Are casinos barking up the wrong tree?
The only problem with this thinking is that with the sole exception of Reno/Tahoe, casinos are sited in places no one would otherwise travel to voluntarily: mosquito-ridden steambaths (Tunica, Shreveport, Biloxi), urban wastelands in the final stages of decay (AC, Detroit, Gary), Indian rezzes in the middle of freakin' nowhere (Foxwoods/Mo, most Indian casinos in the Midwest), and of course, the sun-blasted wasteland of Vegas. (The reason, of course, is the cheap land, desperate labor force, and sweetheart tax deals available in such places.) So the casino corporations are fooling themselves if they think that people go to their casinos for any other reason than to gamble--sure, there are SOME people who are there just to see a show and pig out at the buffet, but they're in the tiny minority.
So given that the primary, "core" product remains GAMBLING, why do you think everything has been tightened up? Couldn't any given casino--or casino group--bust the competition by offering decent slots and video poker, 3:2 BJ, 20X odds on craps, low limits, a decent player's club, etc. etc. etc.? And if so, why don't they do that, i.e., turn themselves back into CASINOS, not "destination resorts"?
I think that particularly now, as we enter the middle of the Second Great Depression (which will last a decade or more), a value-oriented, this-is-a-place-to-gamble-goddammit approach would work well. In short, we need more Benny Binion's Horseshoes and less Arias.
Quote: mkl654321
So given that the primary, "core" product remains GAMBLING, why do you think everything has been tightened up? Couldn't any given casino--or casino group--bust the competition by offering decent slots and video poker, 3:2 BJ, 20X odds on craps, low limits, a decent player's club, etc. etc. etc.?
I think, in places like Vegas, there are just not enough people that give a damn. They come here to have good time, not jump from one casino to another looking for the best paytable. Most, I am sure, can't even tell the difference. Some can, but don't care. A few can and do ... but the casinos must figure there's just not enough of them to justify the drop in house edge for everyone.
Places like Foxwoods are a little different. The problem here is there is no competition. About the only choice for anyone living in New England, and parts of NY is go to Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun or just not go anywhere.
Quote: thlfIt is just like most any other business or the gov't. Ten years ago the average state sales tax was about 5%, now it is approaching 10%. Why, because they expanded and spent more and they don't know how to cut to bring it back down. Same with the casino's, they grew, expanded, therefore spent more, and the only way they know how to go back is to increase there own take. God forbid someone would have to cut there buddy out of a job and more likely a full blown department of many jobs to get spending down. Instead they just pass the cost along. This is the american way.
I agree with you, but I stll ask--why doesn't somebody buck the trend? I know that in Vegas, somebody doing that might have wound up in a shallow hole in the desert, but that doesn't happen any more (now, it's a DEEP hole).
Last trip I was more vigilant concerning such things. I played very little VP, because the pay tables just weren't good enough. The thing is I gambled more last trip because, a) I had more money avialble, b) I played more table games like PGP and craps and c) I stayed a day longer than on previous trips. So overall I didn't reduce my gamblign expenses.
Of course my action is so small, it won't register even as a blip. But add up more gamblers like me and it does register. How many others disatisfied with VP pay tables spent money on other games instead?
The only one that COULD buck the trend if they wanted too, would be a Benny Binion. The rest are just faceless corporations, and they understand that "the masses" do not care.
I went to the Motor City Casino on Jan 2nd, and it was packed. The Craps table paid 3x on the field, and 31x on the props. Slightly better deal. But that Casino is owned not by a major corp, but, I think, the owner of the Hockey Team in town. So, he can set the rules how he wants.
Why would anyone in the major corp's CUT thier potential income by offering a better deal to gamblers? Especially penny ante guys like us?
SFB
So, I am travelling to gamble. And, the rules of the game I am playing are a factor in where I choose to go. Right now, the choice is pretty simple for me. Beau Rivage in Biloxi is a very nice place, and has a mini Vegas casino feel to it. The IP casino is also very nice. There are another 3 or 4 casinos that are within an easy shuttle ride. And the craps rules are probably the best in the nation for the player. So when I am looking to play craps, I look here.
My wife and I really enjoy Vegas too. There is so much to see and do. However, the craps rules are not as favorable as MS rules. Sure you can find games that are better than the strip, but even those games are not as good as MS (Biloxi, Tunica). My rooms are comped and so far I have never had to pay the resort fee, but that would be the last of me, if I have to pay a resort fee.
Tunica has good craps rules like Beau, but it is 4 casinos in the middle of nowhere. There is NOTHING else to do there, and you need to ride a shuttle from casino to your room. Not a place where I feel my wife can go back to the room while I play craps all night long. I am sure she would be safe, but it just feels weird.
West VA has a casino that is within 6 hour driving distance, as does PA. The PA casino craps rules are about the same as Vegas, at least the buy 4/10 is vig on win.
AC is a quick flight, but their craps rules are terrible, and I dislike dealing with the attitudes, so I choose to not go there EVER.
I have not been to Foxwoods in a LONG time. I liked it there, but table minimums were HIGH. I did not play craps at the time, so I have no idea if their craps game is a good one or not for the player.
I get offers for free trips to Cable Beach, Bahamas based on play there, but I have never been back. Their craps rules stink, and their attitudes can get close to those found in AC (maybe it is the Atlantic ocean air). The airport is also a PITA. But more than anything, even when you are fully comped, you still have to pay a mandatory daily towel and activity fee.So even though the beach is awesome and the weather great, it is not a place I will consider going. The fee isn't that much, so I'm not sure why it irritates me so much.
The point to my post is, for me, the rules of the craps game does have a bearing on where I go. IF Vegas strip had the rules of MS, I would really struggle with where to go. But right now Vegas makes it easy for me to decide to go elsewhere. We go to Vegas for other things, and I do gamble a lot while I am there, but when I am jonesing for a craps game, that is not where I think of first.
Cost to get to the game is the biggest factor though, since even the poor craps rules will cost me less than flights or gas. When I have to pay it is hard to pass up the closest game, even if the rules are bad. So I have to believe the casinos are looking at the tolerance of their closest players. In the case of Biloxi and Tunica, they need to draw gamblers in, and they do it with favorable rules, at least with craps.
Would Vegas strip see more craps players by adopting MS rules? Probably not, so there is no incentive to give away the money they are getting now.
Quote: mkl654321Over the last decade or so, casinos in the US, particularly in Las Vegas, have drastically tightened up their games. The house hold on slots, VP, BJ, and many other games is double or more what it used to be not so long ago. This seems to be a deliberate policy, based on the casinos' being supposed "destination resorts" where the customer is sheared via overpriced hotel rooms, food, entertainment, etc., and gambling is only secondary. Therefore since gambling is no longer the primary attractant, there is no need to offer decent games, because (so the theory goes) people aren't there to gamble so much as to enjoy the "resort ambiance".
The only problem with this thinking is that with the sole exception of Reno/Tahoe, casinos are sited in places no one would otherwise travel to voluntarily: mosquito-ridden steambaths (Tunica, Shreveport, Biloxi), urban wastelands in the final stages of decay (AC, Detroit, Gary), Indian rezzes in the middle of freakin' nowhere (Foxwoods/Mo, most Indian casinos in the Midwest), and of course, the sun-blasted wasteland of Vegas. (The reason, of course, is the cheap land, desperate labor force, and sweetheart tax deals available in such places.) So the casino corporations are fooling themselves if they think that people go to their casinos for any other reason than to gamble--sure, there are SOME people who are there just to see a show and pig out at the buffet, but they're in the tiny minority.
So given that the primary, "core" product remains GAMBLING, why do you think everything has been tightened up? Couldn't any given casino--or casino group--bust the competition by offering decent slots and video poker, 3:2 BJ, 20X odds on craps, low limits, a decent player's club, etc. etc. etc.? And if so, why don't they do that, i.e., turn themselves back into CASINOS, not "destination resorts"?
I think that particularly now, as we enter the middle of the Second Great Depression (which will last a decade or more), a value-oriented, this-is-a-place-to-gamble-goddammit approach would work well. In short, we need more Benny Binion's Horseshoes and less Arias.
It doesn't really work except for the locals. That why Sam's Town, Palms, Red Rock, Santa Fe do OK with the local support while the masses still flock to the strip, even though there is a huge gambling edge offstrip.
Quote: SFBWhy would anyone in the major corp's CUT thier potential income by offering a better deal to gamblers? Especially penny ante guys like us?
You'd have to show them that the rules improvements do NOT cut their potential income. If better rules draw in disproportionately more players (or more $$ from the same player count), then the house actually benefits by offering better rules.
Long term, I wonder if that isn't where "destination" gambling venues will have to try to get to. It seems like the rules in LV and AC will have to be at least a little better than they are at local casinos in other cities - otherwise there's no incentive to go to LV or AC. Why would I pay $500 to fly to LV and pay $150/night to stay in LV to play the same 8/5 JOB paytables that I can find 15 miles from my house? Over a 3 day trip, I'd have $1000 more to play with if I gambled locally. Now, maybe I'd go to Vegas to play (and support their economy in other ways) if I could find a 9/6 JOB or NSUD game there but not at home...
The one thing the mob always knew is that Las Vegas in the middle of a big freakin' desert. When the mob ran things people were told straight out: Everything starts with the casino because there is no reason anyone will come to the desert for the hotel room or the food or the broads.
The MBA types of corporate casino ownership seem to have forgotten that lesson. Oh sure, the hotels are impressive, the food is award winning, and the broads are often total knock-outs, but its still the middle of the desert.
So I think what has changed is the Binion attitude of a good steak, a good gamble and a good broad has been morphed into those What Happens In Vegas Stays In Vegas commercials. NONE of those commercials were filmed in a casino. They were filmed in homes and at swimming pools. Las Vegas became "an Experience". It became Sin City... a place to let loose. It became a place to take a vacation rather than take a bundle and turn it into a larger bundle.
And gambling changed too. It was no longer craps or craps and blackjack ... it was all slot machines. Slots were insulting to real gamblers long ago, now for many people playing a slot machine is not an example of gambling it is the definition of gambling.
I understand that there have been substantial changes in the recreational drug industry over the years. There seems to have some changes in gambling too.
So just as drug seekers must search out a drug dealer, gamblers must seek out a casino. Casinos have changed to meet the needs of the customers.
We would love to invoke the spirit of Benny Binion, but alas: He already swept up the peanut shells, he already swept up the sawdust, he already put down carpet and hired broads to hand out free drinks. After the MBAs finished turning everything into a Profit Center, rooms pretty much have to make money, so do restaurants, so do the bars, the clubs, the shows.
Sure the Venetian makes most of its money from gambling but face it, its the worst place for slots (other than the airport or the county jail).
What is the use of reviving Benny Binion? Its not just that he is dead. His customers are dead too.
Tunica gambling means going to a muggy cotton field and pressing a little red button. Biloxi gambling means going to a muggy town and pressing a little red button. Indian gambling means a short drive and pressing a little red button.
Oh sure, some blackjack still exists and poker rooms and stuff like that, but in reality Vegas is an IMAGE town now. Put out a Single Green Roulette wheel and everybody will walk right past it on their way to a slot machine or a trendy bar or a trendy pool party.
So offering a better gamble now is not as tempting as it was in Binions day.
Quote: mkl654321Over the last decade or so, casinos in the US, particularly in Las Vegas, have drastically tightened up their games. The house hold on slots, VP, BJ, and many other games is double or more what it used to be not so long ago.
So given that the primary, "core" product remains GAMBLING, why do you think everything has been tightened up? Couldn't any given casino--or casino group--bust the competition by offering decent slots and video poker, 3:2 BJ, 20X odds on craps, low limits, a decent player's club, etc. etc. etc.? And if so, why don't they do that, i.e., turn themselves back into CASINOS, not "destination resorts"?
I think that particularly now, as we enter the middle of the Second Great Depression (which will last a decade or more), a value-oriented, this-is-a-place-to-gamble-goddammit approach would work well. In short, we need more Benny Binion's Horseshoes and less Arias.
I often take charter flights from Bellingham (WA) to Vegas and when I stand in line and look around I realize I'm probably the youngest person getting on the plane, and I'm in my 40's. The majoity of these people are retirement age and I'm sure that most of them are going to spend their time at a bank of slots or sit in front of a Keno blower once they get there. When I do sit at table games in Vegas (which isn't too often) it is obvious that most of the players (BJ in particular) really have little or no idea what they're doing and make some of the silliest decisions you can imagine. 00 Roulette tables are full and craps players are throwing money on the horn and hard ways like there's no tomorrow. Everyone wants their free drinks and comps and they want to feel special. There are casinos popping up all over the place and many people have options they didn't have even 5 or 10 years ago... but they still flock to Vegas and to a lesser degree AC. I disagree that these people are looking (or even hoping) for games with better payouts as most of them know nothing about the math of the game. They just want to scratch that gambling itch and they want to do it in a place where the lights flash brighter, the hotels are bigger and the surroundings are glitzier.
The majority of people who frequent this site know the difference between 6:5 and 3:2 and they care about this difference. We know the "good" VP games versus the not so good ones. We would cross the street to get a .6% decrease in house edge.
There's a big difference between the average recreational gambler and you/us. Casinos know that the players will play and that's why they keep tightening games. That's why they have 00 roulette. That's why they have full 6:5 BJ tables. Just because you know the difference and you care about this difference and like to use phrases like "shearing the masses" and you have big chip on your shoulder about it doesn't mean that things will change. They won't change because the masses don't care. It's not that much different from people who say that a non-smoking casino would make more money if only they'd be the first to be brave (or smart) enough to do it. They say this because they don't like to play in a smoky casino and therefore think that there must be countless others who feel the same way. Apparently this isn't the case or someone would have done it.
I used to work in the cruise industry and for years people complained about the smoking. Carnival Cruise Line (the biggest in the world at the time) actually made one of their ships non-smoking, advertised this like crazy and then sat and watched a half-full ship lose money for a year. It didn't work. People still complain about the smoking but there just aren't enough of these complainers to make it worthwhile to cater to them. I would argue that the same case can be made for casinos. I would go so far as to suggest that for the few informed players who would take their business to a casino that offers better odds, the casino would not see any financial benefit.
Every table game is a -EV game. People are going to lose money. People don't fly to Vegas to play +EV games so that 1% difference only means they'll lose their money a little bit faster. If every VP game was +EV and everyone played perfect strategy then very soon there would be no VP at all. That's never going to happen and neither will anyone's pipe dream about casinos becoming looser.
I go into ALOT of casinos, and some are like how you described. Sam's Town in Vegas has 20x odds on craps, full pay positive video poker, and low limits with a decent players club and good promotions and offers. (Gold Coast is pretty good, too). The problem is most people don't seem to know, or care, about the good games. Other operators see the Strip doing okay with their 6:5, and they wonder why they should even offer better games. The bad game creep spreads to just off-strip, and then further out. I was at the Gold Coast recently and all of their 16/10 Deuces machines were empty. NO ONE was playing them; they were all playing super quadrupuble bonus megash*t. I think the question is not why don't casinos offer better games, but do people really care about better games? Besides the people on this board, I would wager not many.Quote: mkl654321So given that the primary, "core" product remains GAMBLING, why do you think everything has been tightened up? Couldn't any given casino--or casino group--bust the competition by offering decent slots and video poker, 3:2 BJ, 20X odds on craps, low limits, a decent player's club, etc. etc. etc.? And if so, why don't they do that, i.e., turn themselves back into CASINOS, not "destination resorts"?
The Pennyslvania casinos have had to implement standard rules across all their casinos that are pretty player-favorable. I'm sure they hate doing this, and as soon as the regulations are lifted (which they will be), they will go straight to offering trash.
Quote: teddysI go into ALOT of casinos, and some are like how you described. Sam's Town in Vegas has 20x odds on craps, full pay positive video poker, and low limits with a decent players club and good promotions and offers.
I knew about craps, but not about the VP. Did you notice any multi-line machines with full pay Deuces Wild? I'd make the trip all the way out there for that. For jacks or better, too.
Quote: mkl654321So given that the primary, "core" product remains GAMBLING, why do you think everything has been tightened up? Couldn't any given casino--or casino group--bust the competition by offering decent slots and video poker, 3:2 BJ, 20X odds on craps, low limits, a decent player's club, etc. etc. etc.? And if so, why don't they do that, i.e., turn themselves back into CASINOS, not "destination resorts"?
I think that particularly now, as we enter the middle of the Second Great Depression (which will last a decade or more), a value-oriented, this-is-a-place-to-gamble-goddammit approach would work well. In short, we need more Benny Binion's Horseshoes and less Arias.
It is a 3 stage problem:
1. Most people don't understand the difference between 6:5 and 3:2 BJ, nor any other game. I would venture that there are some people out there who flock to 6:5 over 3:2 the same as they buy 5 for $1 products in the grocery store instead of the same product that cost $.18.
2. Of those who do know, a good bit of what is left do not care. I have friends who flat-out said they didn't care and wouldn't walk across a room let alone the strip for 3:2.
3. The casino really doesn't want the business of the 3:2 player.
It is easy to forget this when you spend time with others on this site. It can be like the McGovern Voter who could not understand the landslide loss because "everyone I knew voted for him!"
Quote: AZDuffmanIt is a 3 stage problem:
1. Most people don't understand the difference between 6:5 and 3:2 BJ, nor any other game.
Thats the whole thing in a nutshell. Go into the MGM on a Sat night and you'll find a few roulette tables with $25 min's and they'll be crowded. Go further into the casino and you'll find a single zero table with a $25 min and no players. Its because most people don't know the house edge on a single zero wheel is roughly half what it is on a double zero. And they don't trust it, they actually think its harder to win on a single zero wheel. I kid you not.
Quote: EvenBobThats the whole thing in a nutshell. Go into the MGM on a Sat night and you'll find a few roulette tables with $25 min's and they'll be crowded. Go further into the casino and you'll find a single zero table with a $25 min and no players. Its because most people don't know the house edge on a single zero wheel is roughly half what it is on a double zero. And they don't trust it, they actually think its harder to win on a single zero wheel. I kid you not.
Or almost 1/4 the edge on the even-money bets: on my last trip, I confirmed with the floor that the MGM single-zero wheel offers partage where you get half your bet back if a zero shows. They didn't know the French name for it, but they did confirm that a zero returns half your wager.
I wonder if their loyalty program is on top of that. A $25 single-zero/partage player is worth only 28% more than a $5 double-zero player, but it's conceivable that comps could be worth 400% more in which case playing green is very much worth your while.
Quote: EvenBobThats the whole thing in a nutshell. Go into the MGM on a Sat night and you'll find a few roulette tables with $25 min's and they'll be crowded. Go further into the casino and you'll find a single zero table with a $25 min and no players. Its because most people don't know the house edge on a single zero wheel is roughly half what it is on a double zero. And they don't trust it, they actually think its harder to win on a single zero wheel. I kid you not.
I am ashamed to admit roulette was the first table game I had the guts to try. I really only played it one weekend at one place. But I would have understood 00 being worse than 0.
I seriously wonder if casinos are so powerful they put some kind of "stupid potion" in the water with the flouride at the treatment plant. Some of the nonsense I hear and people are so serious it works. It is impossible the rest of the world is playing one big joke on me. This number being better than that one, whatever it is. I'm not asking for people to be able to calculate the house edge, but at least say you just "like" to bet a number and that is what you do. Don't give me nonsense that it is due or the wheel likes you to bet it.
The week I played I was down to my last $10. My airline seat the first leg was 10A and the arrival gate at the connection was A10. So I put all $10 on and around $10. It hit! But I knew it was chance (not "luck.")
Side note, we were all in seperate groups but my boss tells me "nice hit" but is looking at me like, "WTF do I have for a manager up there?" I didn't even see him watching.
Player ignorance is extreme. Dealer ignorance isn't all that rare either. Now I admit: if there are two smokin' hot babes sitting at a table, some of the men who sit down to play won't know what game they are playing. If the dealer is gorgeous the passersby may not even see much less read that placard about the BJ rules or realize its roulette or baccarat. There are other considerations than "house edge" from time to time. Tables along the aisle do better than interior tables because women on the make choose highly visible seats. Tables where players have drinks do better than places where the glasses are empty or not in evidence at all. Cigarette smoke is often a factor. People don't always whip out a slide rule and choose the lowest house edge game.Quote: EvenBobIts because most people don't know the house edge on a single zero wheel is roughly half what it is on a double zero. And they don't trust it.
But a fundamental ignorance of what the game is can astound the other players. I think half the players believe that stuff about pumped in oxygen. Many players clearly know that 6 is twice as big as 3 and will laugh at you if you tell them 3:2 is better than 6:5. When players have paid 300.00 for a bottle in a nightclub I guess its not surprising that they are too stupid to ask "whats trump" when they approach the craps table.
Quote: FleaStiffBut a fundamental ignorance of what the game is can astound the other players. I think half the players believe that stuff about pumped in oxygen. Many players clearly know that 6 is twice as big as 3 and will laugh at you if you tell them 3:2 is better than 6:5. When players have paid 300.00 for a bottle in a nightclub I guess its not surprising that they are too stupid to ask "whats trump" when they approach the craps table.
The nightclub thing is part of the problem. The "clubbers" do not care about odds and only care that the casino is there in the first place to draw crowds to the club. I had a roommate we talked about hitting Vegas once. He cracked that we would not see each other from check-in to check-out since he would want to go to the clubs and be out all night and I would want to gamble and be in bed at 10. Thing is he was right! You could comp me to the hottest club with free bottle service all night and I would be in and out after a shot or two of Johnnie Walker Blue assuming I would bother to show up at all. I may be a bad exampler as I never liked clubs and unless it was 80s night would not enjoy the music. But my roommate's friends were the same way. Why sit at a table watching cards? BORING to them.
Yes, it is now simply a resort that happens to have casinos. But what seems to be happening with that is the same that happened to GM in the 1980s when they decided to be a hybrid-bank that happened to have an auto-manufacturing division.
Quote: AZDuffmanYou could comp me to the hottest club with free bottle service all night and I would be in and out after a shot or two of Johnnie Walker Blue assuming I would bother to show up at all. .
I've been going to Vegas since the 70's and have never been in a club of any kind, I could care less. I go there to gamble and eat, thats all. My wife has dragged me to different museums over the years but I didn't like it. There is not enough time to eat and play, how can there be time for the other time wasting junk.
Quote: EvenBobIts because most people don't know the house edge on a single zero wheel is roughly half what it is on a double zero. And they don't trust it, they actually think its harder to win on a single zero wheel. I kid you not.
But... but.. there's an extra space to win.
On one hand, I have trouble believing all of this. On the other, I play whatever the hell I want to when I go to the casino, so I shouldn't really have any trouble; I play 3 Card and P+, which is a worse bet than 6-5 BJ. On the third hand, though, if 6/5 BJ was next to 3/2, or I had a choice of 0 or 00 roulette, I wouldn't pick the worse bet. (In fact, last time at Borgata, I played Let it Ride Bonus instead of 3 Card, because the Pairs+ bet on LiRB was the 6/4 pay table, 2.38% house edge rather than the 6/3 at 3 Card, 7% house edge! [Borgata also has the most advantageous pay table for the base game, 2.9% house edge.])
As far as the original question, I've thought about it a while, and I really don't know enough about Las Vegas to say anything worthwhile. I've only been there the one time. And I don't think that Las Vegas is the same as casino gambling everywhere else, so my experience in PA, NJ, NY and IL doesn't really translate.
But if the people pay and play, then it's not going away. As a tourist, I loved the heck out of my time on the strip; if I'm taking one trip to experience Las Vegas, it's sure as hell not going to be wasted searching out the last percent or two of edge on a couple $25 bets, it's going to be wasted on as much freaking glitz and gaudiness I can subject my eyes and ears and nose and fingers to, and what the hell, my mouth and balls if Mrs would let me.
For those here that are the advantage players, it's a real dilemma, and if I lived there and gambled there frequently, I'd feel the same way. Where I play, BJ is still 3/2, Craps doesn't have the Big 6/8, and there never were any 0 wheels anyhow. But if it's out there, it's coming here, and then I'll have to make some decisions. What I think is that the economics of the whole place really is toward courting the "Happens in Vegas" crowd, and that the old Vegas couldn't sustain. But at this point, I'm just projecting from ignorance. I don't see an answer for you guys, sorry.
Quote: EvenBobI've been going to Vegas since the 70's and have never been in a club of any kind, I could care less. I go there to gamble and eat, thats all. My wife has dragged me to different museums over the years but I didn't like it. There is not enough time to eat and play, how can there be time for the other time wasting junk.
I would see a Rat Pack or Elvis review and that is it, though that is more a show than a club. My parents came cross-country with my bother to visit in AZ and we went to Vegas and CA. My mother was in disbelief that I didn't care about any show. Well, there was not a show I cared about and I wasn't dropping cash to see a show to say I saw a show. I think I played $3 BJ with some dude who lived in the same city as I did in WNY. Small world.
Sam's Town isn't great for multiline. For multiline DW I would recommend Rampart (where we were last time) and South Point. For multiline JOB I would recommend Palms. Gold Coast also has Multistrike which is a pretty fun variation that adds .20% to the return (with strategy adjustments).Quote: NareedI knew about craps, but not about the VP. Did you notice any multi-line machines with full pay Deuces Wild? I'd make the trip all the way out there for that. For jacks or better, too.
Quote: teddysSam's Town isn't great for multiline. For multiline DW I would recommend Rampart (where we were last time) and South Point. For multiline JOB I would recommend Palms. Gold Coast also has Multistrike which is a pretty fun variation that adds .20% to the return (with strategy adjustments).
Thanks!
Rampart's too hard to get to without a car. I'm not sure about wouth Point. But I'll check out the Palms.
Quote: SFBWhy would anyone in the major corp's CUT thier potential income by offering a better deal to gamblers? Especially penny ante guys like us?
Because offering a better deal could easily RAISE income. Gamblers (especially these days) tend to have a fixed, or at least limited, budget. If a "penny-ante" gambler gets ten hours of fun at Joint X, where he only got five hours of fun at Joint Y (for the same action), which would he want to return to?
Quote: NareedI knew about craps, but not about the VP. Did you notice any multi-line machines with full pay Deuces Wild? I'd make the trip all the way out there for that. For jacks or better, too.
There is no such thing any more as multi-line fullpay Deuces Wild. You can still find multi-line NSUD, but you have to look pretty hard. The Rampart is probably the best place for that game, with ten-play .10 NSUD, .25% cashback, and frequent double point days. The Palms also has .25/.50/1.00 NSUD triple play, with .25% free play (never multiplied, ever).
With perfect play, these games will return 99.98%, and on double point days at the Rampart, will return 100.23%.
9/6 JOB multi-liners are easy to find, in just about anyplace but a Strip megatoilet.
Quote: mkl654321Because offering a better deal could easily RAISE income. Gamblers (especially these days) tend to have a fixed, or at least limited, budget. If a "penny-ante" gambler gets ten hours of fun at Joint X, where he only got five hours of fun at Joint Y (for the same action), which would he want to return to?
But there is also the strategy of "If we can take all his money, we don't need to wait for him to return."
Too little competition is very bad, but too much competition isn't always good either. Vegas Strip has a lot of tourists and so many casinos people don't even bother to make informed choices. In such an environment, aggressive high-hold approach appears to bring more cash in, at least short-term, and long-term... it will take a lot of time for city's reputation to fade.
Sure those that are in Vegas to gamble will be returning, so the casinos avoid offending them too much, but the atmosphere is immediate income to the NonGaming Hotel and NonGaming Club and NonGaming Pool and NonGaming Restaurant. Someone who actually is a serious gambler is admired by the casino, but I think sometimes its getting to be that the gamblers are admired in the same fashion as someone admires any other museum specimen from olden days. (Okay, okay... I guess that is a bit of an exaggeration).
Quote: FleaStiffSomeone who actually is a serious gambler is admired by the casino....
I dunno about that one. I've always called an upgraded card a "sucker card", meaning I lost sight of the value of the money in pursuit of the thrill. What you wrote, that's like saying car salespeople admire the people who pay the most for their cars. "Admire" has nothing to do with it; while you're there, making you happy is their job (and it is a respectable one that many are good at), and as soon as you leave, they don't think of you at all. And they shouldn't.
Quote: MoscaWhat you wrote, that's like saying car salespeople admire the people who pay the most for their cars.
idt I'd put it that way, because you can't call someone who doesn't know how to play the game a serious gambler - so they don't overpay for what they are getting, they just take more of it. You could rather compare a serious gambler to someone who keeps buying a lot of cars, knows a bit about them, brings the price down from list but not to invoice (that would be an evil card-counter) and constantly returns to replace faded brakes and tires.
Of course, both need a good external source of income, so a compulsive gambler pushing the red button all night doesn't quite qualify. On the other hand, a medium-high roller who knows his game, tips just adequately, wins some sessions and takes losing ones well... seems like that might be the least disrespected type, though I can't tell for certain.
Quote: SFBWhy would anyone in the major corp's CUT thier potential income by offering a better deal to gamblers? Especially penny ante guys like us?
Quote: mkl654321Because offering a better deal could easily RAISE income. Gamblers (especially these days) tend to have a fixed, or at least limited, budget. If a "penny-ante" gambler gets ten hours of fun at Joint X, where he only got five hours of fun at Joint Y (for the same action), which would he want to return to?
First off, I like the thought that someone had about McGovern. We are NOT the regular pool of folks that go to LV or other places to gamble, if we hang around this site for more than three days...
Second off, I am a CPA, so, I like to follow the money as well.
The major CORPS are into "experience" selling. And "profit centers". So, the restaurant, the pool area, the Clubs, and the hotel, are to EACH make money, and money with an substansial profit built in.
The "Vegas Experience" consists of flying in for the weekend, blowing the BR, getting drunk, maybe getting some comps, and getting out of town....
What the gambling house percentage is, doesn't matter to the vast majority of visitors.
Ask at the arrival gates at the airport:
Q: What are you here to play?
A: Blackjack
Q: What kind?
A: 21, stupid!
And nowhere would you get close to a discussion about 3:2 or 6:5 payoffs.
When my wife and I flew to Vegas the first time, in 2005, we went into "Pure" the nightclub in Caesers. The Pussy Cat Dolls performed, and it was great show. We sat in one of the booths... They asked if we wanted a bottle... I reviewed the menu, and it was $300 for the cheapest.. So we stood up... and got drinks at the bar..
But I remember, there was a younger guy, maybe 25, who was in a booth. A very attractive woman with him...and a Caesars Palace attendant was nearby, attending to his needs. And he was drinking and enjoying the company of his paid date. And I just thinking that here is this computer nerd guy, getting his Vegas "experience" and this evening's going to cost him about $1k to 1.5k, and she won't even swallow....
Gambling for this guy? May have been the Texas Holdem, or BJ, or maybe the roulette wheel or even craps. If he wanted to be Frankie for the night, he could have rolled the bones... But the paytables didn't mean anything to him. He was going for an experience, and he paid for it, and had it.
That is what they are selling. The house edge doesn't matter to the vast majority of folks hitting the arrivals gate or I-15. If we were smart, we would avoid the gambling completely, because it is ALL designed to lose money. But in the movies, the star always rolls the point, or hits the number, or draws pockets aces....
And that is what they are selling.
I have learned ALOT more about LV, gambling, craps and the HA since that first trip. And I like the "experience". I will shop for a better gambling deal next time I am in LV. That is what I have learned. If I want to pay to throw the dice, I gotta have my BR, and the $$ to get there and stay. And since Delaware has craps now, I can get my Jones fixed there. But I understand now, that the HA is lower in AC.....
Quote: SFBThe "Vegas Experience" consists of flying in for the weekend, blowing the BR, getting drunk, maybe getting some comps, and getting out of town....
...but first of all, ODing on acid with a hooker, waking up in a bathtub with a mic taped to your forehead, snorting coke in the middle of a DA convention, buying the largest ape you can find, and trying to fly back right in your car.
Quote: P90...but first of all, ODing on acid with a hooker, waking up in a bathtub with a mic taped to your forehead, snorting coke in the middle of a DA convention, buying the largest ape you can find, and trying to fly back right in your car.
Do you do all of that on EVERY trip?
Quote: SFBThe "Vegas Experience" consists of flying in for the weekend, blowing the BR, getting drunk, maybe getting some comps, and getting out of town....
Well, after roughly 20 visits to Las Vegas, all of which involved casino-hotel stays and gambling, I have to say I apparently have never had the "Vegas Experience." It doesn't sound like something that would hold any interest for me, so I think I will stick with the way I have been doing it.
