profiting from dealer error

This topic was discussed briefly in another thread on this forum, but I felt that it deserved its own thread.

Sometimes dealers make mistakes.

Example 1: About 10 years ago my buddy put down a $10 bill on a craps table at Circus Circus Reno and called out "change, please". The craps table was busy, and the distracted dealer didn't look closely at the bill. The dealer gave my friend $100 in chips. My buddy was astonished and speechless... but picked up his chips and proceeded to gamble with it. It was a fun night.

Example 2: I'll never forget the craps dealer at the Flamingo who repeatedly forgot to remove my place bets after a shooter seven-ed out.

Example 3: Though I have never personally done this, there are plenty of gamblers who have been lucky enough to find a 3 card poker dealer who exposes the hole card.

Dealers are only human, and humans make mistakes.

But it's not a one-street:

A video poker player who doesn't seek out generous payouts is making a mistake.

A craps player betting the Big 6/8 (instead of placing 6/8) is making a mistake.

A roulette player who chooses a double zero wheel is making a mistake.

A blackjack player who ignores basic strategy is making a mistake (possible exception: card counters).

Any player who doesn't use a player card is making a mistake (possible exception: card counters).

And any player drinking alcohol is making a mistake.

In general, I don't begrudge or resent the casino for profiting off of a gambler who hits a hard 19 against a dealer 4. In fact I think it's silly that some casinos limit doubling down to 9, 10, 11-- there are more drunk gamblers than sober ones, after all, so give us the freedom. (One exception: I do resent casinos for offering the Big 6/8. It just doesn't belong on a craps table but it's there as a trap with new naive craps players as the intended victims. And while the difference between single and double zero roulette is 2.7 percent, the house edge on the Big 6/8 is a shameless 9 percent!)

But here's my point: personally I never feel guilty when I reap the benefit of dealer error. It's just not an ethical dilemma for me. Why? Because if the casino is allowed to profit from player mistakes, I ought to be allowed to profit from dealer mistakes. No double standards.

I personally don't think giving incorrect change is the same as offering bets that are disadvantageous. If you put $100 and got $10 in checks and it was busy and you didn't notice (because you were too drunk), but then the DEALER did or the PIT did, I'm almost 100% sure they would give the money you were owed, even if you said nothing. They would not try to hide it in my estimation. Now, they might not if they also didn't notice, but that's a completely different scenario than you noticing and they didn't.

I also think that some of your mistakes listed above are not the same as incorrect payouts or incorrect change. Some people go into the expensive supermarket and pay more money for the same products and don't use coupons, or buy gas that's a few cents more a gallon even though the station across the street is a little cheaper. Because those people exist, I don't feel it's right to get free gas from a pump that's screwing up at the expensive place, just because they are benefiting from mistakes made by others paying too much for their gas. If you bought gas there, and the cashier gave you $20 back instead of $10, would you say something? You can say it's not the same thing, but often I think we feel, because the money is moving back and forth so much at a casino and we aren't using cash, that it isn't really anyone's money until the end of the night, or the trip, or whatever. I'll admit I've enjoyed my share of overpays before, but I don't know if I think it's right. It's definitely a great discussion question.

I agree that players should take full advantage of dealer mistakes. The Wiz has stated before that more mistakes are made in the house's favor than the player's favor, so taking advantage of the dealer mistakes in your favor may not even put you on an even playing field. I'm not a card counter, so casinos make plenty of money off me. Allowing a dealer to pay me out on a push in BJ or forgetting to take my come bets with a seven on a come out is not going to break the bank. I would never actively cheat or steal, but I'm willing to take every advantage the casino is willing to give.

You left out:

Any player sitting at a 6:5 BJ table is making a mistake - for himself as well as for other BJ players. (The more people that will play 6:5, the more casinos will offer it rather than 3:2!)

Quote: reno

One exception: I do resent casinos for offering the Big 6/8. It just doesn't belong on a craps table but it's there as a trap with new naive craps players as the intended victims.

While I agree that the big 6/8 shouldn't even be offered, leaving it there has a useful purpose for ALL the players: It makes it easy to spot a novice!

Ive had the dealer error in my favor several times- one time the dealer really didnt seem to knoe the game at all- the worst Id ever seen.. but I always correct them or tell them about what they did. Id rather just play honest- if im not doing the best I can wiht games thats my own fault but if the dealer is just trying to go by the rules and do a good job- im not going to make thier rack short by turning a blind eye- at best its a simple oversight noone else will no- at worst the casino was watching them make mistakes and the employee is fired and im bared because it seems we were working in tandem.

Quote: Malaru

Ive had the dealer error in my favor several times- one time the dealer really didnt seem to knoe the game at all- the worst Id ever seen.. but I always correct them or tell them about what they did.

I genuinely respect your honesty and integrity. You're unwilling to exploit a new, inexperienced dealer for your own gain. And yet Nevada casinos are very willing to exploit new, inexperienced player by offering Big 6/8 in craps. Kudos to you for not stooping to their level.

I guess my question gets to be: how much arguing do we do with whoever is making the mistake, before just giving up and taking the advantage?

Quote: reno

Example 1: About 10 years ago my buddy put down a $10 bill on a craps table at Circus Circus Reno and called out "change, please". The craps table was busy, and the distracted dealer didn't look closely at the bill. The dealer gave my friend $100 in chips.

While this hasn't happened to me personally, I did see this happen at the Riverside in Laughlin. The table was incredibly busy, and person gave $20, around about the same time that a few other people were buying in for $100 each. All with the same dealer. I think because of that, the dealer pushed $100 in chips to each player, including the one who gave $20. With the stack of chips in front of him, he stated that he didn't think it was his, to which the dealer replied it was. So, he picked up the chips. I looked at him, and I knew that he hadn't bought in for that much, and I could see on his face that he knew it as well. But again, should you argue it with the dealer? If you already mentioned that it wasn't the right amount for you, and they insist it is, do you say it again? How many times? How much arguing?

My analogy is any kind of fast food, retail, whatever place, where they give me too much change. I always say something. Most of the time, they realize it, and I hand them back the overage they paid me. On the other hand, a few times, people have insisted that they gave me the right amount of change. I don't see it as a big priority for me to argue it with them and try to insist back that they overpaid me. I figure, I brought the error to their attention, and if they aren't willing (or aren't smart enough) to see that they overpaid me, then they had their chance.

At the same time, I would say that if you found out that a particular dealer would get flustered whenever busy, and that if you threw down a $20 at the same time as another person throwing down $100, and about 20% of the time you might get $100 in chips, then I'd have to say that I think you're a very dark area. Now, you're deliberately taking advantage of something. However, at the same time, when playing 3-card poker, I've been known to sit where I can see the cards coming out of the shuffler. Depending on the dealer, I might get an advantage based on seeing cards that I shouldn't.

Quote: reno

I do resent casinos for offering the Big 6/8. It just doesn't belong on a craps table but it's there as a trap with new naive craps players as the intended victims.

So I'll take the flip side on this. Me, personally, I don't like to talk to people at all about what bets they should or shouldn't be making. I just don't see it as my responsibility. However, I have seen people make bets on the Big 6/8, and have other players, and sometimes even the dealers and pit boss, mention to them that placing the 6 or 8 would yield better payoffs. Sometimes, these players move their bets, and other times, I hear them making reasons and excuses why they prefer the Big 6/8. (Everything from it's easier to reach, that they got lucky betting that one time, to they only want to bet $5 and not $6.) So, how much arguing should be done to them? Is it the same thing, where you brought it to their attention, and if they aren't going to take the good advice, just let it go?

The only time I've ever profited off of dealer error was when she forgot to take the $5 on the losing BJ hand I had.

In many stores when a cashier makes a mistake and the register comes up short, he has to pay for the missing money. Is this the case with table game dealers as well? If it is, then consider that you're profiting from someone else's misfortune.

As to a tactical mistake, such as flashing a card or hitting on hard 17, that's just business. It's like a football player scooping up a fumble and running it in for a touchdown (except Marshal, of course). You don't expect the defense to pick up the ball, hand it back to the offense and say "here, you dropped this."

Quote: Nareed

In many stores when a cashier makes a mistake and the register comes up short, he has to pay for the missing money. Is this the case with table game dealers as well? If it is, then consider that you're profiting from someone else's misfortune.

As to a tactical mistake, such as flashing a card or hitting on hard 17, that's just business. It's like a football player scooping up a fumble and running it in for a touchdown (except Marshal, of course). You don't expect the defense to pick up the ball, hand it back to the offense and say "here, you dropped this."

The only situation I've seen like this is when a guy playing craps claimed he'd placed x amount of dollars for a certain bet and the dealer accidentally put it back in the house's chip stack. He went off on the dealer and the only way to solve the problem was to take the amount of money he said he bet (he did no such thing as I watched him only put out enough for one number) out of the stack and place the bet.

Quote: Nareed

In many stores when a cashier makes a mistake and the register comes up short, he has to pay for the missing money. Is this the case with table game dealers as well? If it is, then consider that you're profiting from someone else's misfortune.

There's a difference between cashiers and dealers. The cash register keeps a tally of how much was taken in. If that tally, plus the starting bank, doesn't match the ending bank, bingo, you've got evidence of a cashier error. For that reason, I point out change errors. No such paper trail exists with dealers.

Quote: Nareed

As to a tactical mistake, such as flashing a card or hitting on hard 17, that's just business.

Remember back before they had bar code scanners? Cashiers would look at the price tag and ring it up. If the cashier made a mistake, in the customer's favor, the customer never said anything. But a mistake in the store's favor? Yikes! Either way, it wouldn't affect the cash register coming up short at the end of the day...

Quote: reno

Sometimes dealers make mistakes.

Example 1: About 10 years ago my buddy put down a $10 bill on a craps table at Circus Circus Reno and called out "change, please". The craps table was busy, and the distracted dealer didn't look closely at the bill. The dealer gave my friend $100 in chips. My buddy was astonished and speechless... but picked up his chips and proceeded to gamble with it. It was a fun night.

For those on this forum who might still be interested in the topic, I thought I would point out that there is some interest elsewhere (unless it's the same people involved there, too.) I regularly read the Question of the Day at Las Vegas Advisor. Following each answer, they post the next day's question. The question they have shown for tomorrow (4-6-10) is:

Quote: Las Vegas Advisor QOD

I recently visited a casino and put a $50 bill on the crap table, asking for chips. It was very busy, with players on either side of me playing with a lot more money. When I received my chips, I noticed I had been given $150 by mistake. I chose not to say anything, played a few rounds, and cashed out as quickly as I could without looking suspicious. Every time the phone rang or a supervisor walked by I got a bit nervous. Would the casino have been able to ask for the chips back if the "eye in the sky" noticed the error? Could I have gotten in trouble for not saying anything?

I have no idea whether the source of their QOD is someone from this forum, but perhaps tomorrow's answer would add to the discussion here. Anyone care to speculate as to what they will say?

>> Would the casino have been able to ask for the chips back if the "eye in the sky" noticed the error?
Yes.

>> Could I have gotten in trouble for not saying anything?
No.


The dealer made a mistake. As an employee, he may get in trouble for it. Is that your problem? No. However, you can also claim to have made a mistake yourself. You can claim that you thought, and still think, that the dealer paid you correctly. Can you get in trouble for it? No. You didn't break any laws - unless you refuse to pay it back.

But be sure to see the video before you pay. If you think the video is inconclusive, refuse. See what happens. They may not want the publicity of trying to recover a loss as a result of their dealer's error.

On the other hand, did you do anything to create the situation? I once saw a scene in a TV show where a person in a busy bar flashed a $100, ordered a drink, gave the bartender a $10, and almost got change for a $100. Instead he got his ass kicked.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

On the other hand, did you do anything to create the situation? I once saw a scene in a TV show where a person in a busy bar flashed a $100, ordered a drink, gave the bartender a $10, and almost got change for a $100. Instead he got his ass kicked.

Check out This Link at around 4 mins 21to see this scam in action.

If anyone is interested, here is what Las Vegas Advisor had to say today:

Quote: Las Vegas Advisor QoD

Q:
I recently visited a casino and put a $50 bill on the crap table, asking for chips. It was very busy, with players on either side of me playing with a lot more money. When I received my chips, I noticed I had been given $150 by mistake. I chose not to say anything, played a few rounds, and cashed out as quickly as I could without looking suspicious. Every time the phone rang or a supervisor walked by I got a bit nervous. Would the casino have been able to ask for the chips back if the "eye in the sky" noticed the error? Could I have gotten in trouble for not saying anything?
A:
You were right to feel nervous, because that's stealing. Chips have no intrinsic value, but they are the property of the casino and are tokens representing actual money that also belongs to the casino.

The incident you outline comes under NRS 205.0832 -- Actions which constitute theft. It's specifically clause (d) that applies in this instance:

1. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 2, a person commits theft if, without lawful authority, the person knowingly:

(d) Comes into control of lost, mislaid or misdelivered property of another person under circumstances providing means of inquiry as to the true owner and appropriates that property to his or her own use or that of another person without reasonable efforts to notify the true owner.

So, our advice is don't do it again -- you might not be so lucky next time.

I think that reply, while it might be legally accurate, is a little harsh.

There's still the burden of proof.

I still say, yeah, they can ask for it back, but you can ask to see the video.

About 15 years ago I was playing blackjack with some friends in AC and the dealer thought she had busted and started to pay us all off. One of us, perhaps the most honest ;), said that she had 20 not 22 (she did have 20). She then stopped and made it right.

Afterwards, she said that next time we should just take the money and keep quiet. She was concerned that the act of stopping and restarting the payoff process would surely be noticed upstairs and be bad for her career, whereas inadvertently paying off a few $10 bets would likely go unnoticed upstairs.

Q: "When I received my chips, I noticed I had been given $150 by mistake. I chose not to say anything...

A: "You were right to feel nervous, because that's stealing... The incident you outline comes under NRS 205.0832"


Ok, I accept the fact that this is illegal. Whether the legal code and the moral code are identical is another matter: cheating on your girlfriend is usually immoral but no one gets prosecuted for it.

Do I have a legal obligation to inform the 3 card poker dealer that he repeatedly exposed his hole card?

If the dealer will not correct his flawed dealing style, do I have a legal obligation to inform management of the dealer's incompetence?

Do I have a moral obligation to vacate the table of a dealer exposing her hole card, or is it morally preferable to continue playing without using the information to my advantage?

These questions are absurd. Meanwhile the lawyers all agree that it's legal for the casino to accept bets from a client drinking vodka, something most lawyers would advise against when money is at stake.

exposior of a hole card is a diffrent matter- your not being an accessery.

this is like compairing if a person gets in a fight with you and you push him away out into the street, and he gets hit by a car. Vs. him just walking out in front of the car and you watch him do it.

You didnt start the fight (do the exchange of $100 in chips for a $10 bill), but you got involved- you didnt come out on the worst side of the deal (out in the road = dealers short in change)- but in the end yes, you put him in the road with your involvement, even if it was not your intent to fight- you pushed him into the road to get run over. You were involved and your going to at least be partly to blaim (legal issues)

Now if your just standing there minding your own buisness and he walks right past you into the road and gets hit by a car- you witnessed it; you saw it happen (dealer flashing cards); but you were not directly involved. Your input was not required for it to happen and you have no obligation for the risk the other person is putting himself in (flashing cards).

You might be trying to compair apples to apples here - but at best its close, but not the same thing.
--------------------------------

now if your own personal morals allow you to use the information from exposed cards to your advantage, then do so. Most people would, its hard to have a large amount of money on the line and not use advantaged information like that (and would be considered by most foolish). This is more of a personal delima that deals with no intent to decieve on your part. Also you can still control your own actions at this point and continue to play the game as if you never saw the cards (moraly the better thing to do?- but admitedly much harder). You did not ask for the information and your not decieving the dealer by taking advantage of it. You had no control over the occurance which *** would most likley have happened if you had not been there.***

If you keep a stack of chips that does not equel the amount of money you put down, and you realize there was a mistake, for you to not try to correct this mistake takes on INTENT on your part. This right here is a coersive thing for you to do and instead of using an unintentional flashing of a hole card (that you made no attempt to gain) you are now taking a personally responsible (or unresponsable) action to knowingly and intently make financial gain. An action that you do have direct control over. Unlike with the flashed cards, in this case; if you were not there it ***would NOT*** have happened. You may counter with "but another player could have come up and the same thing would have happened to him", in which case this whole statement would then apply to that player and thus- if he was not there it would not have happened).

There are a lot of defenses to this.

As DJ said, the burden of proof in on the casino (or State) to prove that you stole and had the requisite intent to steal.

You could argue mistake of law. You thought that the chips became your property after you received them. Probably not the best defense, but it's worth trying.

You could argue mistake of fact, i.e. YOU didn't notice that you had gotten paid more for your chips. Again, not great but worth a shot.

Generally, I think the State wouldn't bother to prosecute many of these crimes. There are a lot of things that are illegal that they don't prosecute, for example minor cheating on your taxes, etc.

If you wrre considering the defense of even $50 in chips vs $100 given- I think the defense woudl be weak because Id imagine at that low a buy in your going to get nickles- how the heck do you not realize you got two stacks of 10 reds each or one really big stack... I coudl maybe see it if it was a diffrence of say a couple nickles or a couple $50 chips- somethign simuler but Id have to imagine that if its the typical $100 bill for nickles then your defense of oh I didnt know this huge stack of reds was incorrect for the small bill I gave the dealer.

Quote: Malaru

If you wrre considering the defense of even $50 in chips vs $100 given- I think the defense woudl be weak....

Not at all.

I *think* I gave the dealer $100. But I got $150 in chips. I guess I was wrong.

Remember, at a craps table, it's not at all uncommon for the money to be thrown in, and not get your chips until after the next roll. During that time the money was moved to the boxman, and a stack placed in the Come box so the boxman can compare them. THEN the stack is slid to you. At that point your money might already be in the drop box, so you can't even double-check yourself!

So being unsure yourself is a very viable defense.

I once bought in for $1k at the craps table & the boxman gave me an extra $100 chip by accident. the same boxman shorted me $100 once too which I got back when I asked about it 10 min later.

Also once had a dealer on roulette give me 4 x $25 chips for a $50 note.

Quote: Malaru

If you wrre considering the defense of even $50 in chips vs $100 given- I think the defense woudl be weak because Id imagine at that low a buy in your going to get nickles- how the heck do you not realize you got two stacks of 10 reds each or one really big stack...

By not paying attention. It's odd, but it happens. One time a cashier nearly gave me $20 more in change, and I dind't notice because I wasn't paying attention. She did notice as she was handing me the change, and then I woke up from whatever else I was daydreaming about. But if she hadn't noticed I woulnd't have either.

Then again if you get too many chips you may assume it's some sort of promotion. NEwbies are like that. Newbies sometimes really expect to make money at the tables, too.

I'd worry more about the casino thinking I was colluded with a dealer and barring me for life than about criminal prosecution. But then I do pay attention when changing cash for chips, and I usually play at slow times.

Quote: Nareed

I'd worry more about the casino thinking I was colluded with a dealer and barring me for life than about criminal prosecution.

I don't worry about being accused of collusion, but I do worry about the job safety of the dealer. I would hate to think that somebody got fired because they gave me the wrong change or made some kind of error. Has it been answered yet if this is a possibility for dealers? Or if there is some threshold at which they would be held responsible for mistakes, like giving an extra $20 is ok, but giving an extra $100 is firable? Or is it like a cashier where the dealer would be expected to pay up the mistake?

Quote: konceptum

I don't worry about being accused of collusion, but I do worry about the job safety of the dealer. I would hate to think that somebody got fired because they gave me the wrong change or made some kind of error. Has it been answered yet if this is a possibility for dealers? Or if there is some threshold at which they would be held responsible for mistakes, like giving an extra $20 is ok, but giving an extra $100 is firable? Or is it like a cashier where the dealer would be expected to pay up the mistake?

I have no direct knowledge, but I have to believe common sense is in play here. Dealers are working in a fast paced environment, handling chips and currency. As a business owner, I would want my dealer to be perfect 100% of the time. However, slow play means less profit for me, so I want them to be as fast as possible.
This is the old programming dilemma: You can have your program built Fast , Cheap , Defect Free. Pick any two!

So, I'm sure mistakes are factored in. They have reasonable measures in place. For you to get the wrong change, TWO employees made a mistake. The Dealer AND the box. The dealer paid too much, and the box did not watch the payout and confirm it was the right amount.
Now if a dealer has a history of bad pays, I'm sure their job would be at risk, and rightfully so. The job is to handle the chips and accurately resolve currency and bets.
I doubt the casino would even bring up collusion for a mistaken exchange, unless there was a lot of other hard evidence that you were working with the dealer. Do you personally know the dealer? Do you know them away from the casino? Have you been incorrectly paid before from this dealer?

I dont think any dealer would be fired for a single honest mistake. Repeated honest mistakes however, equate to incompetence. I guess part of the problem is all your money looks the same. This could lead to mistakes with dealers not paying attention, being distracted by other players, maybe remembering other buyins or just having an off day.

With respect to cash in and chips out, I think each dealer at every casino is rated. That is, when they take in cash more than a certain amount, they have to call over the pit to verify the amount in or the chips out. At the local casino, there seems to be a $200 level and a $500 level.

Quote: Croupier

I dont think any dealer would be fired for a single honest mistake. Repeated honest mistakes however, equate to incompetence.

I hope that is true.

I know that in the Indian casinos in Arizona, the table games dealers will take the money, spread it out, use a marking pen on it, and view it in the light to try to determine counterfeitness. But in Vegas, it seems like they don't take as much care with the money. I think it's a factor of the amount. At the Indian casinos, they get a lot of $200 players, so those $20 bills are important. Maybe in Vegas, the $20 bills are not as important as the $2,000 players and their $100 bills.

Quote: boymimbo

With respect to cash in and chips out, I think each dealer at every casino is rated. That is, when they take in cash more than a certain amount, they have to call over the pit to verify the amount in or the chips out. At the local casino, there seems to be a $200 level and a $500 level.

That's at a regular table.

At craps, where the dealer AND the boxman are involved in the transaction, it's a much higher level before the pit boss needs to look at it.

And at regular tables, when the pit boss looks at it, often it's just a glance from a distance.

Plus, it depends on how much the Pit Boss trusts the dealer. I call for a check on £200 changeovers. The pit boss doesnt even look up from his computer because s/he knows I dont make those kinds of mistakes (other mistakes hell yeah, but not cash for chips).

Mainly the reason for this is not to check the cash/chips, but to keep track of where the chips are and for player tracking.

Careful...apparently in Austrailia, there's "Theft by finding..."

http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/100000-left-stashed-inside-salvation-army-store-suitcase-20100406-roeh.html

$100,000 left stashed inside Salvation Army store suitcase
Megan Levy
April 6, 2010 - 5:59PM

Police have charged a couple with "theft by finding" after they forked out a few dollars for a second-hand suitcase at a Melbourne Salvation Army Store that had up to $100,000 hidden in its lining.

The suitcase was donated to the Salvos in Beaconsfield by a woman who did not know her husband had hidden the cash in the bag's lining.

The distraught man contacted the Salvation Army last Tuesday in a bid to retrieve the suitcase but it had already been sold, Salvation Army spokesman Major Brad Halse said.

"He said his family had cleaned out a room and donated some goods. One of the items was a suitcase with a very significant amount of money in it," Major Halse said.

"I guess sometimes people store things of value in unusual places."

He said he could not reveal the exact amount of cash, other than to say it was in the "tens of thousands of dollars".

A review of records showed the suitcase had been sold to a person using an EFTPOS card.

But privacy laws prevented the bank from passing on the purchaser's contact details, Major Halse said.

Late this afternoon, Victoria Police revealed they had charged a man, 44, and a woman, 34 and that they had recovered most of the money,which had been put in different bank accounts.

I was gambling at Harrahs last year when the blackjack dealer paid me on a "push" and when I had a 18 to his 19. I looked around to see if any others players had noticed but it seems I was the only one who noticed this. I took the chips and kept playing...oh well.

I've noticed at the casino in Dodge City that the dealers have to call out any amount of change, but have to wait for an okay from a boss if they are changing $100 or more. I've also noticed that the bosses will check some dealers much more closely than others to make sure they're giving out the right amount. At $500 or more, I think all the dealers have to wait for the boss to come over and verify.