Why beating in 21 Vegas movie for counting?
I don't understand what's with all the beating in the casinos because of the card counting.
1. It's legal, but I understand they can ban you from the casino.
2. Even if it was illegal, there are laws and stuff like that, can the casino security just beat gamblers if they find what they're doing is illegal?? Probably no.
So is it based on somehow reality or just a typical stupid movie twist? =)
Also, how did they manage to make money EVERY time they played, by just counting cards? That's like giving them too much of a HE advantage, no?
Quote: dwheatleyAre you talking about the movie "21"? That movie is dumb.
I think he is and I agree Terrible movie.
Yeah, prior to corporate buyouts when the Mob ran Las Vegas, certain "transgressors" could expect a variety of punishments for breaking the rules inside a casino. A trip to the desert was rare, but not unknown. A trip to the backroom was more likely and if it was thought that "sending a message" was important they would be sure that you and people who knew you got the message. Usually it was just a beating not any sort of maiming, but the message would be effective.
First time I treked to Las Vegas the papers were full of headlines about heat waves. Papers were also carrying items about various blackjack dealers and blackjack floormen who were going out into the desert at night and seeking relief from the heat by climbing into holes and covering themselves with sand. After a short period of time, it seems blackjack dealers on the swing shift stopped using these chip sleeves of a stack of low value but slightly oversized chips that had a hollowed-out core that could be filled with a stack of high value chips that would pass muster on the surveillance monitor.
In the days of the Mob, anyone using such a sleeve wouldn't have had to have taken a trip to the desert, except maybe to watch his arm being buried there.
The MIT team, which were Asians, went to Connecticut to practice prior to their first trip to Vegas... and they lost their shirts! Lady Variance did not smile favorably upon the MIT hotshots. Only Hollywood did.
Quote: rainmanI think he is and I agree Terrible movie.
Whadaya mean terrible. Every script writer knows ... card counting means you memorize each card that is dealt, you get beat up in the backroom in front of a beautiful broad who is worried about what she is going to be getting.
Those scripts sell. Those movies make money.
Now this was all before my time, so I am speculating and going on what others have related to me. But what I do know for fact is that it is not like that today. While even today, there are a few holdovers in personnel from that era, it is an entirely different corporate mentality. The player has recourse with attorney's such as Bob Nersesian and the court system, which have handed down a number of large judgements against the industry for this type of behavior in the last 15 years. As a result it has almost ceased. I have been backed off 2 dozen times total in my few years of living and playing in Vegas and all but one were just a verbal, "no more blackjack". Most are even very polite, often complimenting your play with something like "you are too good, no more blackjack", or your play is too strong, no more blackjack". The one incident where a suit and security dude were attempting to take me to a backroom, I simply stated that I wanted to call my attorney and through out the name of Mr Nersesian, whom, I did not know at that time, and the guy in the suit stopped mid stride, looked at me and said, "go on, get out of here". It's just a different mentality now. For the most part, these folks know they have to answer for their actions if they cross the line.
Quote: kewljIt is my understanding from some of the interviews of key members and players, that while there were many inaccuracies, as tends to happen when Hollywood gets involved, that a lot of the story was based on truth. You have to remember that the time period for the movie "21" was 20 years ago, in the early 1990's. Vegas was still transitioning from the mob controlled places depicted in the movie "Casino", to the Corporate controlled environment of today. I think some of that mob mentality and personnel remained in place.
Now this was all before my time, so I am speculating and going on what others have related to me. But what I do know for fact is that it is not like that today. While even today, there are a few holdovers in personnel from that era, it is an entirely different corporate mentality. The player has recourse with attorney's such as Bob Nersesian and the court system, which have handed down a number of large judgements against the industry for this type of behavior in the last 15 years. As a result it has almost ceased. I have been backed off 2 dozen times total in my few years of living and playing in Vegas and all but one were just a verbal, "no more blackjack". Most are even very polite, often complimenting your play with something like "you are too good, no more blackjack", or your play is too strong, no more blackjack". The one incident where a suit and security dude were attempting to take me to a backroom, I simply stated that I wanted to call my attorney and through out the name of Mr Nersesian, whom, I did not know at that time, and the guy in the suit stopped mid stride, looked at me and said, "go on, get out of here". It's just a different mentality now. For the most part, these folks know they have to answer for their actions if they cross the line.
Hey, great story!
Well, what would happen if they would manage to take you the backroom? I can't see ANY justified reason BY LAW when someone can beat someone else..
Also, the casino can just restrict you from playing any game they want, without any explanation whatsoever?
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd yes, they can restrict anyone, for any reason they want, at any game without any reason why.
My mother was personally barred from the Golden Nugget by Steve Wynn. Yes, that makes me a second generation AP.
Hollywood's version of casino back rooms is more interesting than the real thing.
Yeah, the MIT team was some time ago and there were some changes perhaps yet to be made but it was detection not punishment that was feared. The team wanted to keep playing. Backrooming meant an end to the gravy train.
Quote: FleaStiffAn honor, I'm sure.
The only place that still has her barred is the Flamingo. Wanting to outlast the current ownership, or the building itself, is what keeps her going :)
Quote: rainmanThat whole movie is fiction. The only thing that the real story and the movie have in common is the fact there was an MIT blackjack team. see here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QflVqavHHM0
Just watched it all now. Great movie! =)
Quote: FleaStiffAn honor, I'm sure.
Hollywood's version of casino back rooms is more interesting than the real thing.
.
I was only in the back room once, at Circus Circus. I've
told the story here. It was just a very small room thats
supposed to intimidate you. It does.
Quote: EvenBobI was only in the back room once, at Circus Circus. I've
told the story here. It was just a very small room thats
supposed to intimidate you. It does.
Does the link still exist? Was it inside a wire cage, under the Big Top, with some guy zooming around you on a motorcycle?
Quote: kewljThe one incident where a suit and security dude were attempting to take me to a backroom, I simply stated that I wanted to call my attorney and through out the name of Mr Nersesian, whom, I did not know at that time, and the guy in the suit stopped mid stride, looked at me and said, "go on, get out of here". It's just a different mentality now. For the most part, these folks know they have to answer for their actions if they cross the line.
as an advantage player, you should have let them. the prospective lawsuit/settlement probably would have dwarfed your BJ earnings for the year.
Quote: GHDoes the link still exist? Was it inside a wire cage, ?
It off the casino floor in the part where only
employees are allowed. It was a room about
8x8 with no windows and a table in the middle
and 4 old beat metal fold up chairs.
I tend to admire realism in all details: dialog, background advertisements, prices of merchandise, manner of display, automobiles, architecture, clothing styles, etc. Some of Hollywood's films are worse than others. In general, I agree with you: it was a film for entertainment, not a documentary that pretends to have historical accuracy and an unbiased viewpoint.Quote: LonesomeGamblerIt may not be historically accurate or realistic, but who cares?
Its just that sometimes we get tired of all the nonsense and do indeed long for that which at least tends to approach reality.
Quote: EvenBobI was only in the back room once, at Circus Circus. I've
told the story here. It was just a very small room thats
supposed to intimidate you. It does.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/10804-anyone-been-kicked-out-of-casino/2/#post168985
For those who didn't read it back in April.
Quote: miplethttps://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/10804-anyone-been-kicked-out-of-casino/2/#post168985
For those who didn't read it back in April.
There ya go. He kept asking us if thats the story
we wanted to go with, if it was true, over and
over and over. The fact we were guests of the
hotel fazed him not. And it took forever to get
the 50 bucks, I think he was hoping we'd just
leave.
Quote: whatever61Well, what would happen if they would manage to take you the backroom?
PaigowDan is back there with a circular saw.
I did a little counting many years ago and I seem to recall being ecstatic if the count went to +10 and stayed there for a few hands.
Are such high positive counts that common?
Quote: LonesomeGamblerWhy does everyone always insist that 21 was a bad movie? It was pretty straightforward Hollywood fare, but it dealt with an interesting subject and was generally a creative, well-made, and entertaining film. It may not be historically accurate or realistic, but who cares?
I enjoyed the movie. Was it factually correct? I have no idea, I wasn't there. I was in grade school in the early 90's. lol I did spot a couple things related to counting that were wrong, plus a couple other things not related to counting that were wrong. The kind of things you notice when you watch a movie a number of times, like the guy blowing the trumpet to start the chariot race in the Ben Hur movie, wearing a wristwatch. But as I said, overall, I enjoyed it.
Now I was in my 4th or 5th year of supporting myself from card counting when the movie came out. I was just beginning to move up in stakes from red chip and staring to make a few bucks above the poverty level and grow my very meager bankroll just a bit. I was scared to death that the release of this movie was going to be the end of card counting opportunities as the casino's would tighten up. That never happened of course. Later I learned the period just after the movie and books came out, were some of the best for the industry as far as blackjack as everyone and their mother, apparently showed up and lost their shirts, not to mention the few hundred bucks of severely underfunded bankroll they had. These folks had just enough knowledge to do themselves some real harm. So, I guess the casino industry rather enjoyed the movie as well. :)
made. The people on the actual team say the movie
is mostly fiction. Duh..
at the casino said: "I am sorry, Mr.-----, but you must stop playing. You can play any other game here other
than blackjack." Now, I have lived in Vegas for many years and no longer play blackjack, but I wonder: For
the sake of other players, to what extent should card counting be disguised?
I was fortunate. I don't believe I ended up in (at that time) in a Morris Detective agency book listing known
card counters along with their pictures, that many, if not all, casinos used.
"Every people have Gods to suit their circumstances."
-Henry David Thoreau
Quote: BuzzardIt's worse than that. They tied me to a chair and for hours Dan lectured me about the evils of counting. I was praying someone would just shoot me !
I wouldn't have done that, tied you to a chair and lecture you and all that. That would have been "pearls before..."
I would have just forwarded your picture into the black book, and to some dating sites....
Quote: Paigowdan... I would have just forwarded your picture into the black book, and to some dating sites....
Where is a convenient place to get carbon dating performed, anyway? Is that relevant to Buzzard?
Quote: DocWhere is a convenient place to get carbon dating performed, anyway? Is that relevant to Buzzard?
This from a man who has chips he personally collected as a player from casinos that went out of business in the late 1890's.
DOC = Department of Corrections
them in cash sensitive positions. Mormons were considered to be very honest and trustworthy.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
-Henry David Thoreau
Quote: GHIt may be a terribly inaccurate movie, but it's a great aphrodisiac to show women, that don't know anything about casinos; after you tell them "you play Blackjack."
Is this what you do to get "action" outside of the casino?
Rude and annoying backoffs or more polite and subtle reactions by suits can take place in response to card counting practices of today but its just not going to be some sort of rough stuff. Today, the risk is just about the same risk you take with any Rent A Cop security guard in any sort of business.
I don't know if things will change. The great stampede to find non-gambling revenue has lead to blind-drunk nightclubbers infesting properties as well as money-grubbing tip devouring behavior amongst the self proclaimed Beautiful People. This Buy a Bottle and Grease a Palm behavior must not spread from Ultra Clubs to the Casino Floor as the party types migrate from the Ultra Clubs to the Casinos. Something will have to give. The Gaming Board already fined The Palms for allowing a whorehouse attitude to prevail. I'm sure there will be similar fines if some former club manager tries to sustain Club Values on the Casino Floor or in the back room. We may have to deal with a crop of young managers whose experience is in night clubs rather than gambling... things may get interesting in the future.
Quote: timbo123There was a time, many years ago, in the Mafia era, when Las Vegas casinos went out of their way to hire Mormons and put
them in cash sensitive positions. Mormons were considered to be very honest and trustworthy.
Same with the CIA!
Quote: timbo123There was a time, many years ago, in the Mafia era, when Las Vegas casinos went out of their way to hire Mormons and put
them in cash sensitive positions. Mormons were considered to be very honest and trustworthy.
They still do... Donny & Marie.
Quote: PatrickKieferQuote: timbo123There was a time, many years ago, in the Mafia era, when Las Vegas casinos went out of their way to hire Mormons and put
them in cash sensitive positions. Mormons were considered to be very honest and trustworthy.
Same with the CIA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-CG5w4YwOI
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyIs this what you do to get "action" outside of the casino?
Retired with no more rugrats, hell yeah, I'm getting my social hustle on :)
Quote: whatever61So I just watched again the movie 21 Vegas.
I don't understand what's with all the beating in the casinos because of the card counting.
1. It's legal, but I understand they can ban you from the casino.
2. Even if it was illegal, there are laws and stuff like that, can the casino security just beat gamblers if they find what they're doing is illegal?? Probably no.
So is it based on somehow reality or just a typical stupid movie twist? =)
Also, how did they manage to make money EVERY time they played, by just counting cards? That's like giving them too much of a HE advantage, no?
It's a movie, the casino's can't get away with beating someone anymore.
Quote: montyaceUnless you gamble in Istanbul turkey or Bucharest Romania where they are still hoodlum controlled... Where they will smash your fingers or your legs if they catch you cheating... q]
I just want to say that I never considered card counting to be cheating... I considered it to be my job to counter it and if I couldn’t then a ban is usually enough... Modern surveillance systems can tell you very quickly if someone is counting cards and alert the pit with plenty of time to stop them playing ... but I have seen casino owners hurt badly those people found to be cheating...A Riddle Wrapped In A Mystery Inside An Enigma
