Being happy versus having money
In addition, today, this article surfaced.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/penta-millionaires-happier-more-merely-131425909.html
When I had more money and I was less happy, I didn't have five million dollars. I had previously set my thoughts towards you need ten million dollars to be really happy.
But if half the people with 5 million dollars are happy, maybe I could set my sites a little lower.
The reason for this thread is I am curious at what point would most people feel like they had enough money to say that they are happier because they have "enough money" to be happier.
My happiness is apparently more important relative to my desire for money compared to other people. Or at least that is something that becomes a recurring subject talking about my gambling habits and/or proving that AP craps play is possible.
I'm just curious what other people think about this in general.
Quote: AhighThe reason for this thread is I am curious at what point would most people feel like they had enough money to say that they are happier because they have "enough money" to be happier.
Having enough money is never a problem.
Not having enogh money, that's always the problem.
IMHO, people who look at money as some form of barometer for happines are myopic.
Quote: MrVHaving enough money is never a problem.
Not having enogh money, that's always the problem.
IMHO, people who look at money as some form of barometer for happines are myopic.
Yeah, and the study compares $5M net worth vs. $100k net worth. $100k net worth is pretty poor. Poorer people have been shown to be significantly less happy in many studies.
Quote: Ahigh
The reason for this thread is I am curious at what point would most people feel like they had enough money to say that they are happier because they have "enough money" to be happier.
Over $1M net worth would be a start for me. But I'll likely need a job first for that...also I am terribly unhappy with life...but baby steps I guess. :-\
Quote: AndyGBI remember hearing something like $80k annually (for an individual) was the amount where you start seeing diminishing returns of happiness. It was related to being an amount where you wouldn't be scrounging day to day for living expenses, food, shelter, medical, etc. However, I don't remember the source for that information, and it seems like this would be wildly subjective... For me, to paraphrase Mr Burns, I'd gladly trade all my money in the world for just a bit more.
I heard something similar, but it was like 75K
Quote: Ahigh
My happiness is apparently more important relative to my desire for money compared to other people.
Freedom has always been tied to happiness for me. Doing
what I want when I want. For as long as I want. So being
tied to things isn't important because they take up a lot
of time. I remember a story Orson Wells told decades ago.
He had a villa in Italy and it was filled with paintings and
tapestries and art work he'd collected all his life. He only
visited there a few times a year and was obsessively worried
about it all the time. One day the whole thing burned to the
ground. He said instead of grief, he felt enormous waves
of relief wash over him. The villa was gone, the burden of
it had been lifted. He never collected anything after that.
in the teens and 20's, with no electric and no car and
tractor. They had only the things left down from generations
ago. They did everything for themselves. He swears they
were very happy. No radio, no movies, just the big family.
He used to watch the Waltons and said they would have
been considered rich when he was a kid. Nobody he
knew lived like that.
The lack of happiness stems from problems, be it financials, hunger, health, etc. When our "first world problems" are resolved, other ones come along, and it's truly a function of who we are as a person.
Money resolves some basic issues such as food, shelter, and transportation. And certainly the opposite sex is generally attracted to someone with a career and shows financial stability. So, there is a critical point where the basics are resolved with money. Of course, what that critical point is depends on your own standards.
For me, there was a specific income level that I wanted to hit by a certain age to be "happy". I hit that goal. I have no desire to push myself into a position where I earn more income. I'm very happy with what I do for a living and really don't have a desire to work harder to get higher up in the organization, unless I enjoy it. My job has changed appreciably enough over the years that I've become a leader in my particular niche in my organization and I like that.
Quote: Gabes22I heard something similar, but it was like 75K
Is this 75k or 80 after all expenses paid? I know plenty of people who earn 75k or 80k but between their student loans, mortgages, kids, etc., they are under a mountain of debt.
Quote: aceofspadesIs this 75k or 80 after all expenses paid? I know plenty of people who earn 75k or 80k but between their student loans, mortgages, kids, etc., they are under a mountain of debt.
The way I remember this it was before expenses. As in, that figure should be enough for you to meet your basic needs and have enough left over where you're able to have some discretionary income, savings, retirement etc as well. Without having so much more, is the premise, that you then have more trouble/worry/regret/unfulfilled wants. Like that villa full of art. But the way I heard it was definitely for a single person without family expenses. So you're probably supposed to be doubling or adding x% again on top if you have a spouse and kids.
found when the initial thrill of winning had wore
off, usually a year later, the level of happiness
in the winners was exactly what it was before
they won. The money made no difference.
A Vanderbilt once said: The difference between
unhappy rich people and unhappy poor people
is the poor people think money will help. The
rich know better.
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/50-000-happiness-tipping-point-poll-says-182514377.html
Quote: AhighI think this is the reference many are remembering from last year.
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/50-000-happiness-tipping-point-poll-says-182514377.html
This fits exactly with the lottery winners study. All
the excess money didn't make them any happier.
One set of problems is replaced with another set
of problems.
115 k would be the number to make me happier. 70 k for my oldest sons student loans and 45 k for my youngest son. God... only knows what I was doing instead of saving for my kids college.Quote: aceofspadesIs this 75k or 80 after all expenses paid? I know plenty of people who earn 75k or 80k but between their student loans, mortgages, kids, etc., they are under a mountain of debt.
Quote: tringlomane$100k net worth is pretty poor.
No, it isn't, at least not in this day and age of imploded real estate values and recession.
At one point Ahigh made a $10 come bet, some point was rolled, I think a 4 or 10, and he didn't back it up with an odds bet. I questioned him why not, if he believes he his probability of rolling a seven is less than 1/6. My apologies in advance if I misquote him, but his answer was that:
1. He doesn't proclaim to have an advantage under casino conditions, just on the table in his house.
2. He was having a hard time hitting the point thrown that particular session.
3. He doesn't play to maximize his odds but to maximize happiness.
To point number 3 I replied that winning as much as possible, or losing as little as possible, should be the goal of any game, and ultimately lead to happiness. Ahigh disagreed, and says he is more about playing at a fun table, where players encourage each other and have a good time.
I might also add that I admonished Ahigh for not keeping records of this casino throws, and also for wasting time testing for the fairness of the dice. He was tracking how often each number on each die was thrown, using six stacks of chips.
Finally, I would like to say that I found Ahigh to be a very nice person, and he was very receptive to all my suggestions. I can definitely see how he would be a fun person to shoot dice with. He also gave me permission to quote whatever I liked from our meeting, which was big of him, because he knows I'm critical of what I saw.
Again, this is my version of our chance encounter. I welcome Ahigh to make any corrections and defend himself. He is also welcome to quote anything I said and any other observations.
Of course, there is a cost, i.e. the HA.
Which leads me to ask: what other activities or venues can offer the equivalent ability to "connect" with others, but without any risk of loss?
A couple that come to mind: volunteer work (e.g. slinging hash at a soup kitchen) and church social activities.
Loneliness : an unavoidable aspect of our humanity.
Quote: Wizard3. He doesn't play to maximize his odds but to maximize happiness.
If maximum happiness for Ahigh is playing longer at the craps table with the money he has, and also believes he only throws randomly at the casino, then not making the odds bet is correct for him because it will keep variance lower with the same average return per hour. But given Ahigh's lengthy threads over dice control, I would be surprised if he believes he is truly a random thrower at the casino. So normally he should be making the odds bet if he thinks he can avoid 7s.
Quote: WizardAhigh disagreed, and says he is more about playing at a fun table, where players encourage each other and have a good time.
.
Thats called ploppie gambling, where you get a table
full of recreational players who are there to socialize,
not play. If this is what Ahigh wants, why is he even
bothering with dice influencing. That has nothing to
do with what he says he wants.
Quote: MrVA craps table can be a good place to "connect" with people, often in an upbeat manner.
Of course, there is a cost, i.e. the HA.
Which leads me to ask: what other activities or venues can offer the equivalent ability to "connect" with others, but without any risk of loss?
A couple that come to mind: volunteer work (e.g. slinging hash at a soup kitchen) and church social activities.
Loneliness : an unavoidable aspect of our humanity.
Your examples also have a HA. Your time to start with, but volunteer work also involves getting to and from (at your own expense) the soup kitchen. The church social activities imply that you likely also belong to the church. The cost of being an active church member and paying your share of church expenses can be considerable.
I am not implying that these are not worthwhile endeavors just that they also have a cost involved. It also quite likely that they would provide a deeper satisfaction than a craps table for many people.
Quote: WizardI suspect what may have caused the question of the OP to be raised was a chance meeting of Ahigh and myself on Monday night. Ahigh happened to spot me as I asked the dealers at the M what odds they allow (3-4-5X). So, I watched him play for about five minutes and then we had a chat in the deli.
At one point Ahigh made a $10 come bet, some point was rolled, I think a 4 or 10, and he didn't back it up with an odds bet. I questioned him why not, if he believes he his probability of rolling a seven is less than 1/6. My apologies in advance if I misquote him, but his answer was that:
1. He doesn't proclaim to have an advantage under casino conditions, just on the table in his house.
2. He was having a hard time hitting the point thrown that particular session.
3. He doesn't play to maximize his odds but to maximize happiness.
To point number 3 I replied that winning as much as possible, or losing as little as possible, should be the goal of any game, and ultimately lead to happiness. Ahigh disagreed, and says he is more about playing at a fun table, where players encourage each other and have a good time.
I might also add that I admonished Ahigh for not keeping records of this casino throws, and also for wasting time testing for the fairness of the dice. He was tracking how often each number on each die was thrown, using six stacks of chips.
Finally, I would like to say that I found Ahigh to be a very nice person, and he was very receptive to all my suggestions. I can definitely see how he would be a fun person to shoot dice with. He also gave me permission to quote whatever I liked from our meeting, which was big of him, because he knows I'm critical of what I saw.
Again, this is my version of our chance encounter. I welcome Ahigh to make any corrections and defend himself. He is also welcome to quote anything I said and any other observations.
If someone were able to come up with the odds that our meeting was random versus something that I orchestrated, and those true odds were 1,000,000:1 or higher, would you lay odds that the meeting was not random, but contrived by me assuming it were possible to determine your question, "what are the odds?"
I could let you bet against another neutral party, disclose the answer to an unbiased person without knowing which side either of the betting parties are taking, and after the true odds were established, one of you would win or lose a million dollars or more to the other persons single dollar(s). It would be a free bet between you and another neutral party. Would you take it? Why or why not? Which side would you bet on (just curious) if you were to take it and how much would you be willing to bet?
If you stood to win $100,000,000, would you make a $100 bet if someone was willing to take the wager with you without knowing the outcome? Would you take the other side?
In effect, your recommendation to take odds on a ten point for as much as you can afford is a less extreme version of you should bet $100 on the chance to win $100,000,000!!!
But as soon as you start thinking, "I think as remote of a chance as that was, it was just random" then you start to wonder if I planned the whole thing and someone else who thinks "what are the freaking odds? I can use $100!!! That Ahigh guy!!! No WAY that was random! YOU GOT A BET!!!"
I have done things with almost NO PAYOFF AT ALL where I would have easily have been killed, or even worse because I enjoyed the RISK involved in feeling confident that I could get even just an adrenaline rush out of the experience. And I like that stuff. There are other people too who will risk TONS of money just to make a buck over and over and over feeling that the odds are on their side and they SURELY will not lose. But just having a zero edge doesn't mean you want to be the sucker to give away $100 for a remote chance at a windfall.
Quote: Gabes22When you reach a specific threshold those returns of happiness diminish and a whole new set of problems arise, such as being a target because of the money you possess.
Yes. Unfortunately, a few years after my father died, my mom was worth slightly more than $5M. Then, without my knowledge or consent (I was handling her affairs, but did not yet have power of attorney or put a "credit freeze" on her account, she was tricked by a "friend" into cosigning for a $1.8M commercial loan at 8%. The scumbag defaulted within months and declared bankruptcy. I did my best to stop the damage, but it ended up costing us almost $1M and about another $250k in legal fees. Compounding the problems, many other forced sales can from stocks that my father had purchased years before, so she incurred tremendous capital gains tax hits and many of the sales occurred at the worst possible time 2008-2009, the height of the financial crisis. and However, the damage that it did to my mother has been irreparable. She lost faith in people, felt incredibly dumb, used, and was even suicidal for a bit. She went from being a pretty fit, 60 year old, to a frail, lost old woman in roughly five years.
To me, it was also incredibly stressful, sad, and infuriating. I often pondered how furious and disappointed my father would have been. How I could have prevented it with a $10 credit freeze or power of attorney? How he could have spent his life hanging out with us, rather than busting his ass to make every penny possible, so that we could be supported in his absence. And on and on and on. He still appears in nightmares scolding me every few months.
The sad irony is that my mom lives on about $40k per year and never would have touched the principal. Anything above the approximately $1.5M that would have made me comfortable that she could maintain her lifestyle and seek quality long term care, if needed, has only brought pain to us all.
Quote: deedubbsYes. Unfortunately, a few years after my father died, my mom was worth slightly more than $5M. Then, without my knowledge or consent (I was handling her affairs,
A few YEARS after he died? So the point of your story
is you all wandered around in a fog, waiting to be flim
flamed, and after you were, you all now feel real bad
about it. The world is full of people waiting to take what
you have. You just learned a big lesson the hard way.
Or did you..
I'm sorry, but I hear stories like this and I think about
people who wear $12K Rolex watches and then are
puzzled when somebody steals it off their wrist. If you
have something of value, always assume its about a
day and a half away from being stolen..
Quote: EvenBobIf you
have something of value, always assume its about a
day and a half away from being stolen..
Ah Bob, always the optimist.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyAh Bob, always the optimist.
It gives you a day and a half head start. Not bad..
I owned a bar, people came in a couple times a
week selling stuff they had just stolen. Nice stuff,
expensive stuff. I was never interested. Much..
There is really no need for me to defend myself against such ridiculous and baseless ad hominem attacks.
It was right around 2 years. The estate consisted of 23 properties, a commercial storefront, a small retail business, and a major stake in an LLC. We were admittedly overwhelmed, but hardly in a fog. My mother had handled the accounting for over 20 years, worked in a real estate office, was in fine health, and seemed competent. Some of our assets were in a Family Limited Partnership, which we set up after my father's death and we were in the process of setting up a Revocable trust. She had consolidated my father's IRA's (they were joint tenants with sole right of survivorship) and were in the process of establishing one stretch IRA. I completed a tax-free rollover exchange of property (1034), disposed of the three lowest yielding properties, liquidated the business inventory on eBay, and consolidated all of the taxable accounts into an ETFs and at online broker, saving over $40k/year in management fees. All the while, tracking expenses to make sure I'd know what was needed to preserve/improve my mom's quality of life. During this time, she developed breast cancer, which was caught early and nearly died when an UTI spread into her blood stream and left her in the ICU for several days with failing kidneys.
Yes, I am a moron. I was in a fog.
Thankfully, however, I did just learn something... Never underestimate the stupidity and malice of the people on the internet.
I wish you all of the best, EvenBob... because I suspect that your other 9,833 posts are coming from a very dark and sad place.
Thank you for sharing your story. It took a lot to share that and I appreciate it. I have my own story too that sort of mirrors yours, but to make a long story short, if you are smart and you have a lot of money, your friends have absolutely no clue that you do!
Quote: deedubbs
Yes, I am a moron. I was in a fog.
Thankfully, however, I did just learn something... Never underestimate the stupidity and malice of the people on the internet.
You just learned that? I got my first computer in 92 and
learned that in the first month. Thats what I do, thru
my opinins I teach people about the real world. No malice,
thats just wishful thinking on your part.
The best stories I've seen personally is families fighing
over a parents or grandparents estate. The best one
was while eveybody was at the funeral of granny, my
friends sister was at grannys house with a Uhaul loading
up the old ladies valuable collections of pottery and dolls.
That one took years to settle in court and by that time
all the good stuff had been sold.
There's is always somebody waiting to steal what you
have or what you have coming. Always.
Quote: deedubbsThankfully, however, I did just learn something... Never underestimate the stupidity and malice of the people on the internet.
Or in a casino...or anywhere at all. If we don't know someone, he could be anyone evil. Very true.
Quote: deedubbsYes. Unfortunately, a few years after my father died, my mom was worth slightly more than $5M. Then, without my knowledge or consent (I was handling her affairs, but did not yet have power of attorney or put a "credit freeze" on her account, she was tricked by a "friend" into cosigning for a $1.8M commercial loan at 8%. The scumbag defaulted within months and declared bankruptcy. I did my best to stop the damage, but it ended up costing us almost $1M and about another $250k in legal fees. Compounding the problems, many other forced sales can from stocks that my father had purchased years before, so she incurred tremendous capital gains tax hits and many of the sales occurred at the worst possible time 2008-2009, the height of the financial crisis. and However, the damage that it did to my mother has been irreparable. She lost faith in people, felt incredibly dumb, used, and was even suicidal for a bit. She went from being a pretty fit, 60 year old, to a frail, lost old woman in roughly five years.
To me, it was also incredibly stressful, sad, and infuriating. I often pondered how furious and disappointed my father would have been. How I could have prevented it with a $10 credit freeze or power of attorney? How he could have spent his life hanging out with us, rather than busting his ass to make every penny possible, so that we could be supported in his absence. And on and on and on. He still appears in nightmares scolding me every few months.
The sad irony is that my mom lives on about $40k per year and never would have touched the principal. Anything above the approximately $1.5M that would have made me comfortable that she could maintain her lifestyle and seek quality long term care, if needed, has only brought pain to us all.
What a horrific story...I hope it serves as a cautionary tale for all of us.
Debt and reckless spending or gambling beyond your comfort zone bet amounts is also a nightmare to deal with and can cause great stress.
But I think there are many people who do not understand the stress that large amounts of money can cause on what would otherwise be a happy and normal life if it were not how OTHER people who WANT the money act around people that are known to have it.
I am happier today than I have ever been before. It was only when I was flush with lots of cash that I realized that I wanted to pursue the game of craps, and I have accomplish most of my goals in that regards to this date.
I am happier having accomplished my goals in pursuit of the game of craps than I was sitting with a huge stash of cash with everyone I worked with wondering why I was still working with all the money I had at that time.
Back then I enjoyed working, and I continued to work, but EVERYONE put WAY TOO MUCH STRESS ON ME, including my wife (now X-wife) my employer (now former employer, and specifically I won't name my employer at that time or the CEO of that company, but I will say that the company and CEO are synonymous with the success of a game known as WOW and I was their most senior engineer at the time).
Now that I am here in Vegas where I decided I wanted to be at that time, I am much happier. And it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with me wanting to be happy doing what I want to do, which is generally to play the game of craps and become a well known expert at the game.
And it has NOTHING to do with financial success. Any lucky fool can obtain that, and MANY HAVE!
I am neither LUCKY nor a FOOL. Just ask dealers at the Silverton how my luck goes when I bet HUGE on RANDOM SHOOTERS, which I do periodically.
I DO NOT HAVE LUCK AT THE TABLES. I NEVER HAVE!!! ASK ANYBODY WHO HAS WATCHED ME BET HUGE ON RANDOM SHOOTERS.
HARLEY HAS SEEN IT. DEALERS AT THE SILVERTON HAVE SEEN IT. MANY HAVE.
But I still come back and I am still here.
And let me tell you: I AM HAPPY!!!
