3-Card shuffle madness

Just got back from my trip to Vegas and could not believe how suspicious the cards were being dealt at Three Card by the automatic shuffling/dealing machines. Has anyone else noticed multiple rounds would have almost identical cards dealt to the players as the round previous. What I am trying to explain is getting hands like 9,5,7 one hand and the next hand the person next to me gets a similar hand 9,5,7 (different suit). I even saw my wife get nearly identical hands twice in a row. Another pattern I noticed was cards stringing from player to player. For example all of the 6's would be out on the table however perfectly strung out to individual players. So I might have 2 6's, the player to my left would have a 6 and then the player next to them (or the dealer) would have the 4th 6. Maddening! Needless to say I have always felt card shufflers take out statistical variation of natural play but it felt like I was playing video slots with 0% chance of winning.
I did more homework since returning and since have decided not to play Three Card anymore simply based on the house edge being over 32%. I get this same sensation when playing BJ with a continuous shuffler even though the edges is only 11%.
How is it that casinos can be given so much control over how the cards are dealt? Eventually they are going to take 50% and and most people wont be the wiser.

Welcome to the forum!!!!!!
I don't think there is a blackjack game in the world with a house edge of 11 percent/ and what are you talking about with three card poker having 32 percent he???????????????
Where you playing in someone's basement?

As WoN stated, your house edges are horribly wrong.

The mind locks onto what it perceives as patterns and we as humans also tend to more readily recall disappointing results. However, the thought of the shuffle machines specifically associated with 3CP being slightly off has been persisting for quite some time.

Should a pattern be identifiable... as many believe - garbage cards returning round after round- it would then be easily crushed by waiting for a round with many cards Q++ then raising your wager expecting them to return.

FWIW, most houses have two decks, one which shuffles while the other is in play. Also, arranging a deck to either the detriment or benefit of the player would be highly illegal and finally there is a cap on how abusive a casino can be with it's house edge.

If intent on playing carnival type games with potentially large payouts, may I suggest you take a look at Ultimate Hold 'Em. It is quite popular with tables in the vast majority of casinos, has a low minimum wager and a house advantage comparable to blackjack- although the variance is a beast.

Thanks for the welcome!!!!
I appreciate the advice about ultimate Texas Holden.
I am new to the forum so I apologize for misusing the terminology. And I'm not quite up to speed on all the acronyms.
My numbers may not be exact and depending on which casinos they can vary. Approximately 32% is what I've heard the LVS casinos won last year on the carnival game of 3CP.

Hello Sir Ace. The problems of you three-card-poker game and the blackjack game. Games are become much unfavorite. 11 to the cent and 32 to the cent games are to the high. My £250 of mine to become £222.5/£170 of the respect: black jack game and game of three-card-poker. Un session of much expensive. Fortunate! For you, game of cards to make money. Must be intelligence, motivation. For money for you, Googol "blackjack the counting cards book". Recommend from me are Million Dollar BlackJack. Many book is good, not every though.

Quote: RS

Hello Sir Ace. The problems of you three-card-poker game and the blackjack game. Games are become much unfavorite. 11 to the cent and 32 to the cent games are to the high. My £250 of mine to become £222.5/£170 of the respect: black jack game and game of three-card-poker. Un session of much expensive. Fortunate! For you, game of cards to make money. Must be intelligence, motivation. For money for you, Googol "blackjack the counting cards book". Recommend from me are Million Dollar BlackJack. Many book is good, not every though.

Good Morning RS, you feeling funny today?

Quote: LVJackal

As WoN stated, your house edges are horribly wrong.

The mind locks onto what it perceives as patterns and we as humans also tend to more readily recall disappointing results. However, the thought of the shuffle machines specifically associated with 3CP being slightly off has been persisting for quite some time.

Should a pattern be identifiable... as many believe - garbage cards returning round after round- it would then be easily crushed by waiting for a round with many cards Q++ then raising your wager expecting them to return.

FWIW, most houses have two decks, one which shuffles while the other is in play. Also, arranging a deck to either the detriment or benefit of the player would be highly illegal and finally there is a cap on how abusive a casino can be with it's house edge.

If intent on playing carnival type games with potentially large payouts, may I suggest you take a look at Ultimate Hold 'Em. It is quite popular with tables in the vast majority of casinos, has a low minimum wager and a house advantage comparable to blackjack- although the variance is a beast.

There are times when I read a reply that I find myself wishing there were some way to give a thumbs up or a like. This is one of those times.
I will look for Ultimate Hold 'em this weekend when I visit the Beau Rivage and Hard Rock on Saturday.

You are confusing hold with house edge.

Quote: RS

Hello Sir Ace. The problems of you three-card-poker game and the blackjack game. Games are become much unfavorite. 11 to the cent and 32 to the cent games are to the high. My £250 of mine to become £222.5/£170 of the respect: black jack game and game of three-card-poker. Un session of much expensive. Fortunate! For you, game of cards to make money. Must be intelligence, motivation. For money for you, Googol "blackjack the counting cards book". Recommend from me are Million Dollar BlackJack. Many book is good, not every though.

Quote: Hunterhill

You are confusing hold with house edge.

For the average player, what is the difference between hold and house edge? 3CP theoretically has a house edge of 3.38% yet Nevada casinos have Hold/Won nearly 32% last year on 3CP. Maybe I just don't understand how does the math adds up here?

Quote: wakeace

Just got back from my trip to Vegas and could not believe how suspicious the cards were being dealt at Three Card by the automatic shuffling/dealing machines. Has anyone else noticed multiple rounds would have almost identical cards dealt to the players as the round previous. What I am trying to explain is getting hands like 9,5,7 one hand and the next hand the person next to me gets a similar hand 9,5,7 (different suit). I even saw my wife get nearly identical hands twice in a row. Another pattern I noticed was cards stringing from player to player. For example all of the 6's would be out on the table however perfectly strung out to individual players. So I might have 2 6's, the player to my left would have a 6 and then the player next to them (or the dealer) would have the 4th 6. Maddening! Needless to say I have always felt card shufflers take out statistical variation of natural play but it felt like I was playing video slots with 0% chance of winning.
I did more homework since returning and since have decided not to play Three Card anymore simply based on the house edge being over 32%. I get this same sensation when playing BJ with a continuous shuffler even though the edges is only 11%.
How is it that casinos can be given so much control over how the cards are dealt? Eventually they are going to take 50% and and most people wont be the wiser.

I agree, never play blackjack from a shuffler

Because your bankroll is bet over and over again, usually until it's all gone.

Quote: wakeace

For the average player, what is the difference between hold and house edge? 3CP theoretically has a house edge of 3.38% yet Nevada casinos have Hold/Won nearly 32% last year on 3CP. Maybe I just don't understand how does the math adds up here?

House Edge = what % of each bet the casino should win (ie: you lose). For instance, a $100 wager on a game with a 3.38% house edge, means the player can expect to lose $3.38 per $100 wager.

Hold = what % of cash buy in at each table the casino expects to keep (hold). All games are different, because this also takes into account how long someone is playing a game. If there's $10,000 in cash-buy-ins on a specific table, and players left with $8,300 (player loss of $1,700)...then the table's hold is $1,700 / $10,000 = 17%.

Quote: wakeace

For the average player, what is the difference between hold and house edge? 3CP theoretically has a house edge of 3.38% yet Nevada casinos have Hold/Won nearly 32% last year on 3CP. Maybe I just don't understand how does the math adds up here?

http://bfy.tw/3sHq

Quote: teliot

(link)

or,



to be fair, the OP came here thinking it was a good place for information. Welcome to the site!

I've been here a while and have observed that it is good for information if you can glean it, but there are plenty of landmines too. We watch people get blown up plenty of times, and usually they just aren't well prepared enough to recognize what people are really informed and what people are just impostors. Teliot is impatient for a reason, his recent post at his site is all about the impostors, some of whom write textbooks for college use, he says.

You need to prepare yourself better. I suggest going to the wizard of odds site [see link below] and get yourself a little more educated first. Of course you can just come here and socialize, but watch where you step LOL. Generally speaking, the gambling world is full of people and things that do not have your best interests in mind. You need to always be aware of that, think of yourself when you make a bet, you want to win, and isn't it true that if the other fellow knows less all the better? This thing trumps all in this world, except there are people, yes like Teliot, who bring the character they obtained elsewhere [I don't doubt] to the table and can't just be another entity trying to take your money.

One thing hard to accept for many is that they also need to deeply discount the information they get from friends, family, and other gamblers.

Quote: wakeace

Needless to say I have always felt card shufflers take out statistical variation of natural play but it felt like I was playing video slots with 0% chance of winning. .

What are the odds of you getting A spades, K clubs, 6 diamonds, against a dealer with 3 hearts, 3 clubs, and 2 hearts? It is 1 in 488,410,000. If that happened to you, do you freak out and say the cards are fixed? Do you even notice that an occurrence that happens about twice in a billion deals just happened? Of course not. The statistical variation of natural play will continue to come up with equally unlikely events, the rub is you only choose to notice some of them!

Quote: SOOPOO

What are the odds of you getting A spades, K clubs, 6 diamonds, against a dealer with 3 hearts, 3 clubs, and 2 hearts? It is 1 in 488,410,000. If that happened to you, do you freak out and say the cards are fixed? Do you even notice that an occurrence that happens about twice in a billion deals just happened? Of course not. The statistical variation of natural play will continue to come up with equally unlikely events, the rub is you only choose to notice some of them!

This. And, I've been playing 3 Card for about 15 years, and I have to say that the game conforms relentlessly to its numbers and expectations.

Let's face it, if you wanted to MAKE money you would have gone to work that day instead of to the casino (APs excepted, for you the casino IS work). People play 3 Card to have fun, and either get a SF or 3OAK, or a string of flushes and straights. Decide your budget for that fun, play the cards, and don't moan if you lose because that's what you decided the risk was worth.

I want to get back to my original observation of having similar hands repeat at the table and what I call stringers. I am not suggesting the casinos are cheating. I think they are operating within regulation. I believe they can modify their house edge in 3CP similar to how a slot machine edge can be changed. I wonder if once that shuffle button is pressed the machine chooses which hands come out and when just like slot machines choose winning or losing reels. The coincidence of junk hands looking the same as the previous junk hand is a pattern I have recognized at multiple tables in at least 4 different casinos and wonder if anyone else has noticed that. Is it a feature of the programming of the card shuffler. I know card shufflers have the ability to read cards because it makes sure all cards were put back into the machine and will show an error if a card is missing. In that case I imagine the shufflers are simply sorting the cards into winning and losing hands and able to control the winning edge of the house very easily. A slight change in the program changing the house edge by .5% would then theoretically result in more losing hands being dealt and more junk hands showing up on the table. i don't call this machine a shuffler but more of a hand generator. Was there ever a time where 3CP was ever dealt by hand?

Yes 3cp was dealt by hand and still is at a few places.Your concerns about 3cp have been discussed for years.There is no built in method to program the machines to do what you say.What you are experiencing is selective memory bias.

A year ago I would have said no large corporation would risk their license to pull such shenannigans, but Volkswagen...... You get a 'junk hand' (no pair, straight or flush) around 3 out 4 hands. So you will notice many streaks of junk hands all the time!

Is your hypothesis possible? Yes. Even remotely likely? No.

99.9999999999999 percent impossible- more likely you are just noticing when it happens and not noticing when it does not. If there were that setting them the cards would not be random so they WOULD BE cheating

Thing is, all junk hands look the same. 7d/4s/3d looks the same as 7d/5c/3h looks the same as 9c/6d/2h looks the same as....

And addressing your thought, the casinos don't do it because they don't have to. The numbers take care of it for them. There's no point to it.

It's quite possible to get many non-qualifier type hands in a row.

As to the shufflers themselves, there are state regulations, an independent audit process for the software, and physical limitations that force the machine to random-shuffle, not set the hands. For the machine to sort the cards, a key must be inserted and turned to a particular setting whose only function is to sort them in deck order. After the shuffler does its shuffling job (including counting the cards) and as the cards are spit out in hand packets, they cross over an optical reader that tells the machine what it's dealing. I'm not aware of the optical reader being used (for tracking bonuses or creating a hand log) anywhere for 3CP, but it could be. (It's often used on PaiGow Poker; it's the same machine programmed for a different game.)

The shuffler manufacturer guarantees their software is random, goes through a certification process that includes a physical seal on the chip insertion that contains the shuffling instructions, and the machines are checked regularly by independent regulators to insure the seal is intact and the software un-tampered with.

As other folks said above, the game has a high enough house edge that they don't need to make the game even worse through cheating you or manipulating the hands. They make all they need by 1) forcing you to act first and 2) not fully paying your hand when they have a bad one (dealer qualifying) and 3) not paying you fully (true odds) on your best hands (this on both the main game and all the sidebets, separately).

No question the game can run bad for many hands at a time. No question you see similar cards in other players' hands on successive deals (keeping in mind there are 2 decks in rotation). Cards just run that way sometimes.

Quote: beachbumbabs

As to the shufflers themselves [snip]

T'is always refreshing to read your posts BBB!

Quote: beachbumbabs

As to the shufflers themselves, there are state regulations, an independent audit process for the software, and physical limitations that force the machine to random-shuffle, not set the hands. For the machine to sort the cards, a key must be inserted and turned to a particular setting whose only function is to sort them in deck order. After the shuffler does its shuffling job (including counting the cards) and as the cards are spit out in hand packets, they cross over an optical reader that tells the machine what it's dealing. I'm not aware of the optical reader being used (for tracking bonuses or creating a hand log) anywhere for 3CP, but it could be. (It's often used on PaiGow Poker; it's the same machine programmed for a different game.)

The shuffler manufacturer guarantees their software is random, goes through a certification process that includes a physical seal on the chip insertion that contains the shuffling instructions, and the machines are checked regularly by independent regulators to insure the seal is intact and the software un-tampered with.

As other folks said above, the game has a high enough house edge that they don't need to make the game even worse through cheating you or manipulating the hands. They make all they need by 1) forcing you to act first and 2) not fully paying your hand when they have a bad one (dealer qualifying) and 3) not paying you fully (true odds) on your best hands (this on both the main game and all the sidebets, separately).

No question the game can run bad for many hands at a time. No question you see similar cards in other players' hands on successive deals (keeping in mind there are 2 decks in rotation). Cards just run that way sometimes.

Thank you. I appreciate the insight into shuffler regs and payouts. Cheers.

Okay. Has anything changed in the last 5 months. I'm heading back to Vegas. I have low expectations for 3cp and will only play as entertainment if at all. I will prolly stick to blackjack and maybe try baccarat. Is bac worth my time?

Oan: I still believe the house will do whatever it takes to gain any advantage over the players...... The New England Patriots can get away with anything when they are the ones creating the regs.

Is baccarat worth your time? Well, if you don't bet the tie, it has a relatively low house edge, so that's good. But the bigger question is: is it fun for you to play? Only you can answer that.

Personally, I played (mini) baccarat once and didn't really enjoy it much. If I'm doing -EV gambling, I'd much rather play craps or pai gow poker, even given the worse edge. But that's me. So I say go play it and see if you like it.

Quote: wakeace

Okay. Has anything changed in the last 5 months. I'm heading back to Vegas. I have low expectations for 3cp and will only play as entertainment if at all. I will prolly stick to blackjack and maybe try baccarat. Is bac worth my time?

Oan: I still believe the house will do whatever it takes to gain any advantage over the players...... The New England Patriots can get away with anything when they are the ones creating the regs.

As others have pointed out for a small recap: 3cp has a 3.2% house edge, which is .032, if you're playing with correct basic strategy. 3cp has some surprisingly wild variance as I've seen my hand "not qualify" for 20 some hands in a row, and I have also in fact seen the dealers hand not qualify for about 20 hands in a row. Anything you see in 1, 2, or even 50 sessions is pretty erroneous because you don't have a large enough sampling size to determine any kind of biases. Blackjack 'generally' has a house edge "around" .5%, which again is .005. Example, you bet $100, and play perfect basic strategy... in THE LONG RUN (hundreds of thousands of hands) you'll on average lose 100*(-.005) = $0.50, per hand. This is your Expected Value (EV) which you'll see talked about a lot on these forums.

EV = TotalWagered*HouseEdge

Moving forward... Blackjack, Craps, and Baccarat are the 3 lowest house edge games in the casino (typically) when playing basic strategy for the games. In the long run of life you're going to 100% guaranteed lose in any of these games so long as you're not playing with an advantage (card counting in blackjack for example). So pick which ones are the most fun for you and play them for what they are to you, entertainment.