Where to get more than a hand job?
Quote: EvenBobYou're rather missing the point. Married men go to hookers
because it's NOT their wife, because it's a new experience.
Having the wife wear a wig is not the same as having sex
with a 22 year old hooker. They can take that fulfilled fantasy
back to their married bedroom for better married sex. The
45 year old wife in a wig is just their 45 year old wife in a wig.
I give you points for trying to figure out how men think, but it's
the allure of getting some 'strange' that makes men pay for
sex, somebody who's most definitely not his wife in almost
every way.
Actually, you're missing the point; I "get" that many men, married or otherwise, are interested in "strange". And I think it should be legal for both to pursue their interest in a limited, straightforward transaction with a working girl. It's the illegality of it that puts women into situations like sexual slavery, forced prostitution, and working under pimps. If it were legal, licensed and medically protected, the women would be working for their own benefit, and chances are the prices would go down and the quality go up, as well as less STD's in the population, less unplanned pregnancies, less murdered working girls. Japan, Holland, many other places get that; it's America that wants to look down its noses and up its skirts at the same time. That was the first thing I said; I'm saying it again in some detail.
I just made a suggestion for those men with the urge but not the impulse to seek it out for real, that they may be underestimating their own wives' willingness to enjoy this about them and with them. It's a hard conversation to open, and for the partner hearing it to not be threatened by it, but it beats deception and resentment in the relationship by a ton.
Quote: beachbumbabs
I just made a suggestion for those men with the urge but not the impulse to seek it out for real, that they may be underestimating their own wives' willingness to enjoy this about them and with them. .
A 45 year old wife can put on as many outfits and
wigs as she likes, she'll never look and feel like a
22 year old. Role playing is fine, as far as it goes.
Which isn't far. The whole point in seeing a hooker
is because it's NOT the wife. This is something women
never seem to 'get' about men. They like variety, it's
in the DNA.
Totally reminds me of Frank Sinatra's first wife. He
used to cheat on her in the 40's with a different
woman almost every day. She didn't understand it,
she would say things like 'I'll do anything he likes,
all he has to do is ask. He doesn't have to go to all
those other women.' She didn't get that it was the
variety that was appealing, not what they did to or
for him.
Elvis had women lined up outside his hotel rooms in
the 50's, before he was drafted. He'd do 3 a night
sometimes. One of his former bodyguards reports
asking asking E what the point was. E just shrugged
and said 'I dunno, they're all different, it's fun.' Men
totally understand this because we're not emotionally
attached to sex most of the time.
Quote: BeardgoatHow many 22 year olds are looking for men in their forties? A few? And what about men that aren't rich? Zero.... 99.9999% of the time a 22 year old will be with a 40 year old for one reason only. Money
Or sadly drugs. SIGH
Quote: EvenBobA 45 year old wife can put on as many outfits and
wigs as she likes, she'll never look and feel like a
22 year old. Role playing is fine, as far as it goes.
Which isn't far. The whole point in seeing a hooker
is because it's NOT the wife. This is something women
never seem to 'get' about men. They like variety, it's
in the DNA.
Totally reminds me of Frank Sinatra's first wife. He
used to cheat on her in the 40's with a different
woman almost every day. She didn't understand it,
she would say things like 'I'll do anything he likes,
all he has to do is ask. He doesn't have to go to all
those other women.' She didn't get that it was the
variety that was appealing, not what they did to or
for him.
Elvis had women lined up outside his hotel rooms in
the 50's, before he was drafted. He'd do 3 a night
sometimes. One of his former bodyguards reports
asking asking E what the point was. E just shrugged
and said 'I dunno, they're all different, it's fun.' Men
totally understand this because we're not emotionally
attached to sex most of the time.
You know, I would be irritated that you're quoting me out of context (and not for the first time) in order to argue with me a point I've already said I agree with, except that you do that to everyone on here. So I guess it's nothing personal, it's just in your DNA.
Quote: AlanI think seed planting is in our DNA.
Yup. That's why women invented marriage. It's a fact
that when men fathered a baby, it was very hard to get
them to stick around after the kid was born. They
just had no interest in it. Their instinct was to procreate,
which was different than the woman's instinct. So
marriage was invented to keep the man around at least
till the kid was 5 years old, when he had a chance of
fending for him or herself.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou know, I would be irritated that you're quoting me out of context
Nope, not out of context at all. You wrote a paragraph
about legalizing prostitution, than a paragraph about
wives and husbands. I was addressing the second
paragraph. I had no interest in commenting
about legalized prostitution, so I didn't address it, why
would I.
What context are you referring to that went unaddressed.
It wouldn't appear to me that women invented the type of marriage say in the Middle East, where men have many wives and make them all cover their faces in public, etc.
As was said above prostitution has been around for eons and will be around a long time, legal or illegal. The brothels in Nevada continually check for std's and hiv, drug use and provide some safety for the johns and the whores. Being from rural areas I had no idea that prostitutes would walk up and proposition a guy in a casino or on the street, it's funny now. But the first time I was flattered and didn't realize what was going on.
In Wallace Idaho, near the Sunshine mine there were several brothels. They weren't legal but were there for years and it was no secret. Talking to some of the people that lived there, I was told that they hadn't had a serious crime in almost 80 years. Now that houses are shut down I doubt that crime statistic still holds true. When desperate and sexually enraged men could go to a safe whorehouse and get their needs fulfilled they didn't grab women or girls or other targets off the street criminally. So it was a pretty safe place to live for family's who many went to church regularly. I'm sure there were the usual marital battles about the old man going downtown but the system was working.
I personally can't see why it is illegal for a knowledgeable women who wants that kind of employment to not be legally able to do so when it is not only legal but expected for a man to go down in those mines and ruin his lungs, and break his back and shorten his life. When the guy loses his ability to work or dies from the hazards often that is the most viable means of support for some women.
In Japan sexual activity [with a human partner] is declining. The young people are increasingly not dating and don't want the responsibility's of relationships. Also the increased availability of porn and more lifelike sex dolls has helped cause the most rapid decline in birth rate in the world. Men somehow think they would be expected to provide for a wife and the women more often find the sex act [at least with a man] repulsive.
Relationships are tough and society has evolved.
Quote: aceofspadesWhy does the 22 year old have to be a hooker? Can't it be a 22 year old actually interested in them?
I don't know if it is just me or that times have changed, but when I was 22 it took about six months of dating to get to just second base. A hooker would have been my only option.
Quote: EvenBobYup. That's why women invented marriage. It's a fact
that when men fathered a baby, it was very hard to get
them to stick around after the kid was born. They
just had no interest in it. Their instinct was to procreate,
which was different than the woman's instinct. So
marriage was invented to keep the man around at least
till the kid was 5 years old, when he had a chance of
fending for him or herself.
Hard to argue with EvenBob here......I would say guy hangs around until progeny has "hair down there".....then he moves on to another cave.
I know this is terrible evidence, but it seems to me in that in caveman movies like Clan of the Cave Bear, men and women family units generally stuck together, unless one of them died. As much as men are wired to spread their seed to as many women as possible, I think a lot of men would find themselves lonely after a while and settle down to just one woman. There are plenty of young rich celebrity men who could have a different woman every night, but choose to be with just one, at least until the separation/divorce.
Quote: Wizard
I know this is terrible evidence, but it seems to me in that in caveman movies like Clan of the Cave Bear, men and women family units generally stuck together, unless one of them died. As much as men are wired to spread their seed to as many women as possible, I think a lot of men would find themselves lonely after a while .
The area's in black are where you can still have more
than one wife. This concept was spread all over the
world at one time, it was a man's answer to many of
life's problems.
Quote: EvenBobThe area's in black are where you can still have more
than one wife.
What does the grey mean? I see the UK is in grey, along with some other countries in Africa. Same question for the light blue, as in Australia.
Quote: WizardWhat does the grey mean? I see the UK is in grey, along with some other countries in Africa. Same question for the light blue, as in Australia.
Black- Polygamy permitted and practiced
Grey-Legal status unknown or ambiguous
lt Blue-Polygamy generally illegal, but practice not fully criminalised
Blue-Polygamy fully outlawed/abolished and practice fully criminalised
Quote: AlanI think Thailand needs its own color, love you long time for about $60USD. :-) From research.
Your own exhausting research, perhaps?
Quote: EvenBobYour own exhausting research, perhaps?
Perhaps, but don't tell anyone.
Quote: EvenBoblt Blue-Polygamy generally illegal, but practice not fully criminalised
I would have put some south-western states in light blue then.
Just in case anybody cares :)
Quote: WizardI'd be interested to get Paco's take on this. In over 7,500 posts I don't think he has ever said "I don't know" to anything.
I don't know this for certain, but I can site some evidence on polygamy.
Citing 1998 World Cultures Ethnographic Atlas Codebook
The Editor J. Patrick Gray, Department of Anthropology, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Milwaukee, WI. 53201 jpgray@uwm.edu Ethno Atlas of Societies
Of the societieis
186 Independent nuclear, monogamous (M, .m)
453 Independent nuclear, occasional polygyny (N, .n)
69 Preferentially sororal, cowives in same dwelling (R, .r)
18 Preferentially sororal, cowives in separate dwellings (S, .s)
344 Non-sororal, cowives in separate dwellings (Q, .q)
157 Non-sororal, cowives in same dwelling (P, .p)
4 Independent polyandrous families (O, .o)
polygyny = multiple wives
sororal = sister wives
polyandrous = multiple husbands
Quote: WizardI know this is terrible evidence, but it seems to me in that in caveman movies like Clan of the Cave Bear, men and women family units generally stuck together, unless one of them died.
This question is actually fairly easy to answer as female reproduction can be traced through mitochondrial-DNA and males through Y-chromosomes. The answer is that before 18,000 years ago all the genetic evidence points to the fact that most men did not have offspring, and all the children were born from limited numbers of males. It is unlikely that there were handsome men who got laid a lot and practiced some primitive birth control. Either the beta men were murdered or they were forced into roles where they did not have sex.
Keep in mind that scientists have estimated as few as 1 million and as high as 10 million for the world population 12,000 years ago.
I don't knowQuote: WizardDid men or women invent marriage
Quote: pacomartinIt is unlikely that there were handsome men who got laid a lot and practiced some primitive birth control. Either the beta men were murdered or they were forced into roles where they did not have sex.
I knew we could count on you. I think the beta men should have had an uprising and killed the alpha males.
Quote:I don't know
Yes, you do.
Quote: WizardI knew we could count on you. I think the beta men should have had an uprising and killed the alpha males.
They did, that's how you end up with militant uprisings, particularly in those cases in which the powers that be were stronger, (in equal numbers) but outnumbered. The problem is that the Will to Power is self-perpetuating, so as a result, the Beta males would eventually transition into oppressing others, thereby becoming the Alpha males and effectuating a new class of Beta males.
Men invented marriage. Women were property, and men claimed their dowries and their persons, the main way of gaining real estate short of war, and the way to creating legitimate male heirs to pass it to. Women had no choice in the matter for centuries, if not millenia. Modern men like to claim women invented marriage because it's become a world of child support and there's a left-over attitude that a woman's a failure unless she marries (and, in all honesty, a 2 parent household is generally better for the children), but until the last century in Western cultures, it benefitted the men more than the women financially. Women were in a situation where the best they could hope for was to marry upward in status and/or finances for most of that time, but they weren't able to be self-made or upwardly mobile by themselves. If a woman had property, she had it by inheritance, and she didn't generally have control of it; that passed to the man at marriage.
Quote: renoThis thread is the opposite: it started out in the gutter ("where can I buy a blowjob?") and evolved into a serious discussion of mitochondrial-DNA dispersion 18,000 years ago.
Thankfully, we have a lot of well-educated members. When it comes to something really esoteric, Paco is my personal "phone a friend."
Quote: beachbumbabs
Men invented marriage. .
No man in his right mind would invent marriage. Change it,
improve on it, never invent it.
"Women invented Marriage. During the hunting and gathering period of our society, Women needed to guarantee that the Men from their clan (group,family,village,gang) would keep returning to their group."
http://womeninventedmarriage.blogspot.com/
It became common practice, but men would always choose
to have women as slaves or concubines if it were left up to
them. Primitive men, that is. Women invented marriage to
get the man to stick around, they have a tendency to get
bored and wander away. Why would any man say, hmm,
I just want this one woman for the rest of my life. So he
invented polygamy, and then women and religion got rid
of that in most places. Marriage is a natural state for women,
and an unnatural state for men.
Its that way in nature too. In a herd of horses eighty percent of the stallions do not breed. For many species its a battle between the alpha male fighting off competitors and having enough nutritional reserves to make through the winter at all much less as the alpha male. Many an alpha male wins the females but will not survive the Winter at all.Quote: pacomartinThe answer is that before 18,000 years ago all the genetic evidence points to the fact that most men did not have offspring, and all the children were born from limited numbers of males. It is unlikely that there were handsome men who got laid a lot and practiced some primitive birth control. Either the beta men were murdered or they were forced into roles where they did not have sex.
Genghis Kahn's genes are in something like sixteen percent of present day Mongolians. He never paid his soldiers. He raped the youngest and most beautiful women in a captured village and his soldiers raped the rest. A Spartan wife was kept at home with her children but a Spartan husband was often away for years at a time.
I think this entire thread is just another example of Long Term/Short Term ... and whether we are playing in Vegas or not.
In general women often lost control of their finances through marriage, but woman who went to the Klondike had to climb the same passes the men did and so often kept control of their own wealth. A quick look at the Edwardian Era and its clear that women had to appear to have certain values and restraints even if paternity of their children was perhaps clouded. Country parties allowed a great deal of freedom to the sexes but the result was a public persona of Responsible Father and Faithful, child-bearing Wife. Actual lineage and actual activities seemed irrelevant to the Public Image.
Quote: FleaStiffA quick look at the Edwardian Era and its clear that women had to appear to have certain values and restraints even if paternity of their children was perhaps clouded..
Never forget it was men who had to invent the chastity
belt because women were notoriously unfaithful and
to them, marriage was often just an excuse to freely
screw whoever they pleased. Women were expert liars
throughout the ages, and men were far too trusting.
Not much has changed, not really..
Quote: EvenBobNever forget it was men who had to invent the chastity
belt because women were notoriously unfaithful and
to them, marriage was often just an excuse to freely
screw whoever they pleased. Women were expert liars
throughout the ages, and men were far too trusting.
Not much has changed, not really..
Bob - I am not following your logic that marriage enabled women to be promiscuous? Unless you are saying that, because the woman was married, other men were more apt to sleep with them since they had already been deflowered legitimately?
Quote: aceofspadesBob - I am not following your logic that marriage enabled women to be promiscuous?
A single woman's biggest fear in sleeping around
was her loss of reputation, and an unwanted
pregnancy. Women were expected to be virgins
when they married, and if they had even a whiff
of a reputation for not being one, they would never
land a worthwhile husband. Once married, they
could do what they liked, discreetly. They already
had a husband, and even getting pregnant wasn't
a problem. That's why chastity belts were invented.
Men of means were often away on business and
they didn't trust their wives to remain faithful.
Quote: EvenBobA single woman's biggest fear in sleeping around
was her loss of reputation, and an unwanted
pregnancy. Women were expected to be virgins
when they married, and if they had even a whiff
of a reputation for not being one, they would never
land a worthwhile husband. Once married, they
could do what they liked, discreetly. They already
had a husband, and even getting pregnant wasn't
a problem. That's why chastity belts were invented.
Men of means were often away on business and
they didn't trust their wives to remain faithful.
Yeah, pretty much what I said in my post :)
they didn't trust their wives to remain faithful."
The prenup agreement has now replaced the chastity belt.
And bolt cutters have been replaced by the divorce lawyer.
Quote: Buzzard
And bolt cutters have been replaced by the divorce lawyer.
Are you saying divorce lawyers are no better than
bolt cutters?
Quote: EvenBobA single woman's biggest fear in sleeping around
was her loss of reputation, and an unwanted
pregnancy. Women were expected to be virgins
when they married, and if they had even a whiff
of a reputation for not being one, they would never
land a worthwhile husband. Once married, they
could do what they liked, discreetly. They already
had a husband, and even getting pregnant wasn't
a problem. That's why chastity belts were invented.
Men of means were often away on business and
they didn't trust their wives to remain faithful.
You're making my case for me; women were property, to be owned, to be used, to be put on the shelf when the man who "owned" them wasn't using them. Men invented marriage as legalized slavery; women were objects. Men didn't even try to be chaste or faithful; there were whorehouses everywhere in those times, and it was expected that men would use them. Women, including queens (who you'd think would have some power or autonomy), were and are still being put to death for adultery, proven or just suspected. Many men still don't want partners; they want "wives", and by the definition they're using (which is similar to the one implied in this thread, like June Cleaver), I'd like one myself. :)
Quote: BuzzardLet's just say divorce lawyers insure the ex-husband will get F***ED for all the F***ING he got.
San Kinison had the best take on marriage that I
ever heard in some of his routines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GXPd0fnpKw
Quote: beachbumbabsMen invented marriage as legalized slavery
Women invented marriage, men just made it livable.
They couldn't get rid of it, so they made rules that
governed it. It's still a man's world in most places,
even in modern times. Women are governed by their
emotions, men aren't. It's really that simple.
Great scene with Rodney and Sam. A classic !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj5k6toS7i8
Quote: BuzzardLet's just say divorce lawyers insure the ex-husband will get F***ED for all the F***ING he got.
Despite common belief - the Courts do not weigh who F'd who in the bedroom when considering the financial split in a divorce. This only comes up if there is a fidelity clause in the pre-nup or if the paramour was brought around the children (which could affect custody as it may demonstrate bad decision making by that parent)
Quote: BuzzardEvidently no credits in a satire case are necessary for a law degree major.
Nope they did not have a course in satire nor Sartre.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou're making my case for me; women were property, to be owned, to be used, to be put on the shelf when the man who "owned" them wasn't using them. Men invented marriage as legalized slavery; women were objects. Men didn't even try to be chaste or faithful; there were whorehouses everywhere in those times, and it was expected that men would use them. Women, including queens (who you'd think would have some power or autonomy), were and are still being put to death for adultery, proven or just suspected. Many men still don't want partners; they want "wives", and by the definition they're using (which is similar to the one implied in this thread, like June Cleaver), I'd like one myself. :)
You say this like there is something wrong with it?
Sorry Babs, I couldn't help myself, just some misogynist humor.
Quote: beachbumbabs
You're making my case for me; women were property, to be owned, to be used, to be put on the shelf when the man who "owned" them wasn't using them. Men invented marriage as legalized slavery; women were objects. Men didn't even try to be chaste or faithful; there were whorehouses everywhere in those times, and it was expected that men would use them. Women, including queens (who you'd think would have some power or autonomy), were and are still being put to death for adultery, proven or just suspected. Many men still don't want partners; they want "wives", and by the definition they're using (which is similar to the one implied in this thread, like June Cleaver), I'd like one myself. :)
To play devil's advocate...
Men pay for dates and women expect it - this inequality still stands...why?
Men pay women alimony (in most cases it is the man paying)...why?
If women wanted to be independent and not be 'property' - they would not be so willing to be 'kept' by men even after marriage.
Quote: aceofspadesNope they did not have a course in satire no Sartre.
Being and Nothingness is not only a book by Sartre but a description of my last attorney in court !
Quote: aceofspades
Men pay for dates and women expect it - this inequality still stands...why?
Men pay women alimony (in most cases it is the man paying)...why?
If women wanted to be independent and not be 'property' - they would not be so willing to be 'kept' by men even after marriage.
Exactly! Women will berate you for opening the
car door for them, and then bleed you dry in
divorce court. As usual, all their signals are mixed,
and men spend most of their time scratching their
heads wondering what the hell is happening now.
Charlton Heston had it right when he said the key
to a happy marriage is just agree with whatever
your wife says, never make waves, and apologize
constantly. Yes dear, I was wrong. I'm so sorry,
of course you're right. You were right, please forgive
me. Etc.
