to make you pay back money you dont have?
The casino has the right to make you pay back money they were shortchanged, just as you have the right to speak up and demand the money you were shortchanged. They'll review the surveillance tape, and if what you said was true, they will indeed pay you - just as they would ask for it back if it were the other way.
Let me say this.
Last night I played at Sunset. Lost my ass at Pai Gow. Then Lost my ass at Three Card Poker. Then Lost my ass at Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. AND my wife was in a nasty mood, with her yelling, "G'damn, you're such a LOOOOSER, you BLEW all that money!" She yapped at me the way many typical gamblers torture themselves with "that nagging guilt trip voice in their heads" which I think I'm hearing here. And if I had won, my wife would have said "You're such a GENIUS, you're so DREAMY! - and I'm sending that money to my mother, and I am going shopping tomorrow." I told her that I can't go gambling with her anymore if she's going to be like that. You go into a casino with an "allocation" that if you lose - YOU ACCEPT WITHOUT FREAKIN' TEARS OR EXCUSES.
You see how it works:
1. You allocate some money that YOU KNOW MAY BE GONE FOREVER.
2. Then You GO TO A CASINO.
3. You win, great. You lose, it happens.
4. If you lost, then You don't ever cry, or second guess yourself, or torture yourself, or claim it was "their fault that I lost" - especially if you step away from the table to yap on the phone at $1,000 a hand. Geez, turn the phone OFF and GO TO A BETTER CASINO!
Quote: sodawaterDan, you STILL have not answered these three questions regarding self-reporting an incorrect payout:
1. Why would you expect the customer to do the casino's job if he is not on the payroll? When you go to McDonald's, do you take a mop and clean the bathrooms while you wait for your food?
2. Who is there to look out for the customer when he should have been paid and wasn't, and doesn't notice? Aside from "no one."
3. If your argument is based on morals or ethics, then do you require a player to be 100 percent familiar and trained in the game's rules and procedures before he sits down to play? Otherwise, how can a player realize and correct an error in his favor? Are you saying that the player needs to be as well versed -- in fact, better -- in the game's rules than the dealer appointed by the casino to adjudicate the hand? Are you saying it is immoral to play a game where you are not as good as the dealer in policing errors in your favor? Do we all need to go to dealer school before we play a hand in a casino?
I will answer the question how it should be answered and how it is handled where I work.
1. It is not the customers job to review what the dealer does. It is the dealers job (and the house) to deal the game correctly. The customer does not have to police the game.
2. Pit Supervisors and Surviellance should be looking for errors, for and against the house. Their job is to make sure the game and payouts are correct, both ways. Dealer errors should be noted for future training purposes and corrected immediately if possible.
3. Again, it's not the players responsibility. Players may be drinking, socializing, un-aware of the rules, not paying attention, or a number of other things. The house can't and should't even try to decide if a player knew he was not paid correctly. It's the houses job to train and make sure the game is being dealt and paid correctly. Where I work if a mistake is caught where a player is over paid or paid when he shouldn't have, before the next hand, we will ask for the amount back. If they player refuses they are told they are no longer welcome to play. If the mistake is caught after the next hand the player is allowed to keep the money. If there is a mistake where a player is short paid or not paid when he should have been, we will correct this mistake any number of hands afterward and give the player the correct amount and appologize for the mistake.
Quote: strictlyAPdan my question is more of this....
i bet 1k on a hand and push , dont even stand at table to see hand becuase i was on phone,
next hand I bet 1k again and lose
30 minutes later they come down and say my push was a loss and take money- so had I lost the original 1k i would only have bet 2oo on the hand , now instead I lost 2k- you think thats right?
then again dealer sets cards on wrong number and takes money after the fact-
in particular at this one casino the mistakes are multiple times daily- what recourse does one have
lets say you bet a nunber in roulette, the dealer pays out wrong but you are not familiar with the correct payout, you leave and place all the money on a hand of blackjack and lose- does the casino then have the right to make you pay back money you dont have?
You should not be asked to return the $1,000 30 minutes after the fact. That is bad customer service. As mentioned above, if it's during or right after the hand, that's a different story. 30 minutes later or at another table or the next time you visit is wrong.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I will answer the question how it should be answered and how it is handled where I work.
1. It is not the customers job to review what the dealer does. It is the dealers job (and the house) to deal the game correctly. The customer does not have to police the game.
I never said he has to, either.
I said he MAY be involved in the game's proceedings, and he MAY have input in policing the game. He MAY SPEAK UP ON WITNESSING ERRORS OR FUNNY BUSINESS on a game, and he should indeed. Hello?
Quote: Zcore132. Pit Supervisors and Surviellance should be looking for errors, for and against the house. Their job is to make sure the game and payouts are correct, both ways. Dealer errors should be noted for future training purposes and corrected immediately if possible.
Check.
Quote: Zcore133. Again, it's not the players responsibility. Players may be drinking, socializing, un-aware of the rules, not paying attention, or a number of other things. The house can't and should't even try to decide if a player knew he was not paid correctly.
The house doesn't decide if a player "knew this or that," and I never said it should know that. I said a floorman makes a call, or surveillance calls down with what the house had determind that play result to be. However, the player MAY SPEAK UP if he spots something - and he should, and he has a right to, in either direction. Now this is NOT the house trying to decide what a player "knew" - this is the house trying to reconstruct a game play, and this is different. It is ALSO the house listening to and considering a player's claim. This is different, too.
Now, a player can be considered to be responsible - if he is a knowledgable player: as we have seen, people make mistakes with players' money, and it is one's responsibility to be observant with one's cash on the line. Duh. This doesn't mean that it is the player's job. A person is either responsible, - or damn foolish to be oblivious or ignorant, when cash is on the line. In this way, yes, there is some responsibility on part of the player. It is irresponsible to blindly trust someone who is making minimum wage from NOT making errors with your money, - as far as it depends upon you.
Quote: Zcore13It's the houses job to train and make sure the game is being dealt and paid correctly. Where I work if a mistake is caught where a player is over paid or paid when he shouldn't have, before the next hand, we will ask for the amount back. If they player refuses they are told they are no longer welcome to play.
Check.
Quote: Zcore13If the mistake is caught after the next hand the player is allowed to keep the money. If there is a mistake where a player is short paid or not paid when he should have been, we will correct this mistake any number of hands afterward and give the player the correct amount and appologize for the mistake.
The house's call. Different managers and different houses have different policies.
Quote: Zcore13You should not be asked to return the $1,000 30 minutes after the fact.
Sure they should, and it can be brought up and asked, - depending upon the casino house. It goes both ways when surveillance reconstructs a play, in order to correct a payout. Surveillance will call down, and they will be taken seriously on the floor. This is how it works in the pit. What if it is discovered that a player is owed money 30 minutes after an error? Does this mean the house gets to wrongfully keep it? I think not.
So Yes, a player can indeed be asked to return it later, too. It is tacky, it is petty, it is bad customer service, but it is the option AND the right of the casino house. And the player is never compelled to go back to that joint. I'll say this, ZCore13: if a table money error "shouldn't be correct 30 minutes after it occurs," then I would absolutely recommend for players to learn and watch the games they are on. As a responsibility to simply being aware when money's on the line, not as a job. Certainly you would agree that players do have, at the very least, the right to pay attention to the game play, and that they are also allowed to speak up on game play errors and funny business going down concerning their money.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I stated in my reply that if it is found out that the player is owed money, at any time, we return it. Unless it's caught before the next hand, the Customer always benefits from the result. I have returned money days after the original incident.
ZCore13
ZCore13
