thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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September 21st, 2010 at 9:12:56 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Many of the uninsured in the US choose to be that way, like young people, especially college students. I never had insurance till I was 40 and now, in my late 50's, I have never used it for anything except a physical every 2 years. I'm certainly not unique.



So, my answer remains true... I looked it up last night, 32% of Americans don't have their own private insurance (this, as you say, trends towards the younger have less insurance than the older). if I had a chronic, fatal disease, and no health insurance, I'm guessing I'd prefer to be north of the border or in the UK than living in the US.

How many of those 32% is not actually a choice, but a cold reality that health care insurance is too high a cost/ And, how many bankruptcies a year are due to health care costs EVEN among the insured?

Quote:

Its a fact that people in countries with 'free' healthcare abuse the crap out of it. They show up at the doctors every time they sniffle or fart crossways. Thats why is so backed up all the time.



Others would say that's a case of more people taking preventative steps in their healthcare. As a questin, how many trips to the doctor are you allowed with your insurance? What stops you making a trip to your doctor for a crossways fart? Is their a strict limit on usage?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 21st, 2010 at 9:54:38 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Many of the uninsured in the US choose to be that way, like young people, especially college students. I never had insurance till I was 40 and now, in my late 50's, I have never used it for anything except a physical every 2 years. I'm certainly not unique. Its a fact that people in countries with 'free' healthcare abuse the crap out of it. They show up at the doctors every time they sniffle or fart crossways. Thats why is so backed up all the time.



Consider yourself lucky to be healthy.

The 'fact' is that US healthcare per capita is by far the most expensive and doesn't cover the underinsured. Yes, you get treated in an emergency but the only way that you can settle the bill is through bankruptcy or through government support, in which case, someone is paying the bill.

And the very expensive healthcare is thwarting real progress in America. If you choose not to insure your employees, then the employee pays a bill that is increasing by about 10 percent every year, and skyrockets if there are preexisting conditions or other factors. If the employer elects for group coverage, then they lose their competitiveness with other companies that do not provide health care or with other western countries who have nationalized their healthcare.

If US health insurance was on par in cost with other countries and offered a way to cover the uninsured that was affordable (such as a sliding scale), it would be far more superior than anywhere else because of the efficiency of the care.

And Obamacare only addresses 1/2 the issue. It takes care of the under-insured part of the equation but does nothing to control skyrocketing costs and leaves his administration (quite fairly) open to criticism.

As for patient abuse of the health care system for other countries, I don't believe that statement is true at all.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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September 21st, 2010 at 10:12:32 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo


As for patient abuse of the health care system for other countries, I don't believe that statement is true at all.



I'm sure it's true. The people who talk about it just don't ever properly differentiate it from patient abuse of insurance in this country. When folks make that argument about universal healthcare, they always skip the part where insurance ALSO allows for unlimited trips to the Doc in almost all cases. If idiots here would stop going in every time they have a cold, costs would be much lower for the rest of us...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 21st, 2010 at 10:26:12 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Colleges now require proof of insurance as a part of the registration process. I literally have to tell the University of Minnesota my Blue Cross Blue Shield of MN member ID # and policy # before I can register for the next term in my MBA program. If I did not already have insurance, I would be forced to buy the college's negotiated coverage before I could register.

To be clear, It's been this way since I started attending the UMN as a graduate student in 2003 - so this is not Obamacare in action. I don't recall if my undergraduate institution had a similar requirement...



Just about any college nowadays requires that students at least pay a mandatory health care fee, which covers visits to the student health center and discounted prescriptions. However, insurance, as we understand it, is usually not mandatory if the college is large enough to have a full-service health center. Otherwise, the situation is often as you describe.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
thecesspit
thecesspit
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September 21st, 2010 at 10:28:44 AM permalink
If this is the case, I think EvenBob's contention that the UK and Canada health systems are backed up due to patient abuse, as being a unique problem to social healthcare is null and void.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 21st, 2010 at 3:53:43 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

If this is the case, I think EvenBob's contention that the UK and Canada health systems are backed up due to patient abuse, as being a unique problem to social healthcare is null and void.



Here is what explodes EvenBob's contention: the simple concept of opportunity cost. If you decide to go to the doctor (in any kind of health care system), you are paying, in addition to any direct fees, the opportunity cost of the time you spend; you cannot use that time for anything else. In the U.S., the opportunity cost would be greater for the uninsured, as there would be TWO costs to pay--the cost of care itself and the cost of the time spent obtaining it. For the insured, there is only the opportunity cost of time. So you would expect a scenario where the insured were jamming and crowding out the uninsured, making it impossible for the uninsured to get health care. But this isn't the case.

EvenBob also paints a sordid picture of people crowding into doctors' offices for the slightest ailment or complaint. But once again, he ignores (or, fails to understand) that even "free" health care carries a cost--the opportunity cost mentioned above. If the condition he imagines exists--that of malingering free-riders crowding the waiting rooms, each waiting to get a hangnail treated--then the opportunity cost of going to the doctor will rise, as the waiting times get longer. Eventually some people will give up--and those will be the very people whose ailments are minor, or trivial. Thus, rising opportunity cost functions as a market force, and on the demand side, the benefit of a doctor visit is less for those who have minor ailments. So the market, as all markets, eventually reaches equilibrium (the important concept to realize is that money doesn't have to change hands for there to be a market; there only need to be finite costs and benefits to those who participate in the market).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
boymimbo
boymimbo
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September 21st, 2010 at 5:18:03 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I'm sure it's true. The people who talk about it just don't ever properly differentiate it from patient abuse of insurance in this country. When folks make that argument about universal healthcare, they always skip the part where insurance ALSO allows for unlimited trips to the Doc in almost all cases. If idiots here would stop going in every time they have a cold, costs would be much lower for the rest of us...



Hmmm... I live in Canada. I've seen my doctor, oh say, twice in the past five years. My wife has been once or twice a year and had one hospital stay for appendicitis. My father, who is over 70, sees his doctor once a quarter, and he's had two heart attacks and needs a hip replacement. I've worked 8 years in healthcare on the west coast. In Canada, the issue is doctor shortages -- they go to the United States to work, and and estimated 14 percent of Canadians do not have a family doctor, forcing them to go to walk-in clinics (great option) or emergency rooms (terrible option) for minor issues. The queue system in the ERs in Canada is based on priority, so that someone with a cough and is not in dire straits waits for hours while those with more acute issues are seen more quickly, which supports the opportunity cost argument. Patient abuse does happen in Canada, but it's the same in the United States, except that the market works very well to accomodate the demand, because medical personell and the middle man insurance companies make a ton of money to provide the service.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
petro
petro
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December 23rd, 2010 at 6:56:50 AM permalink
I have only read the first post by EvenBob. I have been aware of Glenn Beck for years. Imo he is imbalanced. But, this could be due to knowing too much.
I have no doubt that governments at times act corruptly. It is my theory that Glenn Beck has seen corruption in the US government. This would explain the antics on his show.

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