reno
reno
Joined: Jan 20, 2010
  • Threads: 124
  • Posts: 721
March 30th, 2010 at 10:33:34 AM permalink
This topic was discussed briefly in another thread on this forum, but I felt that it deserved its own thread.

Sometimes dealers make mistakes.

Example 1: About 10 years ago my buddy put down a $10 bill on a craps table at Circus Circus Reno and called out "change, please". The craps table was busy, and the distracted dealer didn't look closely at the bill. The dealer gave my friend $100 in chips. My buddy was astonished and speechless... but picked up his chips and proceeded to gamble with it. It was a fun night.

Example 2: I'll never forget the craps dealer at the Flamingo who repeatedly forgot to remove my place bets after a shooter seven-ed out.

Example 3: Though I have never personally done this, there are plenty of gamblers who have been lucky enough to find a 3 card poker dealer who exposes the hole card.

Dealers are only human, and humans make mistakes.

But it's not a one-street:

A video poker player who doesn't seek out generous payouts is making a mistake.

A craps player betting the Big 6/8 (instead of placing 6/8) is making a mistake.

A roulette player who chooses a double zero wheel is making a mistake.

A blackjack player who ignores basic strategy is making a mistake (possible exception: card counters).

Any player who doesn't use a player card is making a mistake (possible exception: card counters).

And any player drinking alcohol is making a mistake.

In general, I don't begrudge or resent the casino for profiting off of a gambler who hits a hard 19 against a dealer 4. In fact I think it's silly that some casinos limit doubling down to 9, 10, 11-- there are more drunk gamblers than sober ones, after all, so give us the freedom. (One exception: I do resent casinos for offering the Big 6/8. It just doesn't belong on a craps table but it's there as a trap with new naive craps players as the intended victims. And while the difference between single and double zero roulette is 2.7 percent, the house edge on the Big 6/8 is a shameless 9 percent!)

But here's my point: personally I never feel guilty when I reap the benefit of dealer error. It's just not an ethical dilemma for me. Why? Because if the casino is allowed to profit from player mistakes, I ought to be allowed to profit from dealer mistakes. No double standards.
cclub79
cclub79
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 1147
March 30th, 2010 at 10:59:21 AM permalink
I personally don't think giving incorrect change is the same as offering bets that are disadvantageous. If you put $100 and got $10 in checks and it was busy and you didn't notice (because you were too drunk), but then the DEALER did or the PIT did, I'm almost 100% sure they would give the money you were owed, even if you said nothing. They would not try to hide it in my estimation. Now, they might not if they also didn't notice, but that's a completely different scenario than you noticing and they didn't.

I also think that some of your mistakes listed above are not the same as incorrect payouts or incorrect change. Some people go into the expensive supermarket and pay more money for the same products and don't use coupons, or buy gas that's a few cents more a gallon even though the station across the street is a little cheaper. Because those people exist, I don't feel it's right to get free gas from a pump that's screwing up at the expensive place, just because they are benefiting from mistakes made by others paying too much for their gas. If you bought gas there, and the cashier gave you $20 back instead of $10, would you say something? You can say it's not the same thing, but often I think we feel, because the money is moving back and forth so much at a casino and we aren't using cash, that it isn't really anyone's money until the end of the night, or the trip, or whatever. I'll admit I've enjoyed my share of overpays before, but I don't know if I think it's right. It's definitely a great discussion question.
jeremykay
jeremykay
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 69
March 30th, 2010 at 12:43:41 PM permalink
I agree that players should take full advantage of dealer mistakes. The Wiz has stated before that more mistakes are made in the house's favor than the player's favor, so taking advantage of the dealer mistakes in your favor may not even put you on an even playing field. I'm not a card counter, so casinos make plenty of money off me. Allowing a dealer to pay me out on a push in BJ or forgetting to take my come bets with a seven on a come out is not going to break the bank. I would never actively cheat or steal, but I'm willing to take every advantage the casino is willing to give.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 184
  • Posts: 10436
March 30th, 2010 at 1:00:18 PM permalink
You left out:

Any player sitting at a 6:5 BJ table is making a mistake - for himself as well as for other BJ players. (The more people that will play 6:5, the more casinos will offer it rather than 3:2!)



Quote: reno

One exception: I do resent casinos for offering the Big 6/8. It just doesn't belong on a craps table but it's there as a trap with new naive craps players as the intended victims.

While I agree that the big 6/8 shouldn't even be offered, leaving it there has a useful purpose for ALL the players: It makes it easy to spot a novice!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Malaru
Malaru
Joined: Mar 22, 2010
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 274
March 30th, 2010 at 1:21:07 PM permalink
Ive had the dealer error in my favor several times- one time the dealer really didnt seem to knoe the game at all- the worst Id ever seen.. but I always correct them or tell them about what they did. Id rather just play honest- if im not doing the best I can wiht games thats my own fault but if the dealer is just trying to go by the rules and do a good job- im not going to make thier rack short by turning a blind eye- at best its a simple oversight noone else will no- at worst the casino was watching them make mistakes and the employee is fired and im bared because it seems we were working in tandem.
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
reno
reno
Joined: Jan 20, 2010
  • Threads: 124
  • Posts: 721
March 30th, 2010 at 2:10:59 PM permalink
Quote: Malaru

Ive had the dealer error in my favor several times- one time the dealer really didnt seem to knoe the game at all- the worst Id ever seen.. but I always correct them or tell them about what they did.



I genuinely respect your honesty and integrity. You're unwilling to exploit a new, inexperienced dealer for your own gain. And yet Nevada casinos are very willing to exploit new, inexperienced player by offering Big 6/8 in craps. Kudos to you for not stooping to their level.
konceptum
konceptum
Joined: Mar 25, 2010
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 790
March 31st, 2010 at 12:35:30 PM permalink
I guess my question gets to be: how much arguing do we do with whoever is making the mistake, before just giving up and taking the advantage?

Quote: reno

Example 1: About 10 years ago my buddy put down a $10 bill on a craps table at Circus Circus Reno and called out "change, please". The craps table was busy, and the distracted dealer didn't look closely at the bill. The dealer gave my friend $100 in chips.



While this hasn't happened to me personally, I did see this happen at the Riverside in Laughlin. The table was incredibly busy, and person gave $20, around about the same time that a few other people were buying in for $100 each. All with the same dealer. I think because of that, the dealer pushed $100 in chips to each player, including the one who gave $20. With the stack of chips in front of him, he stated that he didn't think it was his, to which the dealer replied it was. So, he picked up the chips. I looked at him, and I knew that he hadn't bought in for that much, and I could see on his face that he knew it as well. But again, should you argue it with the dealer? If you already mentioned that it wasn't the right amount for you, and they insist it is, do you say it again? How many times? How much arguing?

My analogy is any kind of fast food, retail, whatever place, where they give me too much change. I always say something. Most of the time, they realize it, and I hand them back the overage they paid me. On the other hand, a few times, people have insisted that they gave me the right amount of change. I don't see it as a big priority for me to argue it with them and try to insist back that they overpaid me. I figure, I brought the error to their attention, and if they aren't willing (or aren't smart enough) to see that they overpaid me, then they had their chance.

At the same time, I would say that if you found out that a particular dealer would get flustered whenever busy, and that if you threw down a $20 at the same time as another person throwing down $100, and about 20% of the time you might get $100 in chips, then I'd have to say that I think you're a very dark area. Now, you're deliberately taking advantage of something. However, at the same time, when playing 3-card poker, I've been known to sit where I can see the cards coming out of the shuffler. Depending on the dealer, I might get an advantage based on seeing cards that I shouldn't.

Quote: reno

I do resent casinos for offering the Big 6/8. It just doesn't belong on a craps table but it's there as a trap with new naive craps players as the intended victims.



So I'll take the flip side on this. Me, personally, I don't like to talk to people at all about what bets they should or shouldn't be making. I just don't see it as my responsibility. However, I have seen people make bets on the Big 6/8, and have other players, and sometimes even the dealers and pit boss, mention to them that placing the 6 or 8 would yield better payoffs. Sometimes, these players move their bets, and other times, I hear them making reasons and excuses why they prefer the Big 6/8. (Everything from it's easier to reach, that they got lucky betting that one time, to they only want to bet $5 and not $6.) So, how much arguing should be done to them? Is it the same thing, where you brought it to their attention, and if they aren't going to take the good advice, just let it go?
derik999
derik999
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 131
April 3rd, 2010 at 6:41:43 AM permalink
The only time I've ever profited off of dealer error was when she forgot to take the $5 on the losing BJ hand I had.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
April 3rd, 2010 at 6:56:57 AM permalink
In many stores when a cashier makes a mistake and the register comes up short, he has to pay for the missing money. Is this the case with table game dealers as well? If it is, then consider that you're profiting from someone else's misfortune.

As to a tactical mistake, such as flashing a card or hitting on hard 17, that's just business. It's like a football player scooping up a fumble and running it in for a touchdown (except Marshal, of course). You don't expect the defense to pick up the ball, hand it back to the offense and say "here, you dropped this."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
derik999
derik999
Joined: Feb 27, 2010
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 131
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:17:33 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In many stores when a cashier makes a mistake and the register comes up short, he has to pay for the missing money. Is this the case with table game dealers as well? If it is, then consider that you're profiting from someone else's misfortune.

As to a tactical mistake, such as flashing a card or hitting on hard 17, that's just business. It's like a football player scooping up a fumble and running it in for a touchdown (except Marshal, of course). You don't expect the defense to pick up the ball, hand it back to the offense and say "here, you dropped this."



The only situation I've seen like this is when a guy playing craps claimed he'd placed x amount of dollars for a certain bet and the dealer accidentally put it back in the house's chip stack. He went off on the dealer and the only way to solve the problem was to take the amount of money he said he bet (he did no such thing as I watched him only put out enough for one number) out of the stack and place the bet.

  • Jump to: