avargov
avargov
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May 2nd, 2011 at 10:58:57 AM permalink
This has gotten completely out of hand. Anyone who has read any of my posts from before today would never think me to have fringe political views. And I still don't. And I have never stated I believe nothing the government claims. However, in this age of immediate media coverage, I find it hard to believe they haven't released any proof. I seem to recall hearing that 2 H-53 choppers went to the compound, but the Pakistanis didn't pick them up. It all just seems a bit to convienent to me. And the timing seems a bit odd. I am just asking for proof from my government, not too much to ask on an issue so big in the psyche of the population. If you guys want to ostrisize(sp?) me for that, so be it, that is your choice. But let me restate: I am as happy as anyone else that he is dead.

And Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
rxwine
rxwine
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:04:52 AM permalink
It would potentially endanger lives to report bin Laden dead. That's a reason not to do it, or that is, not to fake it.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
pacomartin
pacomartin
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:10:12 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I think the burial at sea is supposed to be a compromise between mutilation and familial return. We want to cut OBL's face into pieces, but that offends the religion of his (relatively innocent) family. They want the body back, but that is unacceptable to the U.S. Government. So the solution is to dispose of the body, intact, in a neutral location.



My personal feeling is in this situation the less said the better.

Federal law in the USA declares that covert assassination attempts are illegal. Not even the president can order covert killings. But they are no doubt telling the truth that he resisted arrest. Who thinks that he didn't go for his gun? But I have no doubt that the military has the technology to capture the man alive with no danger to the soldiers involved. This was not a casual police operation, but a full scale assault of the US military. My assumption is that their marching orders were to wait for resistance and then kill him.

I assume there is video tape somewhere showing details, but it should be a state secret. I think president Obama has the right to destroy it in the interest of national safety after viewing it.

The smartest thing is to say "We found him, he resisted, we killed him, and we buried him at sea". Then you have to do your best to prepare for the backlash. Maybe a decade or two from now the men who went on the mission can be honored. Perhaps only on their deathbed or not even then since their families can always be targeted.

Why do we need to know who got paid and how much? I also assume that someone is living in relative luxury far from Pakistan. Who cares?
rxwine
rxwine
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:12:07 AM permalink
Also, reason 2, if bin Laden could make an appearence in a couple weeks citing all current news to prove he's alive, why on Earth would they want to be put in that position.

Now if he's secretly captured and has been squirreled away -- and that has top secret classification -- I could actually see a point to that. Though eventually, that would have to be explained why they thought it was important to do it.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Virgi
Virgi
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:15:18 AM permalink
Quote: avargov

This has gotten completely out of hand. Anyone who has read any of my posts from before today would never think me to have fringe political views. And I still don't. And I have never stated I believe nothing the government claims. However, in this age of immediate media coverage, I find it hard to believe they haven't released any proof. I seem to recall hearing that 2 H-53 choppers went to the compound, but the Pakistanis didn't pick them up. It all just seems a bit to convienent to me. And the timing seems a bit odd. I am just asking for proof from my government, not too much to ask on an issue so big in the psyche of the population. If you guys want to ostrisize(sp?) me for that, so be it, that is your choice. But let me restate: I am as happy as anyone else that he is dead.

And Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.



But isn't he saying things like that to deflect away from the real issue of why atheists say they require proof for a belief in the existence of something that others have said they believe in, while on the other hand those same people have no problem believing in something others say is true but they have yet to see proof of?

Double-standards: The standard of the Obama Administration.
Virgi
Virgi
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:18:14 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Also, reason 2, if bin Laden could make an appearence in a couple weeks citing all current news to prove he's alive, why on Earth would they want to be put in that position.



That's exactly why this administration, led by Obama, is such an all or nothing proposition. The end goal is so all-important to them that they will do and risk anything to get there. Remember Obamacare? Remember all those fabulous promises he told us during his campaign? Remember how he put it all on the line then ended up looking stupid with the Cambridge cop affair?
kp
kp
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:18:42 AM permalink
Quote: avargov

I am just asking for proof from my government


What proof would you like to see and what would be generally acceptable as something not faked?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:22:37 AM permalink
Quote: avargov

And Mike, the flat earth comment was way beneath you, I would have expected better from a man like you.



No insult was intended. I was trying to say that at some point skepticism can go too far, as in the case of the Flat Earth Society. In this case, I find it much more plausible that the Bin Laden killing went down as reported than the whole thing being a fraud. You may choose to doubt it. Normally I admire skepticism, but like anything, it can be taken too far.

Quote: kp

What proof would you like to see and what would be generally acceptable as something not faked?



Exactly! If this whole thing were a fraud they could have easily faked videos and pictures of the event as well. Sometimes you just have to go with Occom's Razor and accept the explanation that makes the most sense.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
rxwine
rxwine
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:28:23 AM permalink
There may also be an ongoing discussion on what information to eventually release. Inflaming the faithful by making the wrong decision is not a plus.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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May 2nd, 2011 at 11:29:20 AM permalink
Quote: Virgi

But isn't he saying things like that to deflect away from the real issue of why atheists say they require proof for a belief in the existence of something that others have said they believe in, while on the other hand those same people have no problem believing in something others say is true but they have yet to see proof of?

Double-standards: The standard of the Obama Administration.



You miss a very important point, though you stated it yourself. There's a difference between believing something because others believe it, and believing something that others state is a fact. Especial if the believer views the fact giver as credible. You may indeed not find the government as credible, while you do find others of a faith credible. So be it.

I thought the real issue her is whether we should believe that Osama Bin Laden has been shot and killed by Navy Seals without further evidence than the government saying so. I'd expect about as much evidence in this respect if it had been Bush or Obama in the White House when it happened. I didn't see much evidence given when his second in command was killed, or when they bombed several of the training camps, I didn't see much evidence of weapons of Mass Destruction, I didn't see any evidence of a link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorism atrocity, but I did see evidence clearly presented about a link between Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Afghanistan.

Given that the it's entirely possible a surgical strike by a team of trained soldiers could find and kill Bin Laden hardly flickers on my disbelief meter, I'll take that claim, notwithstanding further evidence to the contrary. It hardly matters to be if he's dead, alive or actually a computer generated graphic used to scare me into giving up liberties at airports. I don't think his death will change Al Qaeda's war on the west any one bit.

I can understand other the skepticism and request for further information of evidence. I suspect you'll get some, but not in the next little while... give it a few years and there'll be documentary special.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

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