Are Transwomen Women

We all know you have an obsession with transwoman. It’s the same thing as with closeted gay men who are homophobic, you a man who fancies transwoman likes to deflect and make jokes about others enjoying transwoman.

We all still love you even though you like to dabble in the pre op trans scene from time to time.

After my clarification on site policy on pronouns, I expected some discussion on gender identity. However, the topic has gone off the rails. I plan to close this thread at 8:00PM PST today. This is your chance to conclude what you want to say and then move on.

These guys that turned into women really have to keep their voice up high and feminine to be a greeter at some superstore.

It’s polite to treat people how they would like to be treated if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

That said, I think an opinion with no bias built in would be: if this person’s skeleton was found after missing for years, would they be identified as a male or female skeleton?

Quote: AZDuffman

I am in a minority group on here. 2 actually. Conservative and not an atheist. I simply deal with it.
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Well, I was going to take a few days off. I'm going to take the days mostly off.

Okay, gloves off.

Anyway, you're going to tell me that you're religious and, all of a sudden, you have a deep concern with being able to physically prove things?

Selective, much?

Okay, well, let's meet up and you can physically demonstrate your probable fictional character to me, how's that sound? You can further demonstrate all of the BS that your fictional character said (most of which he didn't even supposedly say) in that ridiculous book of yours that has led to your staunch conservatism.

Irrespective of whether or not trans women are women, at least they aren't taking their marching orders from a fairy tale.

Quote: littleredrooster

this is a very small group - I was referring to the society as a whole - a whole different thing - this group has no power at all other than to ban you or suspend you - a very minor thing in the scheme of things - the society as a whole has overwhelming power

it's an entirely different thing - if you're a member of one minority group - you feel it when a different minority group gets mocked or insulted - you know it could be your turn next - and you know it could happen to your children or other family members - and you know that at any moment it could morph into a physical thing

I mean, it depends, right?

I'm Caucasian, heterosexual, male, can't dance and am remarkably average everywhere but height and between the ears.

Even then, I don't feel the need to insult individuals, mock them or refuse to comply with very simple requests of theirs just to prove a point.

Maybe that's just the difference between an Agnostic (myself) and what seems to be an Evangelical, such as AZDuffman, I don't know.

Perhaps, somewhere along the line, some of us Agnostics were taught basic concepts such as respect, tolerance, love for your fellow man and to display some amount of understanding for others.  Hell, maybe some of us Agnostics even read about that in a book somewhere and thought, "Wow, what great concepts!"

If only I could find that book, then perhaps I could share it with certain people on the Evangelical Right...

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

I don't know anything about you specifically or if this applies to you but I'm always curious about straight men who state a transgender woman actually becomes a woman. Does that mean those same straight men would be willing to have a relationship and/or be intimate with these newly made women?

This is a great point for a totally different reason.

From my perspective, the only reason that I could EVER have to actually CARE about someone's gender (because I am not in the healthcare field) is if I had an eye towards sleeping with that person. That said, I have been in a monogamous relationship for something like eight and a half years.

It is with that I conclude that a transgender person's gender matters infinitely more to them than it does to me. What possible concern could I have with what gender someone is if I do not plan to copulate with them?

So, when we talk about pronouns---we're talking about a person making an extremely simple request, (provided the pronouns are standard---I won't be hassled with any of these new concoctions and they can just be they/their) generally, to switch from one side of singular third-person usage to the other. Again, another individual's gender impacts me exactly zero, I can't think of a context where it would, so given that the request means something to them and not me, and it's easy for me to comply with, I comply with it.

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

True, there is someone for everyone but "some do" is rather vague. That could be a minute number. IMO, if a man truly believes this then he should have no problem having a relationship with a trans woman. I've asked a few men elsewhere online and now here but I never get an actual straightforward response. Thus my curiosity remains.

Here's my point:

The thread titles asks: Are transwomen women?

My answer is: Not only does it mean more to them than it does me, but why I would care?

Honestly, the only context where I might even feel the need to have an opinion against the notion of whether transwomen are women is when it comes to women's amateur and professional sports. Other than that, pick anyone in the world, their gender is irrelevant to me.

We're also not talking about sports, are we? Hell, we weren't even talking about whether or not Nareed is, in fact, a woman. We were talking about the Forum policy that Nareed should be called she/her as those are her requested pronouns...which is totally irrelevant to AZDuffman's belief, or lack thereof, that she is, in fact, a woman.

I would think that anyone is free to believe what they want on that issue, but that does nothing to change that it's a showing of basic human respect to not call people that which they do not wish to be called. It's a sign of empathy to know that, if you are not trans, you will never understand what it's like to be them. It's a sign of tolerance to acquiesce to their requests if what they are asking for is inconsequential to you, which it should be.

I mean, being me is easy anyway, right? I think in ways and do the things that my physical biology tells me I should be doing. I look in the mirror and take my absence of anything resembling breasts to mean I haven't been eating too much!

Let's suppose that transgenderism is, as AZDuffman would have it, a mental illness; just for the sake of argument. Okay, if it were, then I am just doing what I can to make their lives more acceptable to them because they are dealing with their mental illness the best way they know how.

I don't think that being socially ostracized is going to help them very much at all. I don't think being insulted, disregarded or deliberately called something they don't identify with is going to be very helpful to them, which goes back to tolerance and empathy.

Evangelicals should try it sometime.

And, to whatever extent that it could possibly, be a mental illness, just for the purpose of argument, I'm not a mental health clinician, counselor, psychiatrist or psychologist...so I am not capable of treating transgenderism, or gender dysmorphia, even if I did accept that there was something there to treat, which I don't accept, necessarily. The best that I can do is not upset that person in the moment by showing them the same respect I'd show to anyone else.

Quote: rxwine

What does being attracted to someone have anything to do what the person is who is the object of desire is? By that reasoning people having sex with an animal says something about what the animal is?

Haha! I'd never thought of that one before. I hope you don't mind if I use that line in the future.

CONCLUSION

So, are transwomen women?

My conclusion is that my opinion of them is irrelevant, one way or another.

It's really not a question that does, or ever could, matter to me as much as it does to the trans individual in question.

More than that, I don't expect other people to define themselves based on what my opinions of them are. I wouldn't define myself by someone else's opinion of me. Someone might hear that I have a high voice (relative to my height and size---it's pretty average relative to male range, overall) and decide that I'm a homosexual. I know that I am not a homosexual, or even bisexual, so am I supposed to live dictated by my own perception and belief that I am heterosexual, or by theirs that would have me as a homosexual?

Ideally, my opinion would be completely irrelevant also to the trans person and they wouldn't need me to speak in a way that validates them. I certainly don't need anyone to validate me, so I should hope for all others that they become so secure in themselves one day.

In the meantime, their gender means more to them than it does me, so as a matter of fundamental respect, I will do the very simple thing they are asking.

Some Evangelicals could learn more about tolerance, but evidently, they're more concerned with, "Science," (at least, selectively) than they are with The Bible.

Many Evangelicals also seem to be showing a surprising interest in grammar, for some reason.

Also, AZDuffman, I'm not one to put myself so highly above others that I expect them to conform to my standards for them. I have to be completely honest with you: I've met a handful of transexual people in my time, and when it comes to hanging out with someone for an afternoon, I can't think of a single one of them that I wouldn't choose as opposed to you.

I simply don't see why this constant derision of others is necessary and I am so exhausted by all the pointless arguing everyone does. This is probably going to be the last that I have to say on this thread, which I tend to hope will be locked sooner than later. If I even wanted to read this discussion....which is the same as perhaps hundreds of discussions I've already read here and there....then I'd just go on DT.

There's still time for you to change and perhaps even embrace Matthew 22:39 and Matthew 5:43-48, but I doubt you will. I don't pray, but I'll be hoping for you. I hope you find the peace and the serenity that will enable you to love (or, like me, accept) more and judge less.

Quote: mcallister3200

It’s polite to treat people how they would like to be treated if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

That said, I think an opinion with no bias built in would be: if this person’s skeleton was found after missing for years, would they be identified as a male or female skeleton?
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I don't expect to live for however many years, and even if I did, I don't expect that I would become an archaeologist, so why I should I care about the physiology of their skeleton?

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: AZDuffman

Because a man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man. Simple science.
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It's always amusing to me when right-wingers suddenly profess an interest in science. The party of anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-climate change, and drink bleach. But now suddenly science matters.

Yeah, I know that's political, but it needed to be said.

See y'all in X days.
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Pretty sure everyone already knows you get a seperate set of rules.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: mcallister3200

It’s polite to treat people how they would like to be treated if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

That said, I think an opinion with no bias built in would be: if this person’s skeleton was found after missing for years, would they be identified as a male or female skeleton?
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I don't expect to live for however many years, and even if I did, I don't expect that I would become an archaeologist, so why I should I care about the physiology of their skeleton?
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You already know the point so I don’t know why I’m dumb enough to answer.

The truth is only any different while living if we decide, as we are as a society, to say that there is a major difference or distinction between biological sex and gender. Which becomes a social or physchological distinction rather than physical. And if that’s what’s best without hurting anyone else than so be it, but I don’t think derision of those that don’t accept there is a difference is justifiable.

Quote: mcallister3200

You already know the point so I don’t know why I’m dumb enough to answer.

The truth is only any different while living if we decide, as we are as a society, to say that there is a major difference or distinction between biological sex and gender. Which becomes a social or physchological distinction rather than physical. And if that’s what’s best without hurting anyone else than so be it, but I don’t think derision of those that don’t accept there is a difference is justifiable.
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The social contract is ever evolving. Hell, maybe these alternative pronouns will eventually take root to the extent that learning those becomes unavoidable, but I doubt it.

The only thing that I really know is that I see a group being attacked and I see a group doing the attacking. The group doing the attacking is the same as it ever was and will continue to lose at every turn. They're getting much closer to being considered a total laughingstock; I might even live to see it. I already know what I think about the group doing the attacking, so defending the group being attacked is pretty much a default response. Some of that could be my bias against religion, but I am finally starting to get better at differentiating between denominations and individuals, so that's growth.

Here's the thing: We're talking about what people should be called. It's a question of decorum and respect, not of what physically is or is not. That's why I say my opinion on whether or not a transwoman is, in fact, a woman (as I would personally define a woman) is irrelevant to how I should treat people.

Anyway, read between the lines on this one for me. If I thought a male--->female physically becomes a woman, then what possible problem could I have with them being in women's athletics? That said, it has nothing to do with me referring to the female-presenting cashier at the gas station as, "She/Her," when talking about her, or with referring to her by her chosen first name rather than what I know her first name used to be.

Quote: Mission146

Some of that could be my bias against religion, but I am finally starting to get better at differentiating between denominations and individuals, so that's growth.


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Maybe we should just go back to generalizing and bashing broad geographic regions instead? You take the southeast, I’ll take the metropolitan northeast?