Holiday decorations in public places

As thanksgiving has passed unfortunately holiday decorations will come up if they have not already. I do not have a problem with private homes decorating, or businesses engaging in a holiday theme (as they are privately owned and I do not have to go to them) but what drives me crazy is when I see banners with christmas stuff on them or christmas tree lighting in public parks. Nativity scenes are probably not around too much anymore due to complaints from people like me, but I hope this year the religious people will keep their stuff on their house and out of public property. Jesus was not even born on Dec 25, it was just created to steal the Pagan Light Holiday. Anyway that is my rant.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

As thanksgiving has passed unfortunately holiday decorations will come up if they have not already. I do not have a problem with private homes decorating, or businesses engaging in a holiday theme (as they are privately owned and I do not have to go to them) but what drives me crazy is when I see banners with christmas stuff on them or christmas tree lighting in public parks. Nativity scenes are probably not around too much anymore due to complaints from people like me, but I hope this year the religious people will keep their stuff on their house and out of public property. Jesus was not even born on Dec 25, it was just created to steal the Pagan Light Holiday. Anyway that is my rant.

You need to face the fact that the USA was founded as a Christian Nation and that is what the majority prefers. I will give you $500.00 if you find for me the phrase "seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Look at any number of old (even newer) doccuments and you will see them dated "November 25 in the year of our Lord 2011."

I don't like Haloween Decorations but I realize that so many people do that it is what it is.

BTW: it appears "Atheism" is your religion (as being opposed to agnostic) so by demanding it not be in parks you are thus wanting to impose your religion on others.

Just a return rant. We now return you to your regularly scheduled blogging......................

Well I can see your point but what I mean is : Unlike others I will not take legal action I just dont care, I will just be bitter inside. Yes I do understand this is a christian nation which is fine, I just dislike it when people say Merry Christmas, or God Bless You etc... I say "Happy end of the year holiday season" (seriously). It is hard though to knock someone who says something with good intentions so I just say thank you and squirm inside.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Well I can see your point but what I mean is : Unlike others I will not take legal action I just dont care, I will just be bitter inside.

Why? Do you get something out of your bitterness?

I sometimes drive past some buildings belonging to the military (offices, a bank, housing, things like that) on my way home. They decorate their facades and the median for Independence Day in September, Halloween in october and Xmas in December. I've no particualr feelings for any of those holidays, but the decorations are very nice. In Christmas they even put on lights on the tree canopies on both sides of the road, so it's like driving throuhg a tunnel amde of light. it brightens things up, both literally and figuratively. Sure, the inflatable Santas are campy and creepy, but otherwise it's very pelasant.

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Yes I do understand this is a christian nation which is fine,

Actually it isn't a Christian nation. I don't think there's any such thing anywhere on Earth, except perhaps the Vatican (if you can regard it as a real country). I've yet to see the words "Christian Nation" anywhere on the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution...

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I just dislike it when people say Merry Christmas, or God Bless You etc...

You know, I minded that a lot more when I was still kind of practicing Judaism (I was, what, 15 at the time or so). Since then, not so much. after all, there's nothing wrong with people wishing me well, regardless of the reason. It's just a general, formulaic even, good wish, carrying a little religious coloring. It's a kind gesture, and not much more than that. You should take it in the spirit it is offered.

I do have gentile friends and acquaintances, too, and will wish them "Feliz Navidad" just the same. It's polite to do so, even if they sometimes stick me with any work that needs doing on Dec. 24th <sigh>

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I say "Happy end of the year holiday season" (seriously).

You should try not to. It just annoys the goyim but otherwise serves no purpose. If you can't bring yourself to say "Christmas," then say "Happy Holidays." save the annoyance and the other ammunition for when it will do any good.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Well I can see your point but what I mean is : Unlike others I will not take legal action I just dont care, I will just be bitter inside. Yes I do understand this is a christian nation which is fine, I just dislike it when people say Merry Christmas, or God Bless You etc... I say "Happy end of the year holiday season" (seriously). It is hard though to knock someone who says something with good intentions so I just say thank you and squirm inside.

Life is too short to go around bitter inside. You may dislike this statement but I say "Merry Christmas" and not "Happy Holidays" because Christmas *is* the holiday. Christmas is a legal holdiday. Nothing else is, unless you want to throw in New Years which I haven't cared about since I was a child and getting to stay up until midnight was a big deal. I've been to Chaunaka parties a few times. (Once on the "9th night"---the hostess was not the sharpest nail.) Had fun, good people, good time. Offended if a Jewish Person wishes me a "Happy Chaunaka?" Why?

Kwanza I think is stupid but would offer a polite "thanks" if given a well-wish. Ramadan crawls to different times in the year not just December, but same thing.

The "squirm inside" is where I have a problem with many atheists. Atheism is about the least tolerant religion there is, evel less than Islam which is very intolerant. I know one who got upset when I said, "The expense of boats is God's way of telling us he really doen't want us on the water." You would think that would be harmless but she said, "Please don't use THAT WORD." (emphasis mostly hers.) "That word?" Can't even say "God?"

I just was taught the difference this week. Only partly knew:


Atheist: states flat out that there is no God. This makes it a "religion" in that it is their belief. Usually active in promoting this, leading to incorrect reading of the Constitution since the 1960s.

Agnostic: Neither believes in a God nor denies existance of one. Usually people in hard science seem to drift this direction. More or less ignore everyone, everywhere when it comes to religion but will be respectful to them if asked to say attend a Baptism or Wedding.

Dietist: Believes there is a God who created the Universe, but is not involved in our day to day lives at all. Kind of as if you would build an ant farm and then sat back watching the ants, doing nothing. To me a little easier to reconcile than the first two for the simple question "what was here 1 minute BEFORE the "Big Bang?" Or less sarcastic if you cannot create or destroy matter how did anything come to be?

Jewish/Christian: Just what you would think, any of 10+ denominations of belief going back to The Ten Commandments, which are a basis for law in Western Countries. Splits came when someone was going too far, or not far enough, off the course for part of the group.

I avoid the whole issue by wishing everyone, "A joyous Festivus for all of us."

Of course, that's just for people I know / am friendly with.

I'm currently writing out my holiday cards for my business. The note I am writing is, "Best wishes to you and your staff for a great new year and a happy holiday." By putting the new year before the holiday throws people off but gets both in there.

Quote: AZDuffman

You need to face the fact that the USA was founded as a Christian Nation and that is what the majority prefers. I will give you $500.00 if you find for me the phrase "seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Look at any number of old (even newer) doccuments and you will see them dated "November 25 in the year of our Lord 2011."

You are right. The First Amendment states :: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Various intepretations have been offered on the "separation of church and state" on that amendment (dating back to Jefferson's time). The separation was really to avoid the state defining Christian practice (something the British government had been good at doing for the last 200 years), rather than keeping the state to be irreligious/agnostic/atheist.

Of course the US was founded as a Christian Nation. Most Western Europeans were Christian at the time. That doesn't mean it can't change (or stay the same... which ever you so shall decide). Havng been something doesn't mean it should always be so. Several of the founding fathers were Deists as far as I can tell. I don't expect to see a non-Judeo-Christian in the White House for about forty years, though. Or at least not one whose "out".

Atheism is not a religion. It may be a belief, but a belief does not in and of it self make it a religion. People may make the belief of no God into a religion, that's true. I certainly don't care if the government here decides to share the Christian Christmas, or the general Christmas festivities. I've always enjoyed both Christmas and New Year (Christmas in the UK has a fair amount of similarities to the US Thanksgiving, it being a time for family, turkey consumption and general peace and good will to all). And I certainly hope we keep the lights, and tree, presents, nativity scenes and the all the rest out there, in public. Bah Humbug to those who are offended by a wonderful time of the year. I've never seen what the offense if all about.

(Sidenote: Winterval, the idea that Christmas was a banned word in the UK or local governments there is a myth... never happened except in the minds of the more knee-jerk shock journos who like to write the words "PC gone mad" as many times as possible).

Quote: thecesspit

Of course the US was founded as a Christian Nation. Most Western Europeans were Christian at the time. That doesn't mean it can't change (or stay the same... which ever you so shall decide). Havng been something doesn't mean it should always be so. Several of the founding fathers were Deists as far as I can tell. I don't expect to see a non-Judeo-Christian in the White House for about forty years, though. Or at least not one whose "out".

"Several" yes, I think it was about three. The rest were mostly protestant with I think one catholic thrown in. Just saw this on Sunday as I said, forgot a bit of it because it was so intense. The USA had been going less christian because since the JFK Administration it has been harder and harder for a European to come over here and easier for others.

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Atheism is not a religion. It may be a belief, but a belief does not in and of it self make it a religion. People may make the belief of no God into a religion, that's true.

Yes, and that is where atheism falls. Ones who do not "make it a religion" would fall towards agnostic. In the USA atheism and envrionmentalism seem to be the two non-god-driven religions. Weirdest thing I ever saw was an atheist professor who went to an atheist church. Actually used christian hymns and replaced "God" with "Man" per him when someone asked if he was an athiest why was he always talking about church.

Quote: thecesspit

The separation was really to avoid the state defining Christian practice (something the British government had been good at doing for the last 200 years), rather than keeping the state to be irreligious/agnostic/atheist.

In part. You should also consider the concerns of the people who declared their independence. They were concerned about avoiding religious wars, like those that had taken palce in europe between Catholics and Protestants. That meant not pushing religion trhough government, nor government through religion. This concern was also strongly tied to freedom of conscience.

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Of course the US was founded as a Christian Nation. Most Western Europeans were Christian at the time.

A nation made mostly of Christians is not necessarily a Christian nation. That is, it won't have by necessity laws compatible with Christianity only, nor give prefferences to Christians, nor make Christianity the centerpiece and goal of government. For a contrasting example, look at any Islamic nation. For a milder version, look at Israel; it is a Jewish state.

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Atheism is not a religion.

And thank god for that! :P

Quote: thecesspit

I've always enjoyed both Christmas and New Year (Christmas in the UK has a fair amount of similarities to the US Thanksgiving, it being a time for family, turkey consumption and general peace and good will to all). And I certainly hope we keep the lights, and tree, presents, nativity scenes and the all the rest out there, in public. Bah Humbug to those who are offended by a wonderful time of the year. I've never seen what the offense if all about.

(Sidenote: Winterval, the idea that Christmas was a banned word in the UK or local governments there is a myth... never happened except in the minds of the more knee-jerk shock journos who like to write the words "PC gone mad" as many times as possible).

Here's a question: Why do they say "Happy Christmas" over there while we say "Merry Christmas?" I always thought that was something the British came up with (and doesn't Scrooge say it in ACC?) Did they just lose their way and revert back to the plain vanilla greeting? I always thought "Merry" was a nice little diversion from "Happy" Everything Else.

Yes, there is no mention of separation of church and state in the Constitution, but there might as well be. Both Jefferson and Madison used the phrase in contemporaneous writings, and they wrote the dadgummed thing. The Supreme Court noted the phrase with approval in 1879 and have basically incorporated it as text of the First Amendment ever since.

The Court said in County of Allegheny v. ACLU that nativity scenes on public property are not okay while Menorahs (Jewish ritual candelabras) and Christmas Trees are okay because those parts of the holiday season have become secularized to some extent (I would tend to disagree). The whole establishment clause case law is kind of muddled and silly, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Quote: Nareed

Actually it isn't a Christian nation. I don't think there's any such thing anywhere on Earth, except perhaps the Vatican (if you can regard it as a real country). I've yet to see the words "Christian Nation" anywhere on the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution...

For that matter, the constitutional text could have been easily as written by an atheist of the time period as a Christian. It probably would have a different emphasis on freedom of religion, to general freedom which included religious belief.

Being a "Christian nation" is about as important as it was "Men only vote" nation as well. Well, people of light color anyway.

I absolutely despise it with nearly all of my being, but not for religious reasons.

I hate it because regardless of religion or lack thereof, Xmas used to be special to me. Now I get it rammed down my throat so much starting from mid freaking October that by the time it's here, I'm just glad it's over. Xmas songs used to be fun to sing in late winter, now I'm burnt out on them well before Thanksgiving. Driving around and seeing the elaborate decor used to have a wow factor, now it's just some gaudy nonsense I ignore for 3 months out of the year. It's killed everything Xmas used to be to me.

Does anyone else feel this way? Specifically those who are very religious, don't you feel "your day" has been taken away from you and severley watered down? I know my mood at this time of year can only be explained by using nearly every expletive in the book.

At least for me, it's not an athiest thing. Wish me a Merry Xmas and you'll probably get one in return, unless I'm feeling obnoxious, then you might get a dry wish for a Joyous Wednesday instead. Either way, feel free to bring on the Jesus, just not until His time is come.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Well I can see your point but what I mean is : Unlike others I will not take legal action I just dont care, I will just be bitter inside. Yes I do understand this is a christian nation which is fine, I just dislike it when people say Merry Christmas, or God Bless You etc... I say "Happy end of the year holiday season" (seriously). It is hard though to knock someone who says something with good intentions so I just say thank you and squirm inside.

Nick, I've read enough of your posts to think of you as a considerate and thoughtful person. When someone wishes you well no matter how they express it, they're doing just that- wishing you well. They're not trying to convert you or ram anything down your throat, so there's no need to feel bitter. On the other hand your response could be seen as insincere to some.

Remember, bitterness destroys the vessel in which it is kept.

I do accept the well wishing, but still feel slightly annoyed inside. Tonight I was at a sushi restaurant and they were playing christmas music. If I had noticed before I sat down I would have left.... I am not sure why I dislike the holidays so much, it seemed to start after my freshman year of college. I have an idea of why I might dislike it but do not wish to share it on the forum. Some could say talking to a counselor could help, but getting a b.a. in psychology I do not buy the therapy, it is the same as talking to a stuffed animal. Anyway to those who celebrate the holidays, enjoy them and I wish you well for things that bring joy to your life, and to those like me who sit at home and sulk about how their life is nothing what they thought it would be 7 years ago misery loves company so if you are in LV around the holidays we can meet up and be miserable together.

You know what I kinda of agree with Face in that Christmas gets so overplayed that we lose the exciting anticipation for it and then immediately aftrwards it is gone in a flash, what a let down! I think we should hold off on the carols, music, and decorations till at least Dec. 17th and then also extend the music and fun after Christmas day for at least a week or two.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Some could say talking to a counselor could help, but getting a b.a. in psychology I do not buy the therapy, it is the same as talking to a stuffed animal. Anyway to those who celebrate the holidays, enjoy them and I wish you well for things that bring joy to your life, and to those like me who sit at home and sulk about how their life is nothing what they thought it would be 7 years ago misery loves company so if you are in LV around the holidays we can meet up and be miserable together.

Stuffed animals don't charge you $70 for a 50 min hour. Too bad I didn't see your offer in 2007, was in Vegas. Have to say if you dislike Christmas it is the place to be. I saw a total of one tree in one casino and it was not "Vegas-Sized" at all. If I had not known it was Christmas I'd never know. Weird.

Quote: AZDuffman

You need to face the fact that the USA was founded as a Christian Nation and that is what the majority prefers. I will give you $500.00 if you find for me the phrase "seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Look at any number of old (even newer) doccuments and you will see them dated "November 25 in the year of our Lord 2011."

I don't like Haloween Decorations but I realize that so many people do that it is what it is.

BTW: it appears "Atheism" is your religion (as being opposed to agnostic) so by demanding it not be in parks you are thus wanting to impose your religion on others.

Just a return rant. We now return you to your regularly scheduled blogging......................

And I'll give YOU $500 if you find the word "god" in The Constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The first article of The Bill of Rights. My point is that if you spend MY tax dollars to support YOUR religion, then you have used my tax dollars and the power of government to establish your religion.

And note, I enjoy Christmas, and the holiday season, and Christmas songs both Christian and secular. I'll take "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays", and "God bless you" all in the spirit intended. Keep the religious decorations on the churches and your own property, and I'm fine with that.

Christmas is a day to gamble, win big, and tip the (miserable because they have to be there on a holiday) dealers generously!

Quote: Mosca

And I'll give YOU $500 if you find the word "god" in The Constitution.

How about $250 for a synonomous term?

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names"

The fact that is both states "Our Lord" and uses the Christian Calender by stating the year 1787 shows proof of a Christian background in the writing. By requiring witness to the same Lord of those who signed it is further proof.

Establishment clause was never supposed to be about "tax dollars supporting a religion." It was about not having a state religion similar to the Church of England. The Founding Fathers never intended the USA to be an agnostic state.

Please wire the funds to the poker cage at Rivers Casino.......................

I don't know if you can or cannot claim the intention of the founding fathers. There's a lot of them, and they all had different beliefs and intentions. WHICH is the very beauty of the first amendment... the state should have no opinion on the matter of someone's personal beliefs, be they Christian, atheist, Muslim or Jewish.

No-one sensible would claim that there isn't a Christian background to the Constitution and it's amendments. That's as self evident as saying it was a White, Male, Anglo-Saxon background as well. If AZDuffman was writing a constitution, I'd be bloody surprised if it was from a African, Communist, Muslim perspective.

Quote: AZDuffman

"Several" yes, I think it was about three. The rest were mostly protestant with I think one catholic thrown in. Just saw this on Sunday as I said, forgot a bit of it because it was so intense. The USA had been going less christian because since the JFK Administration it has been harder and harder for a European to come over here and easier for others.

If you want a Christian nation, you should be happy. Less and less people in Europe identify with a religion, while I thought the biggest groups immigrating into the US are Hispanic Catholics (and some from the Phillipinnes as well, also Catholics).

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Yes, and that is where atheism falls. Ones who do not "make it a religion" would fall towards agnostic. In the USA atheism and envrionmentalism seem to be the two non-god-driven religions. Weirdest thing I ever saw was an atheist professor who went to an atheist church. Actually used christian hymns and replaced "God" with "Man" per him when someone asked if he was an athiest why was he always talking about church.

Sounds like a Humanist group to me.

You know there's different groups who express atheism, like there's different groups of people who have faith in God and Jesus Christ (from the Branch Davidians, 7th Day Adventists to the Methodists and Lutherans and Catholics).

There's odd-balls and weird behaviour regardless of their core beliefs.

Quote: FrGamble

You know what I kinda of agree with Face in that Christmas gets so overplayed that we lose the exciting anticipation for it and then immediately aftrwards it is gone in a flash, what a let down! I think we should hold off on the carols, music, and decorations till at least Dec. 17th and then also extend the music and fun after Christmas day for at least a week or two.

Amen to that! If I may ask further, the above sounds very neutral, as in it could have been made by anybody who celebrates Xmas, be they Christian, Catholic, Jewish, non believer, whatever. Do you, as a man of God , take offense to todays Xmas? I ask because in my own cultural celebration, the focus is on the culture. Nowadays commerce is accepted as a part of it, in some cases encouraged, but it absolutely is a distant second and must follow certain customs. Commerce that flies in the face of the culture is severely frowned upon. The celebration of the culture is ultimate, in other words. Does it bother you (or any believer) that Xmas is overwhelmingly commercial today?

Quote: thecesspit

Sounds like a Humanist group to me.

The Human Fund. Money...for People. ;)

Quote: thecesspit

Sounds like a Humanist group to me.

"Unitarian" was what he called it IIRC. I don't know if that is some large group or some local offshoot of something else. The guy said on day one he was an athiest and communist, so not as he pretended to be what he was not. Back then I didn't challengs profs in class. But two years later another lefty, not a communist but more of an envrionmental-legalize dope prof, seemed to enjoy having me go head to head in class. I will always remember the day he said he had some subject to discuss, points at me before he read it, and says (polite but challenging), "I'm, callling on you first so be prepared." Today both would probably offer me a B to just not show up for class.

I can understand the Christmas theme coming in just after American Thanksgiving. For my family, the holiday season coincides with the trees and the Christmas lights, all of which are taken care of on the weekend two weeks before Christmas, which means the tree is procured and put up on the 10th; the lights go up a week earlier on a nice weather day. The tree comes down on the day after New Years day and the lights go down the week after.

However, I've seen Christmas decorations for the first time go up on my block two weeks ago... just too early. The local station started playing Christmas music three weeks ago and others are now following suit. By the time Christmas actually comes, if I'm not careful, I'm sick of it. TV stations started playing Christmas movies already... they get stored on the DVR and will be played the week of Christmas. It just dilutes the meaningful holiday.

As for the separation of Church and State, the Constitution goes out of its way to take any reference to religion out of it, and in fact, in its first Amendment, makes a statement that essentially allows for freedom of religion... this in a document that is over 200 years old in an age where practically everyone who signed the document was a practicing Christian. It's amazing really.

I agree that government dollars should not be spent on Christmas decorations and I would say that it will only be a matter of time before religion will be taken out of all things that are government related, including schools, government buildings, and government institutions. That should not prevent however, an employee from putting up decorations in his cubicle or a staff Christmas party (off hours or during lunch), provided that the opportunity is not taken away from other employees (a Festivus Pole, a Menorah, Kwanzaa candles, etc) to do the same thing. As long as the rules are the same for everybody, it should make sense. But to put out public Christmas decorations inside a government building nowadays is just inviting lawsuits.

Quote: AZDuffman

"Unitarian" was what he called it IIRC. I don't know if that is some large group or some local offshoot of something else.

The Unitarian's are an odd/interesting group... they believe in enabling a spiritual awakening and a search for truth. Members may or may not be christian, atheist, pagan, polytheist and so on. It's more about a congregation of people examining and searching for some sort of spiritual life, truth and meaning, which may involve the Christian God, a inate "God", a deist God, a internalized God, or a Humanist or Atheist view. Or any other view.

I guess each church of Unitarianism is different... it all grew out of a divergence of Protestant Christian faith back in the day. I think the Unitarian's tend to be politically liberal, egalitarian and concerned with human rights and freedoms.

I always got the Unitarian and United Reform Church mixed up.

Quote: thecesspit

I guess each church of Unitarianism is different...

I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, but it is my understanding is that they don't even agree on whether they are properly called a "church". I'm not sure whether that uncertainty applies to their organization or to the physical facility. Perhaps some member here could come out of the closet about being a Unitarian and educate some of us.

Quote: thecesspit

The Unitarian's are an odd/interesting group.

Then thuis guy was in the right place. 20+ years later a guy I know who said he had the same guy remembered him like yesterday.