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Nareed
Nareed
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February 16th, 2011 at 11:28:23 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

If there's a way to install a uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. in a man, AND MAKE THEM FUNCTIONAL, I'd love to know about it. I realize that some so-called "sex change operations" involve installing an artifical vagina in the space vacated after a man's penis and testicles are removed. This, however, is NOT the same as an actual female vagina.



Ok, you ignoramus, since you're so eager, let's talk.

1) the vagina made in SRS is fully functional. It has a lining, clitoris, outer and inner labia. In some cases patients cannot have an orgasm, but sensation is there. It's not "artificial," either, but made with the patient's own tissues. When you say the penis is removed, you're wrong. It's reshaped.

2) If a TG woman without ovaries, uterus, etc, is not a woman, then a genetic female who has undergone a radical hysterectomy is not a woman, either. I don't see how you can escape that logic (of course you will with some unreasonable fantasy and half-truth, I've full faith in you). There are millions of women like that, who've needed to have their ovaries, tubes and uterus removed for reasons tha go from cancer to ectopic pregnancies, cysts, etc etc etc. By your faulty illogic, they were women at some point, but then they ceased to be. God knows what they are now, though, as they're clearly not men.

3) There's no technical reason why the attempt couldn't be made to transplant ovaries and the rest into a TG patient, or for that matter into any other woman. There is an ethical reason. Transplants are a huge risk at surgery and afterwards cause problems like rejection. Therefore transplants are only done in life or death cases.

This is changing, as recently there have been a few arm, hand and face transplants, none of which were life or death. It may happen in SRS someday.

4) You may know the thyroid gland is crucial to your survival. yet millions of people lack one beacuse of injury, cancer or even iodine defficiencies. They go on with their lives using synthetic thryroid hormones. According to your proprietary brand of illogic, they are all dead because their biochemical balance is maintained through medication rather than natural means.

Post-menopausal women, aprticularly those with premature menopause, take hormone therapy, too. I guess you don't consider them women, maybe just half-women since they have their genitalia, because their body chemistry is manitained through medication. the same applies to some women with radical hysterectomies. Who knew there were so many non-women out there?

The endocrine system, a misnomer BTW, is made up of more than sex hormones. It's true the the massive doses required can cause problems. That's why TG people are warned not to drink alcohol, to ease the load on the liver, and are in the care of an endocrinologist. It's also why it's recommended to undergo SRS. Once the primary glands producing the wrong sex hormones are removed, HRT can proceed on lower doses.

So, are you now done spouting ignorance as mannifest truth, revealed by the almighty mkl, or do you wish to go on?
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thecesspit
thecesspit
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February 16th, 2011 at 11:38:13 AM permalink
I assume that the genetic level can't be changed though?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
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February 16th, 2011 at 11:51:17 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I assume that the genetic level can't be changed though?



No. But I don't see that it matters. How often do you look at someone's genes?

BTW there are XX men and XY women. It's not the Y chromosome itself that determines sex, but rather a gene or group of genes usually found in it. If these go missing in a transcription error, you get a female. if they migrate to an X chromosome in the same way, you get a male. There are also XY women with androgen insensitivity syndrome.

I don't know for a fact that I have an XY pair. I assume I do, because the odds favor it. But I've never looked into it. I don't intend to, either.
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ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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February 16th, 2011 at 1:12:32 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No. But I don't see that it matters. How often do you look at someone's genes?



Wait ... isn't one of the main supports for homosexuality related to genetics? "It's not a choice."?

It can't be basd on genes and then genes don't matter, can it?
kracker21
kracker21
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February 16th, 2011 at 2:10:13 PM permalink
Let me state this is not very PC but want to know where the line is.

What if a white guy wanted to be black made a few changes and he looked reasonably like a black guy would you consider him to be a black man?

For the record i would say no.
thecesspit
thecesspit
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February 16th, 2011 at 2:16:55 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No. But I don't see that it matters. How often do you look at someone's genes?

BTW there are XX men and XY women. It's not the Y chromosome itself that determines sex, but rather a gene or group of genes usually found in it. If these go missing in a transcription error, you get a female. if they migrate to an X chromosome in the same way, you get a male. There are also XY women with androgen insensitivity syndrome.

I don't know for a fact that I have an XY pair. I assume I do, because the odds favor it. But I've never looked into it. I don't intend to, either.



Purely a case of just understanding the level of changes possible, and making sure my assumptions were correct in this case.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
thecesspit
thecesspit
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February 16th, 2011 at 2:17:57 PM permalink
Quote: kracker21

Let me state this is not very PC but want to know where the line is.

What if a white guy wanted to be black made a few changes and he looked reasonably like a black guy would you consider him to be a black man?

For the record i would say no.



I would say yes for purposes of ethnic appearance.

I'd say it doesn't matter what he looks like for ethnicity.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
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February 17th, 2011 at 9:34:07 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Purely a case of just understanding the level of changes possible, and making sure my assumptions were correct in this case.



I think you've pointed out a common misperception. Changing your genes won't do anything. Organs and structures are already there, they won't change because the genes change. Suppose you lose an arm in an accident. You still have all the genes for that arm, but that won't make it grow back.

Hypothetically it is possible to coax a lost limb to regrow. Some animals, such as salamnders, do it routinely. And there's evidence human fingertips can regrow on their own, at least in some people. Whether you could coax genes to change an existing limb or organ, though, is a different proposition. And I don't see how you could coax testes not just to change into ovaries, but to crawl back up the abdominal cavity.

Now suppose you get a heart transplant. the genes in the donor heart are different from yours, but the heart works just as well. If you have coronary bypass surgery, the arteries or veins taken from elsewhere in your body are not as good as the coronaries they replace, but they do the job even if they came from genes coding something different.

That's what I mean also when I say genes don't matter as far as sex changes are concerned.

You could take a cell from my body, change the XY pair to an XX and grow a clone, sometime in the future and if we ever grow human clones. BUt what good would that do to me? All that scenario is good for is the Clone Song :)
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mkl654321
mkl654321
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February 17th, 2011 at 9:47:50 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Cisgender doesn't mean what you think it does, Mr Teacher. Next time I need to be psycho-analysed, I'll be sure to ask you first.

And that, gentle reader, is why I think MLK's comments are often examples asshattery.



I'm not current on whatever terms are being used this week in the world of transgenders. My point remains, that I articulated a simple truth about sex change operations and you reacted negatively to that because you don't like that truth. You're trying to shoot the messenger. Like Nareed, you are hostile to everything and everyone because you feel picked-upon by the world. Therefore, I realize that your anger at me is simply displacement. Therefore, I forgive you for it.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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February 17th, 2011 at 9:52:57 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Ok, you ignoramus, since you're so eager, let's talk.


So, are you now done spouting ignorance as mannifest truth, revealed by the almighty mkl, or do you wish to go on?



Talk to me with decent manners, and get that massive chip off your shoulder, or don't talk to me at all. I'm not responsible for your unhappiness at being born in the wrong body. YOU, however, are responsible for the way you spew it at the world.

Your post was filled with massive illogic, but I won't bother to debate that with you, because

1. It's impossible to convince someone that something they really really really really want to believe isn't true, and
2. You're behaving like a jerk, and you'll have to put a civil tongue in your head before I'll bother to speak with you again.

P.S. I do, however, understand that your anger at me is simply displacement from your anger at the world. So you are somewhat less to blame than otherwise. It is still possible, I hope, for you to change your attitude about and hatred for the world that made you born in the wrong body.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw

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