Here's what's wrong with religion

Quote: FrGamble

... the possibility that a cathedral only taps into a dormant seed of something special that is inside all of us.

I have long beleived in something similar, but have thought of it from the scientific side of things, that it is part of the natural evolutionary path.

It's intriguing to see a religious person talking about such a thing.

Quote: FrGamble

Religion is the only adequate way to describe the fundamental nature of the universe!

I think that's where you lose a lot of people. That's an awfully one-sided argument - one only a religious person might make. Surely you must realize that a non-religious person would laugh at such a statement.

I often have a debate in my head about the origin of the universe. If you believe in the Big Bang theory, then the question is, Where did the stuff used in the Big Bang come from? If you believe in Divine Creation, then the question is, Where did God come from?

Personally, I accept the Big Bang theory. However, I also believe in the possibility that there are beings who are further along on the evolutionary scale, who to us would seem god-like. Should these beings be worshiped as gods? I do not think so.


Then again, maybe I'm too immersed in the world of Science Fiction. I often think about god and evolution, as described in the book version of 2001, as Dave Bowman is traveling thru the Star Gate:

Quote:

[Extraterrestrials] may have progressed from biological species, which are fragile shells for the mind at best, into immortal machine entities and then, over innumerable eons, they could emerge from the chrysalis of matter transformed into beings of pure energy and spirit. Their potentialities would be limitless and their intelligence ungraspable by humans. These beings would be gods to the billions of less advanced races in the universe, just as man would appear a god to an ant.

Quote: Nareed

So, DJ, to answer your question, in the event that it hasn't been answered by this long laundry list of a rant (and surely with more to come): is it right to mock people for their beliefs?

Let me answer like this: would it be okay for me, Nareed, to mock people for beliefs which have caused me and mine untold missery and anguish, and further should I freely mock for their beliefs people who, for reason of their belief, wish to contrain or limit me?

No.

But is it all right for me to mock their beliefs?

You bet it is.

I feel bad that you have been mocked. I can no more prove to you that G_D exists than you can prove to me that you were born the wrong sex. I believe I remember you were TG... anyway I imagine thats a tough load to carry and I wish you well.

I can tell you where I see G_D, in the faces of my children, the mystical rhythm and math of nature, the good feeling I get when I volunteer or take on a cause that promotes positive vibes. Is my G_D different from a Muslim's/Jews G_D? I doubt it. G_D cant reveal himself unless you are listening. I have had a few occasions where I feel G_D has spoken to me. I would be happy to share but wont unless asked because they are very personal stories and mockery would not be cool. I don't think anyone here including Fr. Gamble is wanting to convert you but I can promise you Fr. Gamble wouldn't turn you away or mock you if you came to him for guidance. The essence of religion (Christianity) is putting yourself behind G_D and others, being self absorbed is a bad way for anyone to go through life because you aren't enriching the experience for anyone else.

A quote you might think about from a book called "On the loose"

Nature might have made Sphinxes in her spare time or Mona Lisas with her left hand, Blindfolded. Instead she gave the grain of sand, the polished river stone, The Grand Canyon. So you went to the Louvre: What did you see? After the first Artist Only the copyist.
-Terry and Renny Russell

And one on contradiction from Mr. Hughes

Oh God of dust and rainbows, help us see that without dust the rainbow would not be.
--Langston Hughes

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I often have a debate in my head about the origin of the universe. If you believe in the Big Bang theory, then the question is, Where did the stuff used in the Big Bang come from?

Why should it have come from somewhere?

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If you believe in Divine Creation, then the question is, Where did God come from?

That's a better question, since it kills the argument from design.

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However, I also believe in the possibility that there are beings who are further along on the evolutionary scale, who to us would seem god-like. Should these beings be worshiped as gods? I do not think so.

That may not be your choice to make :)

Personally with each passing day the SETI project finds noting, I'm beginning to believe that either: 1) intelligent life or technological civilizations (not the same thing) must be incredibly rare, 2) we're all the intelligent life in the galaxy (either of all time or at this time), or 3) We're the most technologically advanced species in the galaxy at this time.

I admit all 3 choices seem very unlikely, but the fact is our knwoledge on the subject is too limited for even intelligent speculation. We need more data.

Quote: Scotty71

I can no more prove to you that G_D exists than you can prove to me that you were born the wrong sex.

Actually, I can. In fact, I will have to, to at least two shrinks and maybe to one surgeon. I just don't have to prove it to anyone else.

Quote:

I don't think anyone here including Fr. Gamble is wanting to convert you but

Here? No. No one's trying here. But many users here, including the good father, have tried to push faith on me. As in "not believeing in god requries faith," or "surely you agree faith is eseential in our lives."

Quote:

I can promise you Fr. Gamble wouldn't turn you away or mock you if you came to him for guidance.

I'm sure that's so. Out of respect for him and you, I wont' tell you why I would never seek guidance from any kind of religion.

Quote: Nareed

Actually, I can. In fact, I will have to, to at least two shrinks and maybe to one surgeon. I just don't have to prove it to anyone else.

Actually you cant... You feel something strongly that is a mystery to many many people and it can't be quantified... I would think someone like you would need a lot more evidence than the fact that you feel like you were born in the wrong body. Isn't there some blood test, something to prove to the rest of the world that you are justified to modify your body? See that sounds like an A-hole comment, like most of yours about religion... It's personal thing and you should not tell others their faith isn't valid unless they provide you with hard evidence other than feelings or assumptions.
I would have found a post "Here's whats wrong with gays/TV's/TG's" equally as offensive as yours about religion.

Proof...(poof?)

In the middle of any great calamity, (for instance a tornado), if a church survives in the middle of it, that's proof of divine grace to someone; or if the church is flattened but no one is hurt, also proof to someone; or then if some people are lost and some saved then the saved ones are god's grace; or if the church is completely lost and the congregation is lost, then surely someone outside the church will come along and announce they have been taken into the Lord's arms.

Well, I only wish I could get credit for that kind of record of performance. You're great no matter what happens.

Quote: Scotty71

It's personal thing and you should not tell others their faith isn't valid unless they provide you with hard evidence other than feelings or assumptions.

I don't recall saying that.

There are two usages of the word faith. One, which is the one under discussion here, is to believe without proof. The second is the belief and practice of a religion.

I've no objections to the second. I'm quite contemptous of the first, especially when people try to push it on me. I've also a lot of objections to those who want to force their beleifs on me. all the more so since they cannot provide any tangible basis for their belief, and because I have yet to see a single shred of evidence to support any kinf of faith-based belief.

Now, contempt does breed a certain kind of easy dismissal. So perhaps I've been too harsh when arguing over the existence of deities. For example, I know full well many people get offended when "God" ins't spelled with a capital letter, or when the word deity is sued. I'm sorry, but "God" isn't a propper name, it's a noun of some sort, and I don't use a capital letter. I see as much reason to belive in God as there is to belive in Thor or Rah, too, so I use the wor deity instead.

I think I may also gotten somewaht mocking when dismissing arguments. If so I apologize and will try not to do so again. I won't even try to justify it now.

Nareed, if I may be so bold to judge you, your earlier, very long posts... Loved Them. No disrespect intended, but you are often very sarcastic. Sometimes it's humorous in nature, and makes me giggle. Sometimes it's kind of hard to tell, could be humor, could be mockery. Other times....well, in any case, I thought it was a very good arguement, and, at least for me, informative in how you feel and understand your beliefs.

Quote: FrGamble

I think Face or someone else said a more important question might be why we do or don't believe in God, maybe that would be better than outright dismissing one choice as stupid. Again can you not see how insulting and patronizing that is?

Almost, Father. I think the "Does He Exist" has been done to death. It's ok to revisit every now and then, but long conversation turns into what we've seen in the last few pages - arguements that deteriorate into anger, over a subject we can't possibly know. The "why", yes, I think can possibly hold more clues, possibly more answers, and doesn't get near the attention as the "Does" question. That's why I posted the Seneca story, and I'm sure there are many stories you could use in it's place. In fact, "why" isn't the only other question, but anything beats the "Does" question, since it Can Not Be Answered.

You are correct I would not call for dismission, but that works both ways. I am no one to tell Nareed to dismiss her beliefs of athieism any more than I would tell you to dismiss Christianity. I'm not even really saying "consider" dismissing one or the other. But DON'T fully dismiss one out of hand, and I would say this to both of you. I, as an athieist, have learned MUCH from the teachings of The Bible. These lessons did not come until I dropped the hatred and stopped blocking anything even remotely religious from entering my life. These lessons did not weaken my own... is it faith or lack of faith?...they've only made me stronger and wiser, and it has come to no cost of myself, my beliefs, or who I am. Don't block the message based on the messenger, in other words.

Quote: MathExtremist

A long time ago, before monotheism, gods or supernatural beings were used to explain that which humanity could not. All of the pre-Abrahamic religions, including the Greek/Roman pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, the Native American pantheon (and I mean both north and south -- they were different), the Chinese pantheon, all of these were developed by people to explain what early humans observed but could not understand. Something as simple as "the Earth is round" was totally unknown to early man, so he invented sun-gods carrying a flaming ball of light across the sky, disappearing into the underworld every night. The concept of "underworld" is a throwback to when humanity thought the Earth was *flat* and therefore there must be something *under* it. So you had Apollo, Ra, Surya, Tonatiuh, etc.

But then we learned that the Earth was round. And after that, we learned that the Sun wasn't revolving around it but vice versa. And now nobody reveres Apollo or Ra anymore because we understand that the Sun isn't a plaything of the gods but a ball of hot gasses undergoing constant nuclear fusion.

And ME is right on cue with a nice example. In watching the works of Dr Stephen Hawking, I remember something that caught me as off. In whatever he was working on at the time (something nearly over my head) he stated he used information he knew to be wrong. Kind of weird, huh? Why would one do that? He NEEDED to in order to get past a hump. He could not get to the result without filling a gap with SOMETHING, even if that something wasn't necessarily right. As a result, he could see the end, go back and find out why the wrong was wrong, fix it, and was able to continue his lifes work. ME's example illustrates my point.

We both, theists and athiests, want answers. (Not to dig on you Father, but that is one of my minor gripes, that religion states they already HAVE the answers.) But I think that combining the two, at least in thought, might open up new avenues of learning and understanding. That's why I participate in religious conversations, even though I don't have a dog in the fight. That's why, Father, I questioned you and lighly encouraged if you could TRY to understand athieism. I'm in no way trying to convert either side, I just see a value in working together.

Quote: Nareed

I think I may also gotten somewaht mocking when dismissing arguments. If so I apologize and will try not to do so again. I won't even try to justify it now.

Apology accepted. A bet that can be settled on the other side... I'll even give odds.

Quote: Nareed

But many users here, including the good father, have tried to push faith on me. As in "not believeing in god requries faith," or "surely you agree faith is eseential in our lives." [and] I'm sure that's so. Out of respect for him and you, I wont' tell you why I would never seek guidance from any kind of religion.

Nareed...I've enjoyed some of your posts immensely...I was going to respond to the water heater thread as I'm a home builder, but by the time I saw it I thought it had been handled for you.

On this topic we're polar opposites. No argument about what you want to believe or not believe, but I don't want you pushing your beliefs on me.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Nareed -

That was a very well written post. But it leaves me wanting to ask one question:

Do you think it's acceptable to mock someone for their beliefs?

I'm (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that by "belief" you mean religious (strictly theological or pertaining to a supposed supernatural realm) belief?

If so, then a prior question might be: Should we have a taboo against mocking only religious belief, but not against mocking secular (political or scientific) beliefs which seem absurd? That is, should only religious belief be automatically enshrined, just because it's "religious"? What if one is a civil religionist (a worshipper of his State or Nation)?

Quote: NowTheSerpent

What if one is a civil religionist (a worshipper of his State or Nation)?

Then off with his head!!

Do animals believe in God?

Perhaps, but I know for sure that dyslexic agnostic insomniacs toss and turn in bed all night wondering if there really is a dog.

Quote: point7

Do animals believe in God?

It depends.

The dog sees things more or less like this "they bring me food! they open doors for me! They must be gods!"

The cat is more like "they bring food to me! they open doors for me! I must be a god!"

Ha! I love it. Thanks Nareed.

Quote: FrGamble

Ha! I love it. Thanks Nareed.

You're welcome.

I can't recall where I read it. But it makes sense given that dogs' are social animals and used to hierarchies, while cats are semi-scoial and loners. It is true the dog likes being with you, but the cat merely tolerates having you around.

sorry........lame

Whats wrong with Religion???

Its organized ito a money, power, and influence scheme, just like Government.

The REAL question is choosing between Government and Religion, which one do you want making the Common Laws???

Jumped into this really late but here is one thing that is rarely brought up. The Catholic Church and many Protestant religions believe that Christ is God and a part of the Trinity.

They worship Jesus.

Jesus was a Jew. He lived as a Jew; died as a Jew; rose from the dead as a Jew.

Catholics and their fellow believers worship a Jew as God. Now that is the supreme irony.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Jumped into this really late but here is one thing that is rarely brought up. The Catholic Church and many Protestant religions believe that Christ is God and a part of the Trinity.

They worship Jesus.

Jesus was a Jew. He lived as a Jew; died as a Jew; rose from the dead as a Jew.

Catholics and their fellow believers worship a Jew as God. Now that is the supreme irony.

I had a friend in high school who couldn't believe that Christ was Jewish. He insisted he was the first Christian. But he was born and died a Jew (though a marginal one, to quote a famous book).

Many Christians don't know this. But it doesn't really matter. Christianity and Judaism are fundamentally incompatible; one believes that Jesus was the Messiah (and God), and the other believes the messianic age has not yet occurred and that Jesus was a false Messiah.

Quote: teddys

I had a friend in high school who couldn't believe that Christ was Jewish. He insisted he was the first Christian. But he was born and died a Jew (though a marginal one, to quote a famous book).

Many Christians don't know this. But it doesn't really matter. Christianity and Judaism are fundamentally incompatible; one believes that Jesus was the Messiah (and God), and the other believes the messianic age has not yet occurred and that Jesus was a false Messiah.

The things people believe about their religion can be mind-blowing. I mean, when the tenet of "agree with me or be punished for all eternity in a pit of fire" is one of the so-called mainstream tenets of one's religion, the other stuff can be pretty far out there.

This is how I see things...

If you ever consider the MWI of Quantum Mechanics, God is allowed to exist. MWI also allows me to me to be God and my name is William.

Quote: wroberson

This is how I see things...

If you ever consider the MWI of Quantum Mechanics, God is allowed to exist. MWI also allows me to me to be God and my name is William.

To paraphrase Sheldon Cooper: In some Universe God is a clown made of candy.

;P

Chocolate Jesus is the the best I can do here.

I like to think I live a moral and acceptable life.
If God doesn't like it he can go to Hell, not me.
It's His path. He chose this path.

I guess by the end there will be some grand lesson I've learned.

I find myself free of parents....

@wroberson I agree with you 100%. As long as I live a moral and acceptable life god should be ok with me and if he's not then to the hell with him